As Science Learns More, God/s Are Needed Less

[Bodi]

While science is indeed giving us unprecedented new knowledge of how the universe works, to rely on it completely and without question is not a good thing either.

Science is very fallible- many theories that were once accepted as the norm gets proven wrong later on, so the best way to live with it is with constant skepticism.

Sure, depend on science, but remain open-minded to other possibilities.

You have already proven that is what science does... it remains open and changes as new evidence and technology help.

Religion is what remains static and unaccepting of other ideas and evidence.

 

[Greenbeard]

Yesterday happened and tomorrow has not. Yesterday's locked in does not mean there is not choice regarding tomorrow.

That’s a different premise than the one I’m responding to you. You were contemplating a world in which tomorrow has effectively happened and in which all choices are locked in (i.e., one in which perfect knowledge of tomorrow is possible). If you’re now saying such a world is incompatible with free will, I don’t think we disagree.

No

If you’re just acting out a set of instructions such that all your actions can be predicted by another observer with 100% accuracy, in what sense do you have free will? Isn’t that essentially the definition of an automaton?

 

[Gordy327]

Yesterday happened and tomorrow has not. Yesterday's locked in does not mean there is not choice regarding tomorrow.

Besides, the whole argument is a waste because it is about God simply knowing what we are going to do. If he does not interfere in our choice them it is still free will, regardless of who already knows what we are going to choose.

No.

But if God knows, presumably with absolute certainty, what we are going to do before we do, then we are incapable of choosing any different. God's knowledge of out choice means our choice is set. There is no way we can choose any differently that what God already knows and what we perceive as "choice" is an illusion. Unless God is either wrong or is not omniscient.

 

[Bodi]

But if God knows, presumably with absolute certainty, what we are going to do before we do, then we are incapable of choosing any different. God's knowledge of out choice means our choice is set. There is no way we can choose any differently that what God already knows and what we perceive as "choice" is an illusion. Unless God is either wrong or is not omniscient.

You are missing the fundamental point. God did not interfere or influence our choice.

 

[devildavid]

Yes and no. It's impossible to interpret any science without taking various philosophical positions. An equation is objective, but translating it into a conceptual understanding of reality takes philosophical leaps. As I mentioned above, scientific realism itself is not some objective default, it's an affirmative philosophical position. Take quantum mechanics, where the formalism is not in question (and is objectively quite accurate in a prediction-making sense), but the interpretation of the formalism and how to understand what it's telling us about what the universe is "really" like has been a source of heated--and unresolved--debate for a century.



Well, I don't know what "merely story telling" is meant to imply but it's certainly about story telling. Beyond practical application, the whole point is to come up with a conceptual feel for how the universe works.

Not the same as story telling.

 

[Mulefoot]

My man Tice does a nice job explaining our position...

The logical conclusion that flows from Neil's point then is that a perfect universe is the only possibility outcome with the existence of a all-powerful, benevolent, creator God.

 

[Gordy327]

You are missing the fundamental point. God did not interfere or influence our choice.

God doesn't have to. God already knows our "choice." The choice is set.

 

[Greenbeard]

Not the same as story telling.

Insofar as we're talking about the use of science to build an ontology, coming up with a conception of what exists in the universe, I would say that's very much an exercise in storytelling. It's a natural thing humans need! We want a conception that makes intuitive sense to us and makes us feel like the universe is comprehensible in some way. So you'll have no shortage of folks who want to tell you that the universe is made of tiny vibrating strings, or that an object's position changes in the manner it does due to the curvature of spacetime, etc. as though these are statements of ontic fact. That conceptual crutch, the philosophical commitments one makes to bridge the mathematical structure of the universe we discover and the translation of it into a story of specific concepts, constructs, and relata (subject to the structure) is what I'm describing as storytelling. It's a more sophisticated version of what humans have been doing for millennia.

 

[Bodi]

God doesn't have to. God already knows our "choice." The choice is set.

