Atheism, Is not believing in gods a belief or not?

[Pozessed]

Abuser Of Dictionaries, feast on this!:

be·lieve (bĭ-lēv′)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
v.tr.
1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.
v.intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
4. To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.

If you "don't do believing," then you either aren't living in this world, or you are not using the English language correctly.

Some words are obsolete. Believe is one of those words. It's not a hard concept to realize there are better words to communicate with than the ones people are accustomed to. Anytime a person uses the word believe it can be replaced with a more descriptive word that more accurately represents the dialogue. That is why I consider the word believe to be obsolete, though I do have a habit of using it, I notice I redefine my expression more often than not after I use the word believe.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Some words are obsolete. Believe is one of those words. It's not a hard concept to realize there are better words to communicate with than the ones people are accustomed to. Anytime a person uses the word believe it can be replaced with a more descriptive word that more accurately represents the dialogue. That is why I consider the word believe to be obsolete, though I do have a habit of using it, I notice I redefine my expression more often than not after I use the word believe.

That's entirely reasonable.

What is not reasonable is Frank assuming anyone using the words "guess" or "estimate" or "figure" in reference to the existence or non-existence of God is automatically committing the act of religious belief.

 

[Frank Apisa]

So, you're just making up the rules for language as you see fit. Got it.

I have not made up any rules for the language.

I simply do not use the word "believe." I use those other words...like guess, estimate and the like.

I have explained this...but you want to make it into something else.

Fine...do your best.

That, of course means we can dismiss your arguments about what "atheist" really means out of hand. You have disqualified yourself, over and over again.

No I have not.

Atheist means all sorts of things...which include "just a lack of belief in a god"...and "a very strong belief that there are no gods." My guess is almost any reasonably intelligent person would agree with me on that.

I also have offered an opinion that MOST atheists choose "atheist" as a descriptor because they tend toward "believing" there are no gods.

This is fun, Gonzo. Let's continue.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Some words are obsolete. Believe is one of those words. It's not a hard concept to realize there are better words to communicate with than the ones people are accustomed to. Anytime a person uses the word believe it can be replaced with a more descriptive word that more accurately represents the dialogue. That is why I consider the word believe to be obsolete, though I do have a habit of using it, I notice I redefine my expression more often than not after I use the word believe.

I feel that way about the word also, Pozessed. I just feel there are better words to use. And I think that some people use it to disguise some of those better words.

 

[Frank Apisa]

That's entirely reasonable.

What is not reasonable is Frank assuming anyone using the words "guess" or "estimate" or "figure" in reference to the existence or non-existence of God is automatically committing the act of religious belief.

I have stated DOZENS of times that atheism IS NOT A RELIGION IN ANY WAY.

Often it is a BELIEF...and I use "belief system" at times to designate that belief.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

I feel that way about the word also, Pozessed. I just feel there are better words to use. And I think that some people use it to disguise some of those better words.

I have stated DOZENS of times that atheism IS NOT A RELIGION IN ANY WAY.

Often it is a BELIEF...and I use "belief system" at times to designate that belief.

You believe that atheism is a belief in no god. You keep trying to hide it in shifty langage so it doesn't look like a claim that can be attacked, because you know you lack the ability to defend such a claim. In fact, everyone lacks the ability to defend such a claim, because it's an indefensible claim.

I think you know this. Which is why you cowardly slink around it. You make your claim from the shadows and then dance around the arguments that show the claim to be wrong.

And everyone sees you doing this.

These two quotes up above show you placing the burden on others as using such language to "disguise" words, and in the very next response you use the very word to implicitly make your claim! That's like calling snipers cowards for shooting from cover while you are shooting back from cover.

 

[Frank Apisa]

You believe that atheism is a belief in no god.

No I don't. I do not do "believing." I am of the opinion that MOST atheists do have a belief that there are no gods.

You keep trying to hide it in shifty langage so it doesn't look like a claim that can be attacked, because you know you lack the ability to defend such a claim. In fact, everyone lacks the ability to defend such a claim, because it's an indefensible claim.

