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As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

soap box said:
There's got to be a million Russians who would kill Putin in a second.
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Is that based on an internationally recognised referendum you organised ? Since you keep bringing up referendums, maybe you should also avoid claims of yours that are not backed by internationally recognised referendums



soap box said:
Are you saying Ukraine should simply surrender. Wouldn't that mean Putin would invade the next, country, and the next after that? Giving Putin everything he wants is not an end of war, it will instead start another.
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If that thesis is correct then it goes by same reasoning that because Serbia surrendered to Nato/Eu, and got amputated subsequently, that Nato would invade the next country, and the next after that? Maybe you have a point given that Nato/Eu since Serbia invaded other countries





Putin's demands are no different from the demands Nato/Eu put to Serbia
 
Roadvirus said:
It says alot about you when you shrug off the barbarity of Bucha with a simple "War is Hell"
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Is war not hell? How many hundreds of thousands died during the occupation of Iraq? War is hell
 
Roadvirus said:
It says alot about you when you shrug off the barbarity of Bucha with a simple "War is Hell"
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78-459 people were killed at Bucha. It's bad, but it's not Auschwitz.

Roadvirus said:
That's why the U.S....at least under Biden...started slapping sanctions on Chinese entities doing biz with Russia.
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And the Chinese didn't care. If anything, Trump's trade war on China is going to make them more keen to sell stuff to Russia.

Roadvirus said:
So does the U.S. (until Trump screws that up).

India is not as buddy-buddy with Russia like Iran, NK or China.
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And here's your problem. Modi is cut of the same clothe as Trump and Putin.

Roadvirus said:
That's because he's just obeying orders from Moscow.
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Or he just doesn't like that he got into his first impeachment and lost the election because Zelenskyy wouldn't give him the goods on Hunter Biden. Really doesn't matter what his motives are, does it? Point is, he's ready to cut the Comedian off at the knees, and just not much that you can do about it.

Roadvirus said:
Zelensky will be more then happy to stop....once Russia stops.

Ukraine has every right to send sabotage teams, targeting Russian industries & killing WAR CRIMINALS. They are defending themselves. It's up to Russia, the aggressor, to stop first.
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When you are the class nerd getting curb stomped by the quarterback, you don't get extra points for annoying him even more.
 
Juin said:
Even if he had excellent reasons for doing so?
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If it was to save ethnic Russians why are 200,000 other Russians expendable? Does Putin care if Russians live or die?

Why would sites far west of the Eastern oblasts be attacked from the beginning of the war if Putin intends to occupy the East? Why waste all that if he's not conducting a war of conquest but wastes his resources in the western parts that he doesn't want? Or is it really he wants Ukraine.

There was absolutely no one who ever really thought Ukraine would invade Russia. It's laughable to say Ukraine was going to attack Russia and start the war.

How about the Putin had no choice? LOL Who orders the Russian armed forces? Who's the boss over there? Somebody tricked him, cajoled him, blackmailed him? What?!! Who does Putin take orders from? Who ever told Putin what he should do?

Did I forget any other reasons? Please do tell.

Juin said:
Nope. Russia is sovereign and free to organise its own referendums
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Why won't Putin do exactly that? He's afraid of an election if he can't control it. Why did Gorbachev do it and Putin can't? Mainly because Gorbachev wasn't a delusional warmonger.
The Helsinki Commission monitored the Referendum of independence. Putin can't do that because he's chicken and he fears he'll lose. It bears consideration that citizens in Crimea may be more hesitant to join Putin's country after they've seen what he's willing to do. That would require a Referendum that can be monitored by international organizations. But, as you know, he can rigg his own election, but he's too scared of democracy to allow a peaceful solution.

How many elections has Putin lost?

Juin said:
I dont think you will believe any referendum that does not line up with your Kyiv narrative
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I don't care if a Referendum is monitored by A delegation from Japan, India, Ecuador, I don't care who reports on the transparency. If I can read the report I'll draw a conclusion then.

If a Referendum is monitored and observed then I will accept any result.

