As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

[JoeB131]

Why would we believe Putin would hold up his end?

And how much sense does it make for them to volunteer to restrict themselves, again, when it is plain that they can't count on promises of help from other nations?

Yes, they will have to learn to live with their bigger neighbor to the north.

Just like Mexico does.

 

[soap box]

Letting the Baltic states join NATO was a huge mistake.

Look at this from the Russian point of view. They agreed to the breakup of the USSR and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. Instead of ratcheting down tensions, NATO inducted nearly all the WP countries, the Baltic states, and then started making noises about including Ukraine. In short, putting a hostile Alliance right on Russia's doorstep.

Given how many times Russia has been invaded by Napoleon, Hitler, the Kaiser, etc., you can't see how they would be genuinely concerned about that?

NATO / Putin timeline :

2000 Putin first elected president

2004: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia are admitted as members

2022: Invasion of Ukraine

2023: Finland is admitted
2024: Sweden

The countries we're talking about asked to apply for membership in NATO. All countries after the charter members have asked to join NATO and that means no member was coerced to join. That's important; these nations chose to apply.

2000- Putin becomes president of the Russian Federation. Finland and Sweeden applied with grave concern about Putin. And the countries we're talking about wanted in.

If Putin says his war is about self determination, then don't those nations have a sovereign right to protect themselves from Putin?

Perhaps you're aware of this:

Already not satisfied with Ukraine, Russia now says they want the Baltics

Russia's war demands have expanded beyond Ukraine, with a senior Kremlin official now insisting that NATO must withdraw completely from the Baltic States — Latvia, Lithuania

kyivinsider.com

Yes Putin wants the Baltics. If his demand is met and the Baltics are removed from NATO then he is unencumbered in his wars of conquest. Were you aware of this announcement?

So no, the Russian point of view is destructive. . It wasn't that NATO was threatening anyone, it was about how abrasive and tyrannical Putin is. This has not been a process where Putin fears an attack from a foreign country, but instead this is European fears about Putin attacking other countries

 

[Hamish Howl]

Letting the Baltic states join NATO was a huge mistake.

If you slavishly love Russia, I could see that.

Look at this from the Russian point of view.

No. **** Russia. Nobody gives a shit what they think, except traitors.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Yes Putin wants the Baltics. If his demand is met and the Baltics are removed from NATO then he is unencumbered in his wars of conquest. Were you aware of this announcement?

Yes. Yes, he is.

 

[justoneman]

Russia isn't exactly winning any victories, what with dead Russians piling up daily & losses in equipment.



That's too damn bad. They better get used to the idea that they aren't getting it.

Russia is exactly winning victories and both sides have the same losses. It's a war.

Russia already has what it has and they will take more if there is not a meaningful peace agreement.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Russia is exactly winning victories and both sides have the same losses. It's a war.

Yeah? How'd they do in Sumy oblast today?

Russia already has what it has and they will take more if there is not a meaningful peace agreement.

They can't take what they already claimed.

 

[JoeB131]

NATO / Putin timeline :

Not relevent.

Look at this from the Russian point of view (not just Putin.) They dissolved the USSR, abandoned Communism, disbanded the Warsaw Pact, and withdrew their troops from these places. Instead of admitting NATO no longer had a function, the west decided to expand it and move the front line right up to Russia's border.

Imagine, if you would, if China signed an agreement with the government of Mexico and put a couple of PLA Divisions right up on the Rio Grande. And now you see what Russia's problem with NATO is.

If Putin says his war is about self determination, then don't those nations have a sovereign right to protect themselves from Putin?

I would depend how many ethnic Russians were living in those countries and if their rights were being respected. In the case of Estonia and Latvia, Russians make up over 20% of the population.

Yes Putin wants the Baltics. If his demand is met and the Baltics are removed from NATO then he is unencumbered in his wars of conquest. Were you aware of this announcement?

So why is this our problem? I say the same thing about all the twits who want us to get involved in a war between China and Taiwan, or between Israel and her Arab neighbors.

Show me what the AMERICAN interest is.

So no, the Russian point of view is destructive. . It wasn't that NATO was threatening anyone, it was about how abrasive and tyrannical Putin is. This has not been a process where Putin fears an attack from a foreign country, but instead this is European fears about Putin attacking other countries

Wait, you don't see how moving hostile troops right up to Russia's borders is a threat.

How many times has Russia been invaded from the west?

If you slavishly love Russia, I could see that.

Nope, I just don't seen an American Interest because Joe Biden's Autopen committed Billions of my tax dollars to a losing war.

 

[Quag]

NATO / Putin timeline :

2000 Putin first elected president

2004: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia are admitted as members

2022: Invasion of Ukraine

2023: Finland is admitted
2024: Sweden

The countries we're talking about asked to apply for membership in NATO. All countries after the charter members have asked to join NATO and that means no member was coerced to join. That's important; these nations chose to apply.

