As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

[soap box]

The Ukrainians started the war when they overthrew the elected President of Ukraine. Since you do not denounce that it is too much to ask that I buy your claim that you support self determination

Even if that happened, Zelensky won in 2019. Ukraine voted for him knowing he was not on Russia's side.

That's why I'm telling you no one forced Putin to start the invasion. No matter what happened in Ukraine there was never any reason to think Ukraine would attack Russia. Zelensky had no way to force anyone into a war. Who tells Putin what he should do? Who can demand anything from him? Who does Putin obey?

He decided to invade Ukraine and no one else on this planet made that decision for him.

You should remind yourself of what he has said about Gorbachev and the end of the USSR, and then that his legal counsel announced that the USSR was never dissolved legally.

Putin chose a war of conquest in his delusional effort to restore the USSR.

 

[soap box]

Where is your international referendum to back your claim?

Are you asking about the numbers of KIA again or is this the million people who would kill him if they had the chance? I don't know what you're asking because neither number should be in any referendum. It doesn't make sense.

Putin is doing nothing different from the western countries. After Serbia, western countries went on to attack Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Who knows who is next. Western countries actually validate your thesis

Since you made western countries equivalent to Putin we agree how disgusting the western countries and Putin have been.

Why not?

Putin has nukes. And a madman prima Donna warmonger. Both at the same time. That's why.

 

[JoeB131]

It doesn't have to be Auschwitz to be an atrocity.

Or an object lesson to not surrender under any circumstances.

Or to not pick a fight that you can't win. That would also be a good idea.

The Ukrainians violated the Minsk Accords by trying to win a military victory over the Donbass Republics. Did they really think Russia would do nothing?

It would be foolish of them to attempt to make gains. The proper strategy when you are outnumbered is to allow the enemy to make stupid frontal assaults on prepared positions, as the Russians are prone to do.

The war will end when one government or the other collapses. Period.

"My strategy is to let you keep punching me until your arms get tired!!!"

Um, yeah, that's a smart strategy right there for the Comedian.

If any government is going to collapse, it's going to be Zelenskyy's. Probably right after the Graft Gravy Train from Washington gets cut off and his Oligarchs run out of money to steal.

 

[JoeB131]

Even if that happened, Zelensky won in 2019. Ukraine voted for him knowing he was not on Russia's side.

That's why I'm telling you no one forced Putin to start the invasion. No matter what happened in Ukraine there was never any reason to think Ukraine would attack Russia. Zelensky had no way to force anyone into a war. Who tells Putin what he should do? Who can demand anything from him? Who does Putin obey?

He decided to invade Ukraine and no one else on this planet made that decision for him.

You should remind yourself of what he has said about Gorbachev and the end of the USSR, and then that his legal counsel announced that the USSR was never dissolved legally.

Putin chose a war of conquest in his delusional effort to restore the USSR.

You leave out the part where Zelenskyy violated the Minsk Accords and attacked the Donbas Republics.

 

[soap box]

You leave out the part where Zelenskyy violated the Minsk Accords and attacked the Donbas Republics.

"The day after the pro-Russian separatists took power, Kyiv immediately launched an "anti-terrorist operation".

"On April 7, 2014, a coup by pro-Russian militants in the city of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine was the spark that ignited the Donbas war."

Loading…

www.france24.com

Who fired the first shots? Did the Minsk Accord stipulate that separatists could stage a coup?

 

[JoeB131]

"The day after the pro-Russian separatists took power, Kyiv immediately launched an "anti-terrorist operation".

"On April 7, 2014, a coup by pro-Russian militants in the city of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine was the spark that ignited the Donbas war."

Loading…

www.france24.com

Who fired the first shots? Did the Minsk Accord stipulate that separatists could stage a coup?

The Minsk Accords were after the 2014 Coup, which happened because of the Maidan Coup in Kyiv silenced the Pro-Russian candidate.

So basically, the Ukrainians said, "**** your vote" and the Russians in Crimea and Donbass said, "Peace Out"

The Minsk Accords were intended to contain the violence in Donbass, but Zelenskyy sabotaged them, and he was subsequently invaded for his trouble. Now he's going to lose a lot more territory than when he started.

 

[soap box]

Um, okay, given that restoring Russia has become a national cause, can't see how the next guy backs down without something to show for their troubles.

The "next guy" isn't necessarily a warmonger. His successor might not be attempting to restore the former Soviet Union.

None of who can get within the same zip code of him




No one said "give him everything he wants". Give him what he already has and is reasonable, on the other hand, works perfectly well. Donbas and Crimea are not unreasonable asks, given 1) He's already got firm control of them and 2) they are ethnically Russian to start with.

Read Putin's demands. Putin wants everything. You tell me one thing he will concede or compromise in.