You might not be aware that I've consistently posted in favor of self determination. But how do I know who should be where. What's their opinions now? . Self determination is not about where the tanks are, it's about where the people live. I can look it up to see where the tanks are, but how can I be sure who's really in the right place? How do we categorize Ukranians living in the Donbass who don't want to be in Putins Russia?

A credible referendum will solve that and no one would die.

I'm for self determination,and I'm for peace, but I need proof and Putin can't give it to me.
 
JoeB131 said:
I can read a map. Ukraine has made no important gains since 2023.
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It would be foolish of them to attempt to make gains. The proper strategy when you are outnumbered is to allow the enemy to make stupid frontal assaults on prepared positions, as the Russians are prone to do.

The war will end when one government or the other collapses. Period.
 
JoeB131 said:
78-459 people were killed at Bucha. It's bad, but it's not Auschwitz.
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It doesn't have to be Auschwitz to be an atrocity.

Or an object lesson to not surrender under any circumstances.
 
Juin said:
Is that based on an internationally recognised referendum you organised ? Since you keep bringing up referendums, maybe you should also avoid claims of yours that are not backed by internationally recognised referendums
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I'll forgive your post.

Why would Serbia's or NATO's history predict what Putin will do? It doesn't . Compared to the largest country on Earth, Serbia is not the same.

You never made a persuasive argument that Putin can be trusted. You never explained why Putin was afraid of Ukraine and forced into a war, because neither is true.

Juin said:
Putin's demands are no different from the demands Nato/Eu put to Serbia
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A few significant and suppressing differences:

Did you include no further expansion of NATO?

Putin demands that Ukraine cannot be a member in any security agreement.

No international counterpart of maintaining the terms like the Civilian Implementation Mission or KFOR in 1999 is any part of his demands because we are supposed to trust Putin to abide by his own demands. Do you trust Putin?
 


Makes perfect sense
 
Juin said:
Even if he had excellent reasons for doing so?
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soap box said:
If it was to save ethnic Russians why are 200,000 other Russians expendable? Does Putin care if Russians live or die?
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hmmmm interesting. To liberate France during WWII the US lost some 30,000 soldiers; was that because FDR considered them expendable? Are we to ask whether FDR cared at all whether Americans lived or died?




In the war against Serbia to pry loose Kosovo all of Serbia was attacked, not just the Kosovo area. In the war to pry loose Kuwait from Iraq all of Iraq was attacked, not just the Kuwaiti area. There are excellent military reasons for that



soap box said:
There was absolutely no one who ever really thought Ukraine would invade Russia. It's laughable to say Ukraine was going to attack Russia and start the war.
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Back in 1962 no one absolutely thought Cuba would invade the US because it had Soviet nukes. Whether Cuba was gonna attack the US or not was besides the point, its possession of nukes was a threat the US found intolerable. Makes perfect sense. By same reasonings it is besides the point what Ukraine did; what is intolerable to Russia is that Nato's nuclear fist extends into Ukraine.





Those are your own reasons, not mine
 
.Juin said:
Nope. Russia is sovereign and free to organise its own referendums






Russia is a sovereign country and can conduct its own referendum
 
soap box said:
I don't care if a Referendum is monitored by A delegation from Japan, India, Ecuador, I don't care who reports on the transparency. If I can read the report I'll draw a conclusion then.
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You are not the western viceroy to Russia.




Even if mother Teresa conducted a referendum on Donbass and Crimea on what they want you will not accept it if the results show a desire to leave Ukraine
 
soap box said:
I'll forgive your post.
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You made a claim, back it up. You said there has to be a million Russians who will kill Putin. You keep asking for referendums, was your number from an internationally recognised referendum?



soap box said:
Why would Serbia's or NATO's history predict what Putin will do? It doesn't . Compared to the largest country on Earth, Serbia is not the same.
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That was your argument. You said if Russia emerges victorious from Ukraine, it will go ahead to attack another, then another. If your thesis is a valid one then it holds for anyone who emerged victorious from aggression. And Nato member countries have quite a few aggressions to account for. Which begs the question, did Nato member countries go on to attack Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan because no one stopped them in Serbia?



soap box said:
A few significant and suppressing differences:
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You forgot to present the differences between Nato/Eu demands on Serbia and that of Putin to Ukraine
 
Juin said:
hmmmm interesting. To liberate France during WWII the US lost some 30,000 soldiers; was that because FDR considered them expendable? Are we to ask whether FDR cared at all whether Americans lived or died?
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So Putin has sent more six times more men to their death, and he's not even close to stopping. How high do you imagine the Russian casualties become by the end of this? Your analogy is backwards because Nazis were the perpetrators as Putin is now.

