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Artemis Program

Hmm. Maybe. But I think that presupposes too much. The sun isn't expected to become a red giant for 5.5 billion years. That's longer than Earth itself has existed so far. Considering how long mankind has been on earth, the idea that we'd still exist in our present form for that long a time seems like very limited thinking. If we don't foolishly exterminate ourselves in the next 500,000 years, we might evolve into something completely transcendent of our existence as we know it. And even then, we'd still have another 5 billion years to figure it out. In that length of time we might discover we don't even need bodies anymore. Or travel inter-dimensionally. Or travel through time. Or who-knows-what?

Those might seem like the only two choices now, but we still have billions of years before we can even begin to imagine all the possible horizons our existence might come to.
True, much can happen in the next few hundred years that might doom mankind. As intelligent as we are there's a selfish recklessness about us that can't be denied.

If we do survive long enough the moons of Jupiter and Saturn could be a sanctuary as they warm from a dying sun, Titan in particular with its thick atmosphere.
 
The late, great Carl Sagan once said that all species become either spacefaring or extinct.

He was right.

Exactly so.... and I think I quoted (without due attribution) Konstantin Tsiolkovsky - the father of modern rocketry - earlier in this thread.... "The Earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind cannot stay in the cradle forever." To attempt do so is just a recipe for stagnation. The Chinese get this concept better than most... in the 15th Century, they had the most advanced vessels in the world - under Admiral Zheng He they branched out and explored all the way to Africa - even beyond. If they had kept up with the effort, their naval technology would have dwarfed the West. The New World would likely have been settled from and by China. But they didn't - they disbanded the effort and let their treasure ships rot and let the technology become lost and in so doing, they opened themselves up for centuries of decline and stagnation.
 
Exactly so.... and I think I quoted (without due attribution) Konstantin Tsiolkovsky - the father of modern rocketry - earlier in this thread.... "The Earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind cannot stay in the cradle forever." To attempt do so is just a recipe for stagnation. The Chinese get this concept better than most... in the 15th Century, they had the most advanced vessels in the world - under Admiral Zheng He they branched out and explored all the way to Africa - even beyond. If they had kept up with the effort, their naval technology would have dwarfed the West. The New World would likely have been settled from and by China. But they didn't - they disbanded the effort and let their treasure ships rot and let the technology become lost and in so doing, they opened themselves up for centuries of decline and stagnation.
Goddard was the father of modern rocketry.

Tsiolkovsky was pivotal, to be sure, but Goddard got it done.
 
Goddard was the father of modern rocketry.

Tsiolkovsky was pivotal, to be sure, but Goddard got it done.

Lots of people can lay claim to the title.... Tsiolkovsy, Goddard.... Hermann Oberth and Robert Esnault-Pelterie as well. I don't want to take anything away from any of them - they're all brilliant men. Tsiolkovsky got there first, though - and it was his line of thinking that put the first man in space. Hard to argue with first. :)
 
The ARTEMIS — or "Acceleration, Re-connection, Turbulence and Electrodynamics of the Moon's Interaction with the Sun".

The name Artemis was also selected for the goddess of the hunt and twin sister of Apollo (a reference to the Apollo project).

I'm excited about the program, it's something most of us will witness in our lifetime.
 
The ARTEMIS — or "Acceleration, Re-connection, Turbulence and Electrodynamics of the Moon's Interaction with the Sun".

The name Artemis was also selected for the goddess of the hunt and twin sister of Apollo (a reference to the Apollo project).

I'm excited about the program, it's something most of us will witness in our lifetime.
By hook or by crook, I will see a Moon shot if I'm alive when it happens.
 
A depiction of what the Artemis moon base will look like.

Depiction of Artemis Moon Base.jpg

 
Of all the hazards radiation is probably the most concerning.

The space agency said it will have radiation detectors and a safe shelter aboard all Orion crew capsules flying to the moon.

Moon explorers will be bombarded with two to three times more radiation than astronauts aboard the International Space Station, a health hazard that will require thick walled shelters for protection once the base camp is set up.

The location of the camp is important as well, the inner walls of craters receive less radiation.