2000- Putin becomes president of the Russian Federation. Finland and Sweeden applied with grave concern about Putin. And the countries we're talking about wanted in.

If Putin says his war is about self determination, then don't those nations have a sovereign right to protect themselves from Putin?

Perhaps you're aware of this:

Already not satisfied with Ukraine, Russia now says they want the Baltics

Russia's war demands have expanded beyond Ukraine, with a senior Kremlin official now insisting that NATO must withdraw completely from the Baltic States — Latvia, Lithuania

kyivinsider.com

Yes Putin wants the Baltics. If his demand is met and the Baltics are removed from NATO then he is unencumbered in his wars of conquest. Were you aware of this announcement?

So no, the Russian point of view is destructive. . It wasn't that NATO was threatening anyone, it was about how abrasive and tyrannical Putin is. This has not been a process where Putin fears an attack from a foreign country, but instead this is European fears about Putin attacking other countries

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014

 

[soap box]

Not relevent.

Look at this from the Russian point of view (not just Putin.) They dissolved the USSR, abandoned Communism, disbanded the Warsaw Pact, and withdrew their troops from these places. Instead of admitting NATO no longer had a function, the west decided to expand it and move the front line right up to Russia's border.

Have you considered the function of NATO? They formed NATO for guys like Hitler. They couldn't foresee Putin, but they expected someone would try again, and here he is, Putin. What makes you say NATO no longer has a function. If NATO is no longer has a function, why did Estonia Latvia Sweeden Finland Molova and the rest join NATO after Putin became president?
Why did the West decide to admit the members? Because the applying nations wanted protection from Putin.

Your phrase "the west decided to expand it" is a propaganda twist and I'm immune to that kind of nonsense.

Imagine, if you would, if China signed an agreement with the government of Mexico and put a couple of PLA Divisions right up on the Rio Grande. And now you see what Russia's problem with NATO is.

No, because China would start a war, but your hypothetical is saying Ukraine would have started the war. Two totally different countries, and an absurd comparison. Who is interested in starting a war with Russia? Name the country that wants to start a war with Russia.

The idea that Russia is threatened is a Kremlin propaganda lie. I've read it several times in RT.

I would depend how many ethnic Russians were living in those countries and if their rights were being respected. In the case of Estonia and Latvia, Russians make up over 20% of the population.

There are more Latinos in California than whites. That does it, I now demand that California be returned to Mexico since it was stolen in an unjust war in 1846. Texas too!

So why is this our problem? I say the same thing about all the twits who want us to get involved in a war between China and Taiwan, or between Israel and her Arab neighbors.

Show me what the AMERICAN interest is.



Wait, you don't see how moving hostile troops right up to Russia's borders is a threat.

Who said anybody would move troops to the border anywhere? That's not Putin paranoia, he's not afraid. Its Putin propaganda because he's invented a straw man that you seem to accept. That straw man justifies his ambitious conquest, but it's militarism based on lies.

How many times has Russia been invaded from the west?

Nothing has changed since WWII? Seriously. This is 2025. Again, name the country that wants to start an invasion of Russia. Name just one.

Nope, I just don't seen an American Interest because Joe Biden's Autopen committed Billions of my tax dollars to a losing war.

Your sentence here would mean you heard the stupid lie about autopens and as a result you decided your tax dollars were wasted. Look where you put the word "because".

You meant that you don't want your tax dollars going to this war. Well that's the case this fiscal year.

You've got the entire situation backwards.

You're repeating the Russian propaganda that someone is going to threaten Russia, strike first, invade and conquer MFRussia.

NATO was established exactly for individuals like Hitler and Putin. After he became president, these nations voluntarily applied for membership.

This whole problem is not Putin as the victim, Putin is the one invading Ukraine followed by the Balkans. After that who knows?

I saw parts of the Senate armed services committee hearing yesterday and McConnell asked, "who is the victim and who's the aggressor?"

You could answer the same question.

Sen. Graham asked, "Do you trust Putin to stop?"

You could also answer the same question.

Your question asking why this matters to the US is really asking why do we need international allies. I would answer that we need allies to protect ourselves from delusional and tyrannical warmongers like Putin.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014

Immaterial. Russia is "entitled". /s

 

[Roadvirus]

Russia is exactly winning victories and both sides have the same losses. It's a war.

Ukraine has lost several naval vessels, including at least one that was state-of-the-art?

 

[JoeB131]

Have you considered the function of NATO? They formed NATO for guys like Hitler. They couldn't foresee Putin, but they expected someone would try again, and here he is, Putin. What makes you say NATO no longer has a function. If NATO is no longer has a function, why did Estonia Latvia Sweeden Finland Molova and the rest join NATO after Putin became president?
Why did the West decide to admit the members? Because the applying nations wanted protection from Putin.