Putin's uncompromising demands emerge after the latest round of Russia-Ukraine peace talks

Both sides have established red lines that seemingly make any quick deal unlikely.

apnews.com

Get real. He hasn't even tried to Annex Belarus, which is run by a stooge.

Why annex Belarus when they're already a puppet state?

Were you aware that his legal counsel announced that the USSR wasn't legally dissolved? Why would they bother making a declaration about something that happened 30 years ago? Read about how Putin regrets the breakup of the USSR.

Putin started this war and he's the only one in Earth who can stop it today.

 

[Rogue Valley]

How three men signed the USSR's death warrant

When Mikhail Gorbachev resigned almost exactly 25 years ago - bringing the USSR to a sudden end - he had been left with little choice by the leaders of three Soviet republics.

www.bbc.com

Kravchuk of Ukraine and Shushkevich of Belarus (seated left), with Yeltsin of the Russian Federation (right)

 

[JoeB131]

The "next guy" isn't necessarily a warmonger. His successor might not be attempting to restore the former Soviet Union.

Again, placing a lot of hope on a speculation. The next guy could also be worse. Putin, like it or not, is a known quantity, and known quantities are nice when dealing with nuclear powers.

Read Putin's demands. Putin wants everything. You tell me one thing he will concede or compromise in.

Okay, I read his demands. he wants to keep the four provinces he's already annexed and Crimea, and he wants the West to stop militarizing Ukraine.

So compromise. He keeps the Donbas, returns Kherson and Zaporozhia, and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.

Why annex Belarus when they're already a puppet state?

Were you aware that his legal counsel announced that the USSR wasn't legally dissolved? Why would they bother making a declaration about something that happened 30 years ago? Read about how Putin regrets the breakup of the USSR.

Putin started this war and he's the only one in Earth who can stop it today.

Frankly, we should all regret the breakup of the USSR. It's caused nothing but Chaos ever since.

But no one seriously thinks it can be restored. He'd have an easier time taking back the Central Asian Republics no one cares about.

 

[soap box]

The Minsk Accords were after the 2014 Coup, which happened because of the Maidan Coup in Kyiv silenced the Pro-Russian candidate.

So basically, the Ukrainians said, "**** your vote" and the Russians in Crimea and Donbass said, "Peace Out"

The Minsk Accords were intended to contain the violence in Donbass, but Zelenskyy sabotaged them, and he was subsequently invaded for his trouble. Now he's going to lose a lot more territory than when he started.

Zelensky didn't sabotage the Minsk Accord. Putin did.

"Russia is in violation of the Minsk Agreements. The deals require a ceasefire, withdrawal of foreign military forces, disbanding of illegal armed groups, and returning control of the Ukrainian side of the international border with Russia to Ukraine, all of this under OSCE supervision. Russia has done none of this.

The original Minsk signatories are Russia, Ukraine, and the OSCE. Russia is a protagonist in the war in Ukraine and is fully obliged to follow the deal’s terms. Despite that, however, Russia untruthfully claims not to be a party and only a facilitator — and that the real agreements are between Ukraine and the so-called “separatists,” who call themselves the Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples’ Republics (LPR and DPR), but are in fact Russian supplied and directed.

February 2015, fighting had intensified to a level that led to renewed calls for a ceasefire, and ultimately led to the second Minsk Agreement, signed on February 12, 2015. Even after this agreement, Russian-led forces kept fighting and took the town of Debaltseve six days later. "

Don’t Let Russia Fool You About the Minsk Agreements

The deals reached several years ago are far from perfect, but they nonetheless offer a way to talk to Russia while pressing it not to invade further.

cepa.org

 

[soap box]

Again, placing a lot of hope on a speculation. The next guy could also be worse. Putin, like it or not, is a known quantity, and known quantities are nice when dealing with nuclear powers.

This is not an important point. Focus.

Okay, I read his demands. he wants to keep the four provinces he's already annexed and Crimea, and he wants the West to stop militarizing Ukraine.

So compromise. He keeps the Donbas, returns Kherson and Zaporozhia, and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.

Great idea! Tell Putin to compromise. Love it, why didn't trump think of that? Just tell him to compromise and I'm sure he will.

Frankly, we should all regret the breakup of the USSR. It's caused nothing but Chaos ever since.

OMG . Why choose despotism?

Yes, Putin will do that, destabilize everything around him. Don't blame the victims, blame Putin.

But no one seriously thinks it can be restored. He'd have an easier time taking back the Central Asian Republics no one cares about.

Central Asian countries could be next.
We're talking about a delusional warmonger. You and I know it's crazy but Putin is the one on the warpath.

 

[soap box]

Again, placing a lot of hope on a speculation. The next guy could also be worse. Putin, like it or not, is a known quantity, and known quantities are nice when dealing with nuclear powers.



Okay, I read his demands. he wants to keep the four provinces he's already annexed and Crimea, and he wants the West to stop militarizing Ukraine.

