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Atheism, Is not believing in gods a belief or not?

Yes, you have.



Really???

What I have said is that in a religious context...when speaking about what IS or IS NOT a part of the true nature of the REALITY of existence...

...the word "believe" is used to disguise "blindly guessing."

I have been consistent in that.

I have no idea of where you got that crap you were charging me with...but I SUSPECT you just made it up.

Not a good idea.



Oh?

I think it is a perfect fit.

If someone professes a strongly held conviction about the nonexistence of gods...IT IS A BLIND GUESS.

So...how 'bout dem Cub's?

So it is your opinion that people (and in this specific case, "most" people) randomly jump to strongly held convictions based on absolutely no argument or evidence or logic or ANYTHING whatsoever?

...that's a mighty odd belief you happen to have, right there.
 
So it is your opinion that people (and in this specific case, "most" people) randomly jump to strongly held convictions based on absolutely no argument or evidence or logic or ANYTHING whatsoever?

...that's a mighty odd belief you happen to have, right there.

I do not do "believing."

I defy you to show me any evidence that there are no gods.

At best, you will be able to offer variations on two themes...theists can produce no gods for examination...and there is no need for gods.

NEITHER of those in any way is evidence that there are no gods.

I understand that atheists pretend they come to stuff like "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" using reason, logic, and science...

...but Gonzo, we both know that is a joke.

Right?
 
I do not do "believing."

I defy you to show me any evidence that there are no gods.

At best, you will be able to offer variations on two themes...theists can produce no gods for examination...and there is no need for gods.

NEITHER of those in any way is evidence that there are no gods.

I understand that atheists pretend they come to stuff like "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" using reason, logic, and science...

...but Gonzo, we both know that is a joke.

Right?

...aaaaaaaand we're back to our regularly scheduled programming.

While you have repeatedly been shown the various arguments against the existence of gods and have summarily dismissed them out of hand without once acknowledging or responding to them (and denying they even exist), even then, you simply transfer these "guesses", "ideas", "thoughts," and "summations" into your cherry-picked definition of belief.

This is what we call "a circular argument": you claim atheists have no go argument, so that means they are operating on blind guesses, which you call "belief," "faith," whatever, and therefore atheism is really just a faith.

When presented with these arguments (think mbig here), you ignore them.

When discussing definitions you cherry pick a very specific definition for one word and claim this is the only definition of this word allowed; therefore, anyone who uses this word can only be using it the way you say it can be used.

When backed into a corner, you are forced to admit that some assumed minority of atheists don't actually use this word, but it doesn't matter for them because they obviously must be guessing in the dark anyway since they don't have an argument because you ignore their arguments (circle back to 1 - they can't have an argument because they are only guessing/they have to be guessing because they don't have an argument).

When proclaiming it must be a majority of people who actually use this word, you admit those online you have talked to fall outside of this majority, you know, in the very specific forum where their actual thoughts can be sussed out and they start out on guard against people like you who put words in their mouths and heap meaning and nuance onto words when it's not called for. The supposed majority you know offline (anecdotal, no proof for this) just so happen to use the word "belief" and therefore all of their arguments are nothing but blind guesses (circle back to 2 - they are engaging in belief - which is blind guessing - because they say they are; if they don't say so, it's because they are fooling themselves and they really mean to use the word "Belief". Circle back to 1 - they have to be guessing, because they don't have an argument).

When you get pinned to the wall on one of these, you slink out and start down the other path, where you eventually end up pinned to the wall again, only to slink out and go back to the first. Rinse and repeat.

Unfortunately for you, I have a pretty good memory, and I can go back and quote you word-for-word and point out the contradictory things you say, which makes your slippery wriggling transparent. When you deny it with the evidence in the post you are quoting/responding to, it makes you look even less credible than you already are.

And yet.... here you are, still persisting with your bad reasoning, selective definitions, anecdotes, unsupportable claims, and circular arguments. Does it feel good, Frank? Do you like flopping in the wind? Because, I'll tell you, very few things make me feel better in life than making a first class BS'er look like a fool.
 
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...aaaaaaaand we're back to our regularly scheduled programming.

While you have repeatedly been shown the various arguments against the existence of gods and have summarily dismissed them out of hand without once acknowledging or responding to them (and denying they even exist), even then, you simply transfer these "guesses", "ideas", "thoughts," and "summations" into your cherry-picked definition of belief.