Juin said:
In the war against Serbia to pry loose Kosovo all of Serbia was attacked, not just the Kosovo area. In the war to pry loose Kuwait from Iraq all of Iraq was attacked, not just the Kuwaiti area. There are excellent military reasons for that
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Not when we're talking about bombing apartments and urban Civilian areas.


There's no reason to believe anybody wants Ukraine to have nukes. NATO doesn't have nukes. Ukraine have up their nukes at the time of their independence. When did anyone suggest that?


Juin said:
Those are your own reasons, not mine
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Well, then we know Putin wasn't forced into starting the invasion.

Juin said:
.Juin said:
Nope. Russia is sovereign and free to organise its own referendums
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So why is Putin so scared of a monitored and free and fair election?
Juin said:
Russia is a sovereign country and can conduct its own referendum
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Why does Putin choose war and death instead of democracy?
 
Juin said:
You are not the western viceroy to Russia.
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I can tell he can't be trusted and he is responsible for this war.

Juin said:
Even if mother Teresa conducted a referendum on Donbass and Crimea on what they want you will not accept it if the results show a desire to leave Ukraine
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I have already explained to you that I have always supported self determination. But Putin doesn't want that. If Putin allows a free and transparent election and it is verified by an organization in the international community then I will accept the results.

That's because I support self determination but I don't trust Putin. The only way he can prove it is to put the gun down and let the people vote.
 
Juin said:
You made a claim, back it up. You said there has to be a million Russians who will kill Putin. You keep asking for referendums, was your number from an internationally recognised referendum?
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Lol, ok half a million lol
Juin said:
That was your argument. You said if Russia emerges victorious from Ukraine, it will go ahead to attack another, then another. If your thesis is a valid one then it holds for anyone who emerged victorious from aggression.
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You trust Putin to stop after this is over? Did Napoleon quit? This is a war of conquest.

Juin said:
And Nato member countries have quite a few aggressions to account for. Which begs the question, did Nato member countries go on to attack Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan because no one stopped them in Serbia?
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Do you really think NATO would start a war with Russia? Seriously. Were any of the nations you mentioned nuclear powers? Who ever claimed that Ukraine would attack Russia first?

Juin said:
You forgot to present the differences between Nato/Eu demands on Serbia and that of Putin to Ukraine
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I didn't forget them , I listed the key debilitating differences:

Did you include no further expansion of NATO?

Putin demands that Ukraine cannot be a member in any security agreement.

No international counterpart of maintaining the terms like the Civilian Implementation Mission or KFOR in 1999 is any part of his demands because we are supposed to trust Putin to abide by his own demands. Do you trust Putin?
 
soap box said:
So Putin has sent more six times more men to their death, and he's not even close to stopping. How high do you imagine the Russian casualties become by the end of this? Your analogy is backwards because Nazis were the perpetrators as Putin is now.
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What international referendum gave you your estimate of the deaths in that war?

Now you are evading your own thesis. This is what you said:

soap box said:
If it was to save ethnic Russians why are 200,000 other Russians expendable? Does Putin care if Russians live or die?


Address your thesis. Why were 30,000 American lives expendable when FDR liberated France? And why did FDR not care whether Americans lived or died?



soap box said:
Not when we're talking about bombing apartments and urban Civilian areas.
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LOL Gimme a break! The American, French, UK forces bombed apartments, Mosques and civilian areas in Iraq. The estimates of civilian deaths there run into the hundreds of thousands


soap box said:
There's no reason to believe anybody wants Ukraine to have nukes. NATO doesn't have nukes. Ukraine have up their nukes at the time of their independence. When did anyone suggest that?
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Nato doesnt have nukes?