The choice is not set if we have not made it yet... time paradox's confuse many people.

 

[Daisy]

Free will/choice explains why bad things happen to good people...

Should God intervene and prevent people from doing bad things? Consider how man is made. The Scriptures say that God created man in God’s own image, that is, in God’s likeness. Thus, humans have the ability to reflect God’s qualities. (Genesis 1:26) Humans have been given the gift of free will and can choose to love God and stick to him by doing what is right in his eyes. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) If God coerced people into following a certain course, would he not be nullifying the gift of free will? Why, humans would be reduced to nothing more than machines, doing exactly what they were programmed to do! The same would be true if fate, or Kismet, dictated what we do and everything that happens to us. How glad we can be that God dignifies us by allowing us to choose our own course! This does not mean, though, that the harm caused by human error and bad choices will forever plague mankind.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014483

 

[devildavid]

Insofar as we're talking about the use of science to build an ontology, coming up with a conception of what exists in the universe, I would say that's very much an exercise in storytelling. It's a natural thing humans need! We want a conception that makes intuitive sense to us and makes us feel like the universe is comprehensible in some way. So you'll have no shortage of folks who want to tell you that the universe is made of tiny vibrating strings, or that an object's position changes in the manner it does due to the curvature of spacetime, etc. as though these are statements of ontic fact. That conceptual crutch, the philosophical commitments one makes to bridge the mathematical structure of the universe we discover and the translation of it into a story of specific concepts, constructs, and relata (subject to the structure) is what I'm describing as storytelling. It's a more sophisticated version of what humans have been doing for millennia.

No it is not storytelling in any sense of the word.

 

[devildavid]

Free will/choice explains why bad things happen to good people...

Should God intervene and prevent people from doing bad things? Consider how man is made. The Scriptures say that God created man in God’s own image, that is, in God’s likeness. Thus, humans have the ability to reflect God’s qualities. (Genesis 1:26) Humans have been given the gift of free will and can choose to love God and stick to him by doing what is right in his eyes. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) If God coerced people into following a certain course, would he not be nullifying the gift of free will? Why, humans would be reduced to nothing more than machines, doing exactly what they were programmed to do! The same would be true if fate, or Kismet, dictated what we do and everything that happens to us. How glad we can be that God dignifies us by allowing us to choose our own course! This does not mean, though, that the harm caused by human error and bad choices will forever plague mankind.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014483

If humans do bad things it is because god made their nature in such a way that they derive positive feelings from doing bad things. Human beings did not create their own nature, god did.

 

[PoS]

What other possibilities are there than what the scientific study of the physical universe can discover? Science employs a skeptical method, and is open to skepticism.

Really? Tell that to the ones pushing the climate change hypothesis then, for they attack skeptics and refuse to listen to other viewpoints. LOL

You have already proven that is what science does... it remains open and changes as new evidence and technology help.

Religion is what remains static and unaccepting of other ideas and evidence.

Science can be politicized however, and that's the point Im making here.

 

[Bodi]

Science can be politicized however, and that's the point Im making here.

Agreed.

 

[Gordy327]

The choice is not set if we have not made it yet... time paradox's confuse many people.

The choice is set if it is already known to be made and we are incapable of choosing any different than what is already known.

 

[Bodi]

The choice is set if it is already known to be made and we are incapable of choosing any different than what is already known.

LOL

 

[devildavid]

Really? Tell that to the ones pushing the climate change hypothesis then, for they attack skeptics and refuse to listen to other viewpoints. LOL


Science can be politicized however, and that's the point Im making here.

Paranoid conspiracy theory mistrust of real science can be politicized as well.

 

[Gordy327]

Really? Tell that to the ones pushing the climate change hypothesis then, for they attack skeptics and refuse to listen to other viewpoints. LOL

Maybe because other viewpoints lack evidence to support them or refute current evidence of climate change.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Free will/choice explains why bad things happen to good people...