This is what we call "a circular argument": you claim atheists have no go argument, so that means they are operating on blind guesses, which you call "belief," "faith," whatever, and therefore atheism is really just a faith.

When presented with these arguments (think mbig here), you ignore them.

When discussing definitions you cherry pick a very specific definition for one word and claim this is the only definition of this word allowed; therefore, anyone who uses this word can only be using it the way you say it can be used.

When backed into a corner, you are forced to admit that some assumed minority of atheists don't actually use this word, but it doesn't matter for them because they obviously must be guessing in the dark anyway since they don't have an argument because you ignore their arguments (circle back to 1 - they can't have an argument because they are only guessing/they have to be guessing because they don't have an argument).

When proclaiming it must be a majority of people who actually use this word, you admit those online you have talked to fall outside of this majority, you know, in the very specific forum where their actual thoughts can be sussed out and they start out on guard against people like you who put words in their mouths and heap meaning and nuance onto words when it's not called for. The supposed majority you know offline (anecdotal, no proof for this) just so happen to use the word "belief" and therefore all of their arguments are nothing but blind guesses (circle back to 2 - they are engaging in belief - which is blind guessing - because they say they are; if they don't say so, it's because they are fooling themselves and they really mean to use the word "Belief". Circle back to 1 - they have to be guessing, because they don't have an argument).

When you get pinned to the wall on one of these, you slink out and start down the other path, where you eventually end up pinned to the wall again, only to slink out and go back to the first. Rinse and repeat.

Unfortunately for you, I have a pretty good memory, and I can go back and quote you word-for-word and point out the contradictory things you say, which makes your slippery wriggling transparent. When you deny it with the evidence in the post you are quoting/responding to, it makes you look even less credible than you already are.

And yet.... here you are, still persisting with your bad reasoning, selective definitions, anecdotes, unsupportable claims, and circular arguments. Does it feel good, Frank? Do you like flopping in the wind? Because, I'll tell you, very few things make me feel better in life than making a first class BS'er look like a fool.

Prediction:
Franks next post will aim at insulting you and will be very arrogant.
After thats out of the way, Frank will return to whatever baseless claim that he was making without missing a beat.
 
Prediction:
Franks next post will aim at insulting you and will be very arrogant.
After thats out of the way, Frank will return to whatever baseless claim that he was making without missing a beat.

He'll also say that that kind of language is uncalled for, right before doing it himself.

At this point, I predict he'll just repeat his line about not doing any believing, and further insinuate that that's all atheists are actually doing.
 
...And yet.... here you are, still persisting with your bad reasoning, selective definitions, anecdotes, unsupportable claims, and circular arguments. Does it feel good, Frank? Do you like flopping in the wind? Because, I'll tell you, very few things make me feel better in life than making a first class BS'er look like a fool.

Won't be the first time, won't be the last.

Even though I now refuse to feed and poke a stick at it, I still find it incredibly interesting to observe a fundamentalist activist agnostic in the wild. In all my years I have never before been at such odds with a self identifying agnostic; I just don't associate such muddled thinking and 'weaseliness' with agnosticism but, I guess that if you put the words 'fundamental' and 'activist' before anything it turns out that way. I'm sure I will eventually get bored with the car crash.
 
I believe I have no idea and guess I am right.

I guess I have no idea and believe I am right.
I think I have no idea and guess I am right.
I believe I have no idea and think I am right.
 
...aaaaaaaand we're back to our regularly scheduled programming.

While you have repeatedly been shown the various arguments against the existence of gods and have summarily dismissed them out of hand without once acknowledging or responding to them (and denying they even exist), even then, you simply transfer these "guesses", "ideas", "thoughts," and "summations" into your cherry-picked definition of belief.

This is what we call "a circular argument": you claim atheists have no go argument, so that means they are operating on blind guesses, which you call "belief," "faith," whatever, and therefore atheism is really just a faith.

When presented with these arguments (think mbig here), you ignore them.

When discussing definitions you cherry pick a very specific definition for one word and claim this is the only definition of this word allowed; therefore, anyone who uses this word can only be using it the way you say it can be used.

When backed into a corner, you are forced to admit that some assumed minority of atheists don't actually use this word, but it doesn't matter for them because they obviously must be guessing in the dark anyway since they don't have an argument because you ignore their arguments (circle back to 1 - they can't have an argument because they are only guessing/they have to be guessing because they don't have an argument).