soap box said:
Well, then we know Putin wasn't forced into starting the invasion.
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Actually, you set up a strawman
 
soap box said:
Why does Putin choose war and death instead of democracy?
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The same way others chosed enslavement of blacks and genocide of native americans.
 
soap box said:
I can tell he can't be trusted and he is responsible for this war.
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Not only this war. Putin is also responsible for aggressions on Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan





You dont support self determination when it comes to Russians. The Ukrainians started the war when they overthrew the elected President of Ukraine. Since you do not denounce that it is too much to ask that I buy your claim that you support self determination
 
soap box said:
Lol, ok half a million lol
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Where is your international referendum to back your claim?



soap box said:
You trust Putin to stop after this is over? Did Napoleon quit? This is a war of conquest.
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Putin is doing nothing different from the western countries. After Serbia, western countries went on to attack Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Who knows who is next. Western countries actually validate your thesis



soap box said:
Do you really think NATO would start a war with Russia? Seriously. Were any of the nations you mentioned nuclear powers? Who ever claimed that Ukraine would attack Russia first?
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Why not?
 
The war has not ground to a stalemate at all. It has been a slow grinding war all along. Ukraine is losing the war on a daily basis. Russia is not going to give up anything they now control. Ukraine needs to keep Odessa. If this goes on and on, Ukraine will lose more.
 
He cared and Putin most definitely does not.

The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) reported in a recent study that Russia will likely reach the 1 million casualty mark (killed and wounded) by the summer of 2025.[1] The CSIS report estimates that around 250,000 Russian soldiers have died in Ukraine since February 2022.[1]

The Economist in November 2023 estimated between 60,000 and 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers had been killed.


Yuriy Butusov (citing AFU headquarters) reported 70,000 killed and 35,000 missing as of December 4, 2024.

UALosses project reported 70,935 killed (including non-combat) and 64,995 missing as of May 21, 2025 (confirmed by names).


UA Losses
This website presents statistics of documented Ukrainian losses during the war in Ukraine.
ualosses.org ualosses.org
"This website maintains a list of Ukrainian soldiers killed in the current war, on the basis of public reports of deaths. These include announcements by local authorities, Ukrainian media, posts by relatives on social media, monuments to the dead. Missing soldiers are not counted.

All names included in the list are sourced. As only data that is available online is considered, the real level of losses is estimated to be considerably higher. In particular, available data is scarce for large cities, Transcarpathia, and most localities in the east and south; as a result, the casualties listed here are likely only a fraction of the real toll.

Data is also available by region, rank, age and military unit, although some reports did not include this information. In the future, it is planned to include more information, such as when a soldier joined the army / was mobilized, or the branch he served in. More detailed statistics will also be offered"

Putin started this war.
 
Juin said:
What international referendum gave you your estimate of the deaths in that war?
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That information would never be the subject of a referendum. I'm not sure what you're asking.


The USA didn't start the war. The Nazis did. It should be a bit obvious to anyone that fighting the Nazis is a worthy goal. Putin's war of conquest is not justified in any way.

Does Putin care if Russians live or die?

Roosevelt cared. It's repulsive to try to claim the two men were equivalent.

So six times more men have died for Putin and he hasn't stopped yet.





Juin said:
Nato doesnt have nukes?
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Never did.



Juin said:
Actually, you set up a strawman
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Putin was never forced into an invasion. Nobody forced him. Putin chose war and he's responsible for this.
 
Juin said:
LOL Gimme a break! The American, French, UK forces bombed apartments, Mosques and civilian areas in Iraq. The estimates of civilian deaths there run into the hundreds of thousands
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So we agree that we can condemn the killing of civilians. You are claiming it's equivalent so I agree how terrible the US, France, the UK and Putin are to be condemned.
 
Juin said:
The same way others chosed enslavement of blacks and genocide of native americans.
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This is 2025, but you're suggesting we regress to a more primal version of humanity.
 
Juin said:
Not only this war. Putin is also responsible for aggressions on Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan
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If you say so. That would suggest he will kill more.


I support self determination for ethnic Russians. But I don't trust Putin. Putin could prove his rationale if he could accept the results of a transparent election monitored by international organizations.
 
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