Why did they join? Same reason all the other European Parasites are still keeping NATO alive. America does all the heavy lifting, they kick back in their easy chairs.

Your phrase "the west decided to expand it" is a propaganda twist and I'm immune to that kind of nonsense.

We couldn't have admitted all those other countries unless the US and other NATO members agreed. Heck, even Turkey was able to tie up Sweden and Finland getting in until they got some concessions.

There are more Latinos in California than whites. That does it, I now demand that California be returned to Mexico since it was stolen in an unjust war in 1846. Texas too!

Don't worry, Trump is taking care of that problem.

Who said anybody would move troops to the border anywhere? That's not Putin paranoia, he's not afraid. Its Putin propaganda because he's invented a straw man that you seem to accept. That straw man justifies his ambitious conquest, but it's militarism based on lies.

Really? Four US Servicemen just died in Lithuania because they took their military truck and drove it into a lake in error.

Your sentence here would mean you heard the stupid lie about autopens and as a result you decided your tax dollars were wasted. Look where you put the word "because".

You meant that you don't want your tax dollars going to this war. Well that's the case this fiscal year.

No, I decided that they were wasted because 400 Billion has been sent there (more than twice Ukraine's GDP) and we have very little to show for it.

You've got the entire situation backwards.

You're repeating the Russian propaganda that someone is going to threaten Russia, strike first, invade and conquer MFRussia.

NATO was established exactly for individuals like Hitler and Putin. After he became president, these nations voluntarily applied for membership.

Putin isn't Hitler, and a lot of you have expressed your desire to see Putin overthrown. That strikes me as a threat, frankly.

This whole problem is not Putin as the victim, Putin is the one invading Ukraine followed by the Balkans. After that who knows?

I saw parts of the Senate armed services committee hearing yesterday and McConnell asked, "who is the victim and who's the aggressor?"

You could answer the same question.

Sen. Graham asked, "Do you trust Putin to stop?"

You could also answer the same question.

Your question asking why this matters to the US is really asking why do we need international allies. I would answer that we need allies to protect ourselves from delusional and tyrannical warmongers like Putin.

It's less about do I think Putin will stop and more "can Putin really do that much more?"

 

[Roadvirus]

Letting the Baltic states join NATO was a huge mistake.

Look at this from the Russian point of view. They agreed to the breakup of the USSR and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. Instead of ratcheting down tensions, NATO inducted nearly all the WP countries, the Baltic states, and then started making noises about including Ukraine. In short, putting a hostile Alliance right on Russia's doorstep.

Given how many times Russia has been invaded by Napoleon, Hitler, the Kaiser, etc., you can't see how they would be genuinely concerned about that?

Until after Putzin invaded Ukraine, NATO never threatened Russia with any kind of military force post-Cold War.

And NATO didn't "induct" anyone. The individual countries sought membership. And NATO members approved their membership.

Perhaps those former USSR nations feared what is happening in Ukraine back then.

 

[Roadvirus]

Yeah? How'd they do in Sumy oblast today?

And still not in Pokrovsk after a year.

 

[Roadvirus]

Look at this from the Russian point of view

Sorry...can't do that. I'm not screwed up in the head.

 

[Roadvirus]

Putin isn't Hitler

Yes he is. The worst piece of shit to inflict such death and destruction on Europe since Adolf blew his brains out.

and a lot of you have expressed your desire to see Putin overthrown. That strikes me as a threat, frankly.

Murderous dictators who are a threat to the peace of the world need to be gotten rid of before they can do untold damage & death.

"Never Again" isn't just a catchy slogan.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Yes he is. The worst piece of shit to inflict such death and destruction on Europe since Adolf blew his brains out.



Murderous dictators who are a threat to the peace of the world need to be gotten rid of before they can do untold damage & death.

"Never Again" isn't just a catchy slogan.

All of the above.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Putin isn't Hitler, and a lot of you have expressed your desire to see Putin overthrown. That strikes me as a threat, frankly.

That's unfortunate.

Have you tried getting really mad about it?

 

[Risky Thicket]

And let's be fair, Trump's been backing Russia because he believes it is winning and he he has a pathological need to be seen as a winner. So if the tide turns, he can switch sides and do well by doing good.

That is a major part of Trumpian foreign policy. He is committed until he hears the Taco Bell. And no one, no one, knows when that will happen. It will happen but no one knows when.

His grandfather ran a whorehouse and the Trumps have been ****ing everybody ever since.

 

[soap box]

Why did they join? Same reason all the other European Parasites are still keeping NATO alive. America does all the heavy lifting, they kick back in their easy chairs.

They joined because they recognized Putin is just like Hitler.

We couldn't have admitted all those other countries unless the US and other NATO members agreed. Heck, even Turkey was able to tie up Sweden and Finland getting in until they got some concessions.