When proclaiming it must be a majority of people who actually use this word, you admit those online you have talked to fall outside of this majority, you know, in the very specific forum where their actual thoughts can be sussed out and they start out on guard against people like you who put words in their mouths and heap meaning and nuance onto words when it's not called for. The supposed majority you know offline (anecdotal, no proof for this) just so happen to use the word "belief" and therefore all of their arguments are nothing but blind guesses (circle back to 2 - they are engaging in belief - which is blind guessing - because they say they are; if they don't say so, it's because they are fooling themselves and they really mean to use the word "Belief". Circle back to 1 - they have to be guessing, because they don't have an argument).

When you get pinned to the wall on one of these, you slink out and start down the other path, where you eventually end up pinned to the wall again, only to slink out and go back to the first. Rinse and repeat.

Unfortunately for you, I have a pretty good memory, and I can go back and quote you word-for-word and point out the contradictory things you say, which makes your slippery wriggling transparent. When you deny it with the evidence in the post you are quoting/responding to, it makes you look even less credible than you already are.

And yet.... here you are, still persisting with your bad reasoning, selective definitions, anecdotes, unsupportable claims, and circular arguments. Does it feel good, Frank? Do you like flopping in the wind? Because, I'll tell you, very few things make me feel better in life than making a first class BS'er look like a fool.

Then use that "pretty good memory" to go back and quote what I have said that you disagree with...and we can discuss it.

Until then...I'm just going to say, "You are wrong."
 
Prediction:
Franks next post will aim at insulting you and will be very arrogant.
After thats out of the way, Frank will return to whatever baseless claim that he was making without missing a beat.

You are the one making insults, Freedom...not I.
 
He'll also say that that kind of language is uncalled for, right before doing it himself.

At this point, I predict he'll just repeat his line about not doing any believing, and further insinuate that that's all atheists are actually doing.

The quotes, please.
 
Won't be the first time, won't be the last.

Even though I now refuse to feed and poke a stick at it, I still find it incredibly interesting to observe a fundamentalist activist agnostic in the wild. In all my years I have never before been at such odds with a self identifying agnostic; I just don't associate such muddled thinking and 'weaseliness' with agnosticism but, I guess that if you put the words 'fundamental' and 'activist' before anything it turns out that way. I'm sure I will eventually get bored with the car crash.

Here you are, William...insults and all.

Hope you are feeling well.
 
Then use that "pretty good memory" to go back and quote what I have said that you disagree with...and we can discuss it.

Until then...I'm just going to say, "You are wrong."

You know exactly where we disagree, Frank.

When people use the word, "believe", it doesn't mean "belief without evidence" in every case. In fact, I would argue that people never mean it that way, since people don't ever say they believe something without evidence. People think they are rational. People don't think they hold unfounded beliefs, and they certainly don't admit to it.

One of your arguments is that a majority of atheists "believe" there is no god, as evinced by their own words. You claim their use of the word "believe" can only be taken to mean "believe without evidence/religious belief".

Well, that's just absurd. Just because you only use that word that way, that doesn't mean the entire world is somehow tricked into this narrowly confining cherry pick.

You also say that this is all they could possibly be doing, since there is no argument or evidence for a universe that doesn't contain a god, and this is just flat out wrong. There are many, many arguments, almost all of which aimed directly at the ludicrousness of moat theistic arguments... and what we're left with is the null hypothesis which would mean a very unlikely god. You ignore these arguments, put your fingers firmly in your ears, and call them "beliefs".

How is anyone supposed to have a discussion with you if you have already decided what the answer has to be while only allowing certain uses of certain words?
 
You know exactly where we disagree, Frank.

When people use the word, "believe", it doesn't mean "belief without evidence" in every case. In fact, I would argue that people never mean it that way, since people don't ever say they believe something without evidence. People think they are rational. People don't think they hold unfounded beliefs, and they certainly don't admit to it.

One of your arguments is that a majority of atheists "believe" there is no god, as evinced by their own words. You claim their use of the word "believe" can only be taken to mean "believe without evidence/religious belief".

I have never, ever, anywhere, here or in any other forum...EVER said those words. Nor have I ever meant them.

I have said that in a religious or philosophical discussion where the REALITY of existence is being discussed...anyone saying "I believe there is a GOD" or "I believe no gods exist"...is sharing a blind guess about the REALITY of existence...and disguising the fact that they are sharing a blind guess by calling their blind guess...a "belief."