In your dreams.

I think you know this. Which is why you cowardly slink around it. You make your claim from the shadows and then dance around the arguments that show the claim to be wrong.

More name calling. You ought to grow up and get over that.

And everyone sees you doing this.

You do not speak for "everyone."

These two quotes up above show you placing the burden on others as using such language to "disguise" words, and in the very next response you use the very word to implicitly make your claim! That's like calling snipers cowards for shooting from cover while you are shooting back from cover.

It is my opinion that MOST atheists use the designation "atheist" because they have an active belief that there are no gods.

Deal with it...or not...as you choose.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

No I don't. I do not do "believing." I am of the opinion that MOST atheists do have a belief that there are no gods.





In your dreams.



More name calling. You ought to grow up and get over that.



You do not speak for "everyone."



It is my opinion that MOST atheists use the designation "atheist" because they have an active belief that there are no gods.

Deal with it...or not...as you choose.

But what if they just "guess" there is no god? What if it's their "opinion" there is no god? What if they "expect" there is no god?

You aren't the sole arbiter of the word "believe", Frank. The dictionaries you use to (incorrectly) support your position on the word "atheist" completely countermand you on the word "belief".

 

[Frank Apisa]

But what if they just "guess" there is no god? What if it's their "opinion" there is no god? What if they "expect" there is no god?

Okay. I expect that is what they are doing. So...like theists they guess about the answer to the question, "Are there gods involved in the true nature of the REALITY of existence? They guess the opposite way from theists.

Or they are "of the opinion" that there no gods involved in the true nature of the REALITY of existence...which of course, is the opposite of the theist who are of the opinion that there are.

All of this in counterpoint to "I do not know and do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess."

So...what is your point?

You aren't the sole arbiter of the word "believe", Frank.

Nor have I ever suggested I am.

The dictionaries you use to (incorrectly) support your position on the word "atheist"...

What???

Here are two of the dictionaries I use TO CORRECTLY support my position on the word "atheist."

Cambridge Dictionary
someone who believes that God does not exist

atheist Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary


MacMillan Dictionary
the belief or theory that God does not exist

atheism American English definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

How can you possibly suggest that does not support my position on the word "atheist?"

...completely countermand you on the word "belief".

Not at all. I am in agreement with most of the definitions of the word "belief."

I just do not use the word when expressing conviction; a guess; supposition; estimation.

I do not do "believing."

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Okay. I expect that is what they are doing. So...like theists they guess about the answer to the question, "Are there gods involved in the true nature of the REALITY of existence? They guess the opposite way from theists.

Or they are "of the opinion" that there no gods involved in the true nature of the REALITY of existence...which of course, is the opposite of the theist who are of the opinion that there are.

All of this in counterpoint to "I do not know and do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess."

So...what is your point?




Nor have I ever suggested I am.





What???

Here are two of the dictionaries I use TO CORRECTLY support my position on the word "atheist."

Cambridge Dictionary
someone who believes that God does not exist

atheist Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary


MacMillan Dictionary
the belief or theory that God does not exist

atheism American English definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

How can you possibly suggest that does not support my position on the word "atheist?"




Not at all. I am in agreement with most of the definitions of the word "belief."

I just do not use the word when expressing conviction; a guess; supposition; estimation.

I do not do "believing."

People who "guess" there is a god don't actually "believe" there is a god, according to your tortured use of the word.

That is the problem you can't seem to see.

 

[Frank Apisa]

People who "guess" there is a god don't actually "believe" there is a god, according to your tortured use of the word.

Wake up, Gonzo. A "guess" only turns into a "belief" when designated a "belief."

If I say, "I guess there is no life of any sort on any planet or planetoid in our solar system other than Earth"...I am stating a guess. I am doing guessing.

If I say, "I believe there is no life of any sort on any planet or planetoid in our solar system other than Earth"...I am stating a "belief." I am doing "believing."