Vest are a work in progress, protecting the entire body at this time would deem the suits to heavy. Time spent outside of protected structures will be closely monitored.
Astronauts will face up to 150 times more radiation once they leave the protection of low-Earth orbit. The "safe shelter" is also only useful in the event of a CME, because we will have ~18 hours or more of advanced warning. However, it will offer no protection against the completely random gamma-ray bursts and cosmic radiation.

Prudue University, MIT, and the University of Washington are working on possible solutions, but neither have anything functional yet. I like the University of Washington's approach, using a plasma "bubble" to generate an electromagnetic shield. Apparently NASA likes it well enough to look into it further.


The radiation protection needs to extend to the entire spacecraft. Making just part of the spacecraft radiation proof won't cut it.
 
Astronauts will face up to 150 times more radiation once they leave the protection of low-Earth orbit. The "safe shelter" is also only useful in the event of a CME, because we will have ~18 hours or more of advanced warning. However, it will offer no protection against the completely random gamma-ray bursts and cosmic radiation.

Prudue University, MIT, and the University of Washington are working on possible solutions, but neither have anything functional yet. I like the University of Washington's approach, using a plasma "bubble" to generate an electromagnetic shield. Apparently NASA likes it well enough to look into it further.


The radiation protection needs to extend to the entire spacecraft. Making just part of the spacecraft radiation proof won't cut it.
At this point in time its a problem that hasn't been totally solved ..yet the Artemis mission is a go. Beyond Mars is Titan a moon with a thick atmosphere of nitrogen along with Saturn’s magnetosphere both provide shelter from dangerous radiation.

As it relates to science and NASA its the moons of Saturn and Jupiter that are driving all of this forward IMHO.


191017_titan_dunes.jpg


 
At this point in time its a problem that hasn't been totally solved ..yet the Artemis mission is a go. Beyond Mars is Titan a moon with a thick atmosphere of nitrogen along with Saturn’s magnetosphere both provide shelter from dangerous radiation.

As it relates to science and NASA its the moons of Saturn and Jupiter that are driving all of this forward IMHO.
Then we are pretty much taking the same risks that we took between 1969 and 1972. Which means that astronauts are going to die due to radiation, and we're okay with that reality now.

Using current technology the astronauts would not survive a round-trip journey to Mars. There will also be no lunar base if they do not solve this radiation problem. Only astronauts with a death wish need apply.

If we expect to send manned-missions beyond the moon, we're also going to need much faster rockets.
 
Then we are pretty much taking the same risks that we took between 1969 and 1972. Which means that astronauts are going to die due to radiation, and we're okay with that reality now.

Using current technology the astronauts would not survive a round-trip journey to Mars. There will also be no lunar base if they do not solve this radiation problem. Only astronauts with a death wish need apply.

If we expect to send manned-missions beyond the moon, we're also going to need much faster rockets.
All true, 7 years to Jupiter at about 35,000 mph as it stands now ..the distances in space are mind blowing.

As far as radiation is concerned, the problem has not been totally solved. The moon base depiction I posted shows the dirt mound, its function will
protect astronauts from most of the dangerous radiation, however, when outside of the mound astronauts won't be completely protected as it stands now.

Some context - Astronauts would get 200 to 1,000 times more radiation on the moon than what we experience on Earth — or five to 10 times more than passengers on a trans-Atlantic airline flight. Radiation levels should be pretty much the same all over the moon, except for near the walls of deep craters and that's not where the
base will be.

Its a work in progress ..keep in mind the program was initially launched in 2017 by the Trump Administration with the goal of private companies building a lunar economy.
Need I say more.

 
All true, 7 years to Jupiter at about 35,000 mph as it stands now ..the distances in space are mind blowing.

As far as radiation is concerned, the problem has not been totally solved. The moon base depiction I posted shows the dirt mound, its function will
protect astronauts from most of the dangerous radiation, however, when outside of the mound astronauts won't be completely protected as it stands now.

Some context - Astronauts would get 200 to 1,000 times more radiation on the moon than what we experience on Earth — or five to 10 times more than passengers on a trans-Atlantic airline flight. Radiation levels should be pretty much the same all over the moon, except for near the walls of deep craters and that's not where the
base will be.