So compromise. He keeps the Donbas, returns Kherson and Zaporozhia, and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.




Frankly, we should all regret the breakup of the USSR. It's caused nothing but Chaos ever since.

But no one seriously thinks it can be restored. He'd have an easier time taking back the Central Asian Republics no one cares about.

Already not satisfied with Ukraine, Russia now says they want the Baltics

Russia's war demands have expanded beyond Ukraine, with a senior Kremlin official now insisting that NATO must withdraw completely from the Baltic States — Latvia, Lithuania

kyivinsider.com

Your message was of appeasement. What was I saying? I just saw this article based on Russian state media.

Do you see how removing these countries from NATO means Putin wants to invade a helpless victim.

I'm going to be reposting this article all day.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Or to not pick a fight that you can't win. That would also be a good idea.

Ukraine didn't pick a fight. Russia invaded Ukraine.

 

[Hamish Howl]

So compromise. He keeps the Donbas, returns Kherson and Zaporozhia, and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.

So Russia can do all of this again, like they did in Chechnya?

 

[Quag]

So Russia can do all of this again, like they did in Chechnya?

These appeasers clearly want Russia to expand using war

 

[WillyPete]

Okay, I read his demands. he wants to keep the four provinces he's already annexed and Crimea, and he wants the West to stop militarizing Ukraine.


So compromise. He keeps the Donbas, returns Kherson and Zaporozhia, and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.

Why would we believe Putin would hold up his end?

And how much sense does it make for them to volunteer to restrict themselves, again, when it is plain that they can't count on promises of help from other nations?

 

[Roadvirus]

Is war not hell? How many hundreds of thousands died during the occupation of Iraq? War is hell

Big surprise that you are also downplaying Bucha.

 

[Roadvirus]

Nope. Russia is sovereign and free to organise its own referendums

Wrong.

The referendums were illegal under international laws


Miroslav Jenča, Assistant Secretary-General for Europe, Central Asia and Americas, Departments of Political and Peacebuilding Affairs and Peace Operations, highlighted the UN’s principled position against Moscow’s move, stating: “The so-called elections in the occupied areas of Ukraine have no legal grounds.”

So-Called Elections in Occupied Areas of Ukraine ‘Have No Legal Grounds’, Undermine Peace Prospects, United Nations Official Tells Security Council | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

The Russian Federation’s latest illegal attempts to organize new so-called electoral processes in the occupied areas of Ukraine further undermine the prospects for peace, a senior United Nations official told the Security Council today, as speakers challenged the validity of the ongoing polls...

press.un.org

 

[Roadvirus]

When you are the class nerd getting curb stomped by the quarterback, you don't get extra points for annoying him even more.

So you don't believe that Ukraine has the right to defend itself? Noted.

 

[Roadvirus]

Even if mother Teresa conducted a referendum on Donbass and Crimea on what they want you will not accept it if the results show a desire to leave Ukraine

Mother Teresa wouldn't do anything like that.

 

[Roadvirus]

The Ukrainians started the war when they overthrew the elected President of Ukraine.

Unless you can prove that there was some military build up or calls for war against Russia by the Ukraine government, your claim is bullshit.

 

[Roadvirus]

Ukraine is losing the war on a daily basis.

Russia isn't exactly winning any victories, what with dead Russians piling up daily & losses in equipment.

Russia is not going to give up anything they now control.

That's too damn bad. They better get used to the idea that they aren't getting it.

 

[Roadvirus]

He keeps the Donbas

No.

and Ukraine's military is set at a limited level.

Why should the victim be limited to what kind of military it can have? That's messed up.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Russia isn't exactly winning any victories, what with dead Russians piling up daily & losses in equipment.




That's too damn bad. They better get used to the idea that they aren't getting it.

Not to mention the SBU getting 3 hard licks in in 10 days, with the Russians powerless to stop them.

 

[JoeB131]

Already not satisfied with Ukraine, Russia now says they want the Baltics

Russia's war demands have expanded beyond Ukraine, with a senior Kremlin official now insisting that NATO must withdraw completely from the Baltic States — Latvia, Lithuania

kyivinsider.com

Your message was of appeasement. What was I saying? I just saw this article based on Russian state media.

Do you see how removing these countries from NATO means Putin wants to invade a helpless victim.

I'm going to be reposting this article all day.

Letting the Baltic states join NATO was a huge mistake.

Look at this from the Russian point of view. They agreed to the breakup of the USSR and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. Instead of ratcheting down tensions, NATO inducted nearly all the WP countries, the Baltic states, and then started making noises about including Ukraine. In short, putting a hostile Alliance right on Russia's doorstep.

Given how many times Russia has been invaded by Napoleon, Hitler, the Kaiser, etc., you can't see how they would be genuinely concerned about that?