I often do guessing...I never do "believing."

Get with it. I've explained that often enough for you to get it.

That is the problem you can't seem to see.

Worry about what you are unwilling to see...rather than thinking I have a problem with seeing. You'll be much better off.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Wake up, Gonzo. A "guess" only turns into a "belief" when designated a "belief."

So people only belong to belief systems if they call it a belief system?

Awesome. I'm glad we finally got that settled.

 

[Frank Apisa]

So people only belong to belief systems if they call it a belief system?

Awesome. I'm glad we finally got that settled.

Still playing games.

Okay. That's allowed. And it is fun.

I sometimes talk to my playing partners about this during the round...and tell them TRUTHFULLY that I cannot wait to get home and see where the discussion has taken us to.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Still playing games.

Okay. That's allowed. And it is fun.

I sometimes talk to my playing partners about this during the round...and tell them TRUTHFULLY that I cannot wait to get home and see where the discussion has taken us to.

Just so we're clear, this means that an atheist doesn't engage in "belief" unless that atheist specifically says they have a belief that god does not exist.

This is, essentially, what you just said of theists.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Just so we're clear, this means that an atheist doesn't engage in "belief" unless that atheist specifically says they have a belief that god does not exist.

This is, essentially, what you just said of theists.

Tell ya what...I'll grant you that.

Yup...unless the atheist actually says "I believe there are no gods"...it really is not a belief.

It may be a guess...or may be a thought that is absent altogether.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Tell ya what...I'll grant you that.

Yup...unless the atheist actually says "I believe there are no gods"...it really is not a belief.

It may be a guess...or may be a thought that is absent altogether.

So, an atheist can say, "I'm pretty sure there aren't any gods," and that atheist isn't doing any believing. That atheist isn't engaging in a belief system of any kind.

 

[Frank Apisa]

So, an atheist can say, "I'm pretty sure there aren't any gods," and that atheist isn't doing any believing. That atheist isn't engaging in a belief system of any kind.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

...we did it, guys. We finally did it.

Now be sure to bookmark this page for when Frank starts claiming atheists "believe" there is no god agsin.

You guys are the real heroes.

 

[Frank Apisa]

...we did it, guys. We finally did it.

Now be sure to bookmark this page for when Frank starts claiming atheists "believe" there is no god agsin.

You guys are the real heroes.

Most do.

At least that is the way I see it.

What is the big deal?

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Most do.

At least that is the way I see it.

What is the big deal?

According to this definitional thing of yours, someone who says they KNOW there is NO god is not engaged in any kind of belief, as well as someone who says they KNOW there IS a god is not engaged in any kind of belief.

You don't know anyone who says they "believe there is no god". You may know people who "think" there is no god, who "guess" there is no god," who "reason" there is no god, who make probabilistic arguments that conclude god is "very unlikely," and, last but not least, people who "DO NOT BELIEVE" there is a god.

But you don't know a single person who "believes there is NO god".

 

[Frank Apisa]

According to this definitional thing of yours, someone who says they KNOW there is NO god is not engaged in any kind of belief, as well as someone who says they KNOW there IS a god is not engaged in any kind of belief.

Not so.

But I will give you this: If a person is saying he/she KNOWS there are no gods...that person is lying and is just blindly guessing.

There is NO way to KNOW there are no gods.

But I agree...a person guessing there are no gods...is not "believing" there are no gods.

You don't know anyone who says they "believe there is no god".

Where did that come from?

I certainly know several people who say, "I believe there are no gods."

You may know people who "think" there is no god, who "guess" there is no god," who "reason" there is no god, who make probabilistic arguments that conclude god is "very unlikely," and, last but not least, people who "DO NOT BELIEVE" there is a god.

I know people like all of those things...plus I know people who state emphatically that they believe there are no gods.

But you don't know a single person who "believes there is NO god".

Sez you.

And you are wrong.

There are people right here in this forum who say it.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Not so.

But I will give you this: If a person is saying he/she KNOWS there are no gods...that person is lying and is just blindly guessing.