Should God intervene and prevent people from doing bad things? Consider how man is made. The Scriptures say that God created man in God’s own image, that is, in God’s likeness. Thus, humans have the ability to reflect God’s qualities. (Genesis 1:26) Humans have been given the gift of free will and can choose to love God and stick to him by doing what is right in his eyes. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) If God coerced people into following a certain course, would he not be nullifying the gift of free will? Why, humans would be reduced to nothing more than machines, doing exactly what they were programmed to do! The same would be true if fate, or Kismet, dictated what we do and everything that happens to us. How glad we can be that God dignifies us by allowing us to choose our own course! This does not mean, though, that the harm caused by human error and bad choices will forever plague mankind.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014483

You never explained how a 3 year old getting brain cancer is caused by free will. There's no rational reason for god to have created children's brain cancer.

Really? Tell that to the ones pushing the climate change hypothesis then, for they attack skeptics and refuse to listen to other viewpoints. LOL


Science can be politicized however, and that's the point Im making here.

In order to fight a scientific hypothesis, you have to present scientific studies and evidence within that framework. It's been proven that CO2 content is rising and that the Earth is warming. If you want to refute that, perform a scientific study and publish your results for peer review. Why don't you want to be rich and famous for scientifically disproving climate change?

 

[PoS]

Maybe because other viewpoints lack evidence to support them or refute current evidence of climate change.

Plenty of evidence if you look for it:

IPCC Report Criticized by One of Its Lead Authors - Competitive Enterprise Institute

Georgia Op-Ed in Heartland Environment and Climate News Georgia Op-Ed in Heartland Environment and Climate News Politics, not science, drives the United Nations' work on climate change, warns Dr. Richard Lindzen, one of the world's leading atmospheric physicists. The Third Assessment Report...

cei.org

Consensus? 500+ Scientific Papers Published In 2018 Support A Skeptical Position On Climate Alarm

notrickszone.com

Global Warming Petition Project

You never explained how a 3 year old getting brain cancer is caused by free will. There's no rational reason for god to have created children's brain cancer.


In order to fight a scientific hypothesis, you have to present scientific studies and evidence within that framework. It's been proven that CO2 content is rising and that the Earth is warming. If you want to refute that, perform a scientific study and publish your results for peer review. Why don't you want to be rich and famous for scientifically disproving climate change?

See above. The only ones getting rich from climate change are scammers like Al Gore.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Plenty of evidence if you look for it:

IPCC Report Criticized by One of Its Lead Authors - Competitive Enterprise Institute

Georgia Op-Ed in Heartland Environment and Climate News Georgia Op-Ed in Heartland Environment and Climate News Politics, not science, drives the United Nations' work on climate change, warns Dr. Richard Lindzen, one of the world's leading atmospheric physicists. The Third Assessment Report...

cei.org

Consensus? 500+ Scientific Papers Published In 2018 Support A Skeptical Position On Climate Alarm

notrickszone.com

Global Warming Petition Project

See above. The only ones getting rich from climate change are scammers like Al Gore.

No, posting a blog link on an internet forum is not disproving climate change. Who said anything about making money? Publish your findings and have them peer reviewed. Why would you not want to become rich and famous by exposing this fraud?

 

[Daisy]

You never explained how a 3 year old getting brain cancer is caused by free will. There's no rational reason for god to have created children's brain cancer.

It ain't rocket science...a flawed immune system, like all other diseases...

 

[RabidAlpaca]

It ain't rocket science...a flawed immune system, like all other diseases...

So why did god create our bodies with a flaw that gives us cancer? How is that in any way related to free will and why would he be so cruel?

 

[Bodi]

It ain't rocket science...a flawed immune system, like all other diseases...

Why would god create cancer or an inadequate immune system in the first place?

 

[Daisy]

Why would god create cancer or an inadequate immune system in the first place?

He didn't...the introduction of disobedience did...inherited much like anything else that is inherited from our forefathers...