If you want to argue with that...let's do it.

But don't make words up and put them into my mouth.

You ought really to quote and give a link to what you are supposedly and unsuccessfully arguing against.


You also say that this is all they could possibly be doing, since there is no argument or evidence for a universe that doesn't contain a god, and this is just flat out wrong.

Once again...a horrible characterization of what I have said on this score. In fact that is a distortion of what I have said.

Quote (like I do) and give links to the quotes (as I have here)...and stop making stuff up.



There are many, many arguments, almost all of which aimed directly at the ludicrousness of moat theistic arguments... and what we're left with is the null hypothesis which would mean a very unlikely god. You ignore these arguments, put your fingers firmly in your ears, and call them "beliefs".

Give me the quote and link...and I will defend anything I have actually said.

How is anyone supposed to have a discussion with you if you have already decided what the answer has to be while only allowing certain uses of certain words?

How is anyone supposed to have a discussion with you if you just make stuff up; pretend the person you are addressing said it; and then argue against what you made up?

That is a much more important question.
 
I have never, ever, anywhere, here or in any other forum...EVER said those words. Nor have I ever meant them.

I have said that in a religious or philosophical discussion where the REALITY of existence is being discussed...anyone saying "I believe there is a GOD" or "I believe no gods exist"...is sharing a blind guess about the REALITY of existence...and disguising the fact that they are sharing a blind guess by calling their blind guess...a "belief."

If you want to argue with that...let's do it.

But don't make words up and put them into my mouth.

Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists hold this "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists you've talked with online don't use the word "belief," but that "most" atheists you talk to offline do use the word "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim people who use the word "belief" are engaging in "belief," but people who do not use the word "belief" are actually "reasoning," "figuring," "expecting," or "guessing"? Are you denying that you claim the word "belief" excludes those other words by definition?

Once again...a horrible characterization of what I have said on this score. In fact that is a distortion of what I have said.

Are you denying that you've made the claim that logic, reason, and/or science has not yielded any sort of probabilistic claims for the atheist camp?

Instead of you weaseling out of THESE claims after they get destroyed, I want you to confirm exactly what it is you are saying with your last post. Because I am going to quote you saying these things, and I want to be sure going in that you know these are the things you claim you haven't said, right before I quote them back to you so you know you actually did say them.
 
Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists hold this "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists you've talked with online don't use the word "belief," but that "most" atheists you talk to offline do use the word "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim people who use the word "belief" are engaging in "belief," but people who do not use the word "belief" are actually "reasoning," "figuring," "expecting," or "guessing"? Are you denying that you claim the word "belief" excludes those other words by definition?



Are you denying that you've made the claim that logic, reason, and/or science has not yielded any sort of probabilistic claims for the atheist camp?

Instead of you weaseling out of THESE claims after they get destroyed, I want you to confirm exactly what it is you are saying with your last post. Because I am going to quote you saying these things, and I want to be sure going in that you know these are the things you claim you haven't said, right before I quote them back to you so you know you actually did say them.

But weaseling is all that Frank can do.
 
Atheism is active rather than passive due to the ubiquity of theism. The "existence" of God is one of the first things we hear about, so as impressionable toddlers, we instinctively believe what we hear from adults; especially our parents. I remember believing in God as a kid, even though my parents weren't religious. Not once did they take me to church, but religiosity surrounded me anyway. TV and radio were full of preachers telling me to be wary of this Gaawwwwduh fellow who apparently knew everything I was doing and even thinking. Of course I believed. You did too. Some of you haven't escaped that particular brand of child abuse, and never will.

Therefore, making the transition to atheist has to be an active process. You must expressly reject a previously held belief and at the same time accept a label that illogically defines you by what you do not believe.

There's a tribe in the Amazon jungle that believes good people die and become a star in the night sky, while bad people become jaguars. The only reason I'm not widely known as a militant ajaguarist by anyone other than a member of that tribe is that it's a belief most people have never heard of. If there were billions of jaguarists in the world, you can bet your @ss I would have to put up with being called an ajaguarist.

It numbers. That's all.
 
Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists hold this "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim "most" atheists you've talked with online don't use the word "belief," but that "most" atheists you talk to offline do use the word "belief"?