There is NO way to KNOW there are no gods.

But I agree...a person guessing there are no gods...is not "believing" there are no gods.



Where did that come from?

I certainly know several people who say, "I believe there are no gods."





I know people like all of those things...plus I know people who state emphatically that they believe there are no gods.



Sez you.

And you are wrong.

There are people right here in this forum who say it.

When you investigate their beliefs, you will realize, in every case, that they are using the transitive form of the verb. If pressed, they will all use words such as "guess" or "reason" or "figure" if confronted with your narrow, cherry picked, unreasonable use of the word "believe".

There isn't a single atheist on the planet who would admit their non-belief is actually a "belief" like you are using the word.

It's like saying "belief" connotes belief in the Christian god only, and all of those Muslims and Hindus who say they "believe in god" are actually arrogant liars. You see, you don't get to decide what the word "believe" means to people who use it, because there are different definitions of that word than the one you allow.

 

[Frank Apisa]

When you investigate their beliefs, you will realize, in every case, that they are using the transitive form of the verb. If pressed, they will all use words such as "guess" or "reason" or "figure" if confronted with your narrow, cherry picked, unreasonable use of the word "believe".

There isn't a single atheist on the planet who would admit their non-belief is actually a "belief" like you are using the word.

Gimme a break. You are not going to talk to me about every atheist on the planet.

There are atheists right here in this forum who use it...so stop. Yer makin' me cry.

It's like saying "belief" connotes belief in the Christian god only, and all of those Muslims and Hindus who say they "believe in god" are actually arrogant liars. You see, you don't get to decide what the word "believe" means to people who use it, because there are different definitions of that word than the one you allow.

Okay...you've gone off the track again.

Sorry to see it. It doesn't look nice.

I do not define "believe." But if someone says to me they "believe" there are no gods...I KNOW it is a guess.

IF someone says "I believe there is a god"...I can pretty much count on it being a guess.

The theists has at least a chance of being truthful.

NO atheist who asserts there are no gods...or who asserts a "belief" in gods...is doing anything BUT offering a blind guess.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Gimme a break. You are not going to talk to me about every atheist on the planet.

There are atheists right here in this forum who use it...so stop. Yer makin' me cry.



Okay...you've gone off the track again.

Sorry to see it. It doesn't look nice.

I do not define "believe." But if someone says to me they "believe" there are no gods...I KNOW it is a guess.

IF someone says "I believe there is a god"...I can pretty much count on it being a guess.

The theists has at least a chance of being truthful.

NO atheist who asserts there are no gods...or who asserts a "belief" in gods...is doing anything BUT offering a blind guess.

I have provided you the dictionary definition of the word "believe". It is used as a synonym for "guess", "figure", "estimate", "think", etc.

When people say they believe something, they are not automatically talking about a religious belief, or even a strongly held conviction without evidence. But this is the only mode of the word you allow.

An atheist, even one who professes a strongly held conviction about the nonexistence of god, cannot satisfy the definition of "believe" as you describe it by definition.

 

[Frank Apisa]

I have provided you the dictionary definition of the word "believe". It is used as a synonym for "guess", "figure", "estimate", "think", etc.

Yes, you have.

When people say they believe something, they are not automatically talking about a religious belief, or even a strongly held conviction without evidence. But this is the only mode of the word you allow.

Really???

What I have said is that in a religious context...when speaking about what IS or IS NOT a part of the true nature of the REALITY of existence...

...the word "believe" is used to disguise "blindly guessing."

I have been consistent in that.

I have no idea of where you got that crap you were charging me with...but I SUSPECT you just made it up.

Not a good idea.

An atheist, even one who professes a strongly held conviction about the nonexistence of god, cannot satisfy the definition of "believe" as you describe it by definition.

Oh?

I think it is a perfect fit.

If someone professes a strongly held conviction about the nonexistence of gods...IT IS A BLIND GUESS.

So...how 'bout dem Cub's?