What your point? Am I supposed to object to international negotiations? What are you talking about here?

Don't worry, Trump is taking care of that problem.

How do you mean that, in what way is Trump taking care of, - whatever it is you mean.

Really? Four US Servicemen just died in Lithuania because they took their military truck and drove it into a lake in error.

That is not a threat to Putin. What are you trying to say?

No, I decided that they were wasted because 400 Billion has been sent there (more than twice Ukraine's GDP) and we have very little to show for it.

Fine

Putin isn't Hitler, and a lot of you have expressed your desire to see Putin overthrown. That strikes me as a threat, frankly.

Putin is as similar to Hitler as it gets. Putin and Hitler have the same characteristics that compelled NATO to establish a security agreement.

Holy cow, it seems like a threat for you and him but he's the one who is threatening Europe. It wouldn't be threat if he hadn't already shown them who he is. They had grandparents who remember Hitler and Stalin. They have grown up understanding despot totalitarianism, and the have right to choose to be protected in NATO.

It's less about do I think Putin will stop and more "can Putin really do that much more?"

Hegseth avoided the question too

That's an answer to someone else's question, so let me clarify:
If Putin wins in Ukraine, will he invade another country?

Who's the victim and who's the agressor?

 

[JoeB131]

That's unfortunate.

Have you tried getting really mad about it?

why should I be mad, other than Biden has squandered 400 billion on a losing war.

Hegseth avoided the question too

That's an answer to someone else's question, so let me clarify:
If Putin wins in Ukraine, will he invade another country?

Probably not.

Who's the victim and who's the agressor?

I would say both sides were responsible for letting this escalate to the point it did. Donbass and Crimea leaving Ukraine should have been an amicable divorce, not the dishes throwing and pet-killing split it's turned into.

Putin is as similar to Hitler as it gets. Putin and Hitler have the same characteristics that compelled NATO to establish a security agreement.

Actually, no. Putin is not practicing Eugenics, he's not starting up concentration camps. He's reclaiming territory that Russia never should have given up to start with.

Holy cow, it seems like a threat for you and him but he's the one who is threatening Europe. It wouldn't be threat if he hadn't already shown them who he is. They had grandparents who remember Hitler and Stalin. They have grown up understanding despot totalitarianism, and the have right to choose to be protected in NATO.

yeah, why not get protection on someone else's dime.

A British Diplomat once described NATO as "Keeping the Americans in, The Russians Out, and the Germans Down". Well, there's no keeping the Germans down, they dominate Europe's economy. There's no point keeping the Russians out, they can barely hold on to Russia. So why are the Americans still "in"? To the point where we are spending 5% of GDP on Defense, more than all of our "Allies" combined.

What your point? Am I supposed to object to international negotiations? What are you talking about here?

Hey, a negotiation usually means we get something we want. I don't see that happening with NATO.

How do you mean that, in what way is Trump taking care of, - whatever it is you mean.

Heh, heh, heh... you know.

 

[JoeB131]

Until after Putzin invaded Ukraine, NATO never threatened Russia with any kind of military force post-Cold War.

And NATO didn't "induct" anyone. The individual countries sought membership. And NATO members approved their membership.

Perhaps those former USSR nations feared what is happening in Ukraine back then.

And we ended up creating that fear.

Again, how would the US react if China started putting Troops in Mexico? Or Cuba? Or Panama?

We'd react poorly, because we consider these countries to be our sphere of influence.

 

[Hamish Howl]

why should I be mad, other than Biden has squandered 400 billion on a losing war.

Link to that number?

I'll wait.

 

[JoeB131]

Link to that number?

I'll wait.

List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By March 2024, mostly Western governments had pledged more than $380 billion worth of aid to Ukraine since the invasion, including nearly $118 billion in direct military aid from individual countries.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ne_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-4"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a> European countries have provided €132 billion in aid (military, financial and humanitarian) as of December 2024, and the United States has provided €114 billion.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ne_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-5"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> Most of the US funding supports American industries who produce weapons and military equipment.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...g_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-cfr.org-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a>

 

[Hamish Howl]

List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By March 2024, mostly Western governments had pledged more than $380 billion worth of aid to Ukraine since the invasion, including nearly $118 billion in direct military aid from individual countries.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ne_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-4"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a> European countries have provided €132 billion in aid (military, financial and humanitarian) as of December 2024, and the United States has provided €114 billion.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ne_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-5"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> Most of the US funding supports American industries who produce weapons and military equipment.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...g_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-cfr.org-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a>

Western Governments.

From The link:

In total, the United States has committed more than $69.2 billion in security assistance to Ukraine since 2014, including approximately $65.9 billion since the beginning of Russia's full-scale invasion on 24 February 2022.

You claimed $400 Bn. The actual amount is less than half of that.

Please attempt to be more honest.