Are you denying that you claim people who use the word "belief" are engaging in "belief," but people who do not use the word "belief" are actually "reasoning," "figuring," "expecting," or "guessing"? Are you denying that you claim the word "belief" excludes those other words by definition?



Are you denying that you've made the claim that logic, reason, and/or science has not yielded any sort of probabilistic claims for the atheist camp?

Instead of you weaseling out of THESE claims after they get destroyed, I want you to confirm exactly what it is you are saying with your last post. Because I am going to quote you saying these things, and I want to be sure going in that you know these are the things you claim you haven't said, right before I quote them back to you so you know you actually did say them.

Quote exactly what you are having trouble with...rather than paraphrasing my comments to suit the nonsense you are about.

If you want to continue to make things up rather than doing that...by all means do so...and I will call attention to the fact that you are making the stuff up.
 
Now now, let's give him a chance to engage.

You know, there is a poster over at CARM called Nouveau who is a batfruit crazy fundamentalist. He is so absorbed by his fundamentalism that he will do anything to avoid engaging in discussion over the stuff he posts and mostly it is fear of having his bubble burst by rational discussion. He is the forum clown over there.
 
Atheism is active rather than passive due to the ubiquity of theism. The "existence" of God is one of the first things we hear about, so as impressionable toddlers, we instinctively believe what we hear from adults; especially our parents. I remember believing in God as a kid, even though my parents weren't religious. Not once did they take me to church, but religiosity surrounded me anyway. TV and radio were full of preachers telling me to be wary of this Gaawwwwduh fellow who apparently knew everything I was doing and even thinking. Of course I believed. You did too. Some of you haven't escaped that particular brand of child abuse, and never will.

Therefore, making the transition to atheist has to be an active process. You must expressly reject a previously held belief and at the same time accept a label that illogically defines you by what you do not believe.

There's a tribe in the Amazon jungle that believes good people die and become a star in the night sky, while bad people become jaguars. The only reason I'm not widely known as a militant ajaguarist by anyone other than a member of that tribe is that it's a belief most people have never heard of. If there were billions of jaguarists in the world, you can bet your @ss I would have to put up with being called an ajaguarist.

It numbers. That's all.
There are societies (and were, especially in the godless societies of communist countries) where kids were never confronted with any deity concept.

Of course that takes nothing away from the examples that you cite. I agree that abandoning a belief system one has initially been subjected to is hardly a passive thing.

But once that abandonment has been effected, it gets pretty silly to describe the resulting lack of belief as a belief.

Which, if I read you correctly, is basically what you're saying as well.
 
Quote exactly what you are having trouble with...rather than paraphrasing my comments to suit the nonsense you are about.

If you want to continue to make things up rather than doing that...by all means do so...and I will call attention to the fact that you are making the stuff up.

Do you deny those things?
 
Do you deny those things?

I neither deny nor confirm any of those things, Gonzo.

If you have a problem with anything I have said...quote it (with a link so I can see it in context)...and I will either defend it or withdraw it.

But I am not going to allow you to continue to characterize what I say invalidly...and then ask me to defend what you are pretending I have said. I'd like to say that with as much respect as I can...because there is no reason why we cannot have a civil conversation, but you have simply gotten out of hand with your characterizations of what I have said.
 
I neither deny nor confirm any of those things, Gonzo.

If you have a problem with anything I have said...quote it (with a link so I can see it in context)...and I will either defend it or withdraw it.

But I am not going to allow you to continue to characterize what I say invalidly...and then ask me to defend what you are pretending I have said. I'd like to say that with as much respect as I can...because there is no reason why we cannot have a civil conversation, but you have simply gotten out of hand with your characterizations of what I have said.

You've spread these claims all over several long posts. I'd like you to clarify what you mean, as simply as possible. And I'm going to help you do that. After we get some definitive semblance of what you are trying to say, the quotes will start appearing - have no fear :twisted:

Point the first:

Does the word "believe" mean anything to you other than "to guess blindly; to have religious faith"?
 
You've spread these claims all over several long posts. I'd like you to clarify what you mean, as simply as possible. And I'm going to help you do that. After we get some definitive semblance of what you are trying to say, the quotes will start appearing - have no fear :twisted:

Point the first:

Does the word "believe" mean anything to you other than "to guess blindly; to have religious faith"?

Go to the quotes, Gonzo. We'll talk when you have the quotes with links.
 
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