Its a work in progress ..keep in mind the program was initially launched in 2017 by the Trump Administration with the goal of private companies building a lunar economy.
Need I say more.

Good article, and accurate. Which is unusual for the media.

Since we are better aware of the dangers than we were between 1969 and 1972, I would expect NASA to make the manned Artemis launch during a time when we know the Sun will be at solar minimum. It will at least significantly reduce the risk of solar radiation. Unfortunately, the solar minimum just happened to have been between 2019 and 2020. The next solar minimum won't be until 2030 or 2031. The absolute worst time to send a manned-mission beyond the low-Earth orbit would be between 2024 and 2026 which will be the next solar maximum.

We need to develop better rocket engines. Chemical rockets will never be able to generate enough thrust. We need engines capable of generating 1 G (9.8 m/s^2) of continous thrust. With 1 G of constant acceleration the astronauts could be in lunar orbit within 3 hours, and at Mars in just 3 days. It would only take 10 days to reach any of Jupiter's moons.
 
Addendum:

The estimated times in the above post were just off the top of my head. After performing the math these are the corrected times for 1 G continuous thrust (including the constant deceleration of 1 G beginning at the half-way point):

Object
Distance (km)​
Days​
Hours​
Minutes​
Seconds​
Moon
384,400​
0​
3​
28​
41.6​
Mars
56,005,171​
1​
17​
59​
1.5​
Jupiter
587,410,560​
5​
15​
58​
6.3​
Saturn
1,374,933,063​
8​
16​
1​
16.9​

The distances used are the distance the object is from Earth at is closest point to Earth.
 
Countries all over the world, including the US, are staking out there claims in the Arctic regions as the ice melts. Why? an ice-free Arctic will allow for the exploitation of its riches.

Unfortunately, at least to some degree the same thing is going on with the moons resources, its ugly and speaks to the human condition and greed. NASA who I love is IMHO feeding into the the
frenzy.

As it stands now there are multiple Countries all racing to the moon ..the US, China, Russia, India and Japan are just a few. The Magna Carta of the Moon was established
when Apollo 11's Buzz Aldrin planted the US flag into the Lunar surface in 1969 ..in 2019 China staked its claim on the moon with its flag.

_115800427_flag_body.jpg


When looking at the Artemis program from this perspective it makes some sense that the dangers of radiation could become less significant.

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Chemical Rockets, Plasma Propulsion Engines , Ion Drives, Thermal Fission, Solar Sails, all speak to the future of space exploration.
 
Countries all over the world, including the US, are staking out there claims in the Arctic regions as the ice melts. Why? an ice-free Arctic will allow for the exploitation of its riches.
As we have already demonstrated in Alaska, we do not need to wait for an ice-free Arctic to exploit its resources. There is also no one staking any claims in the Arctic. Those borders were decided centuries ago.

Unfortunately, at least to some degree the same thing is going on with the moons resources, its ugly and speaks to the human condition and greed. NASA who I love is IMHO feeding into the the frenzy.
The moon is not a good resource. The only resource the moon has that Earth does not is Helium-3. What makes the moon important is future missions to other planets. It is much easier to ship Helium-3 into space from the moon than to ship any resource from Earth into space. Which would make the moon a better choice for refueling spacecraft once spacecraft leave Earth's gravity well.

Helium-3, by the way, is only useful for fueling a fusion reaction. So establishing a refueling base on the moon before we develop viable thermonuclear fusion power would be a complete waste of time and put astronauts lives at risk for no reason.

As it stands now there are multiple Countries all racing to the moon ..the US, China, Russia, India and Japan are just a few. The Magna Carta of the Moon was established when Apollo 11's Buzz Aldrin planted the US flag into the Lunar surface in 1969 ..in 2019 China staked its claim on the moon with its flag.

_115800427_flag_body.jpg


When looking at the Artemis program from this perspective it makes some sense that the dangers of radiation could become less significant.
The dangers of radiation would only become less significant if you are eager to intentionally put astronauts to death. We know China and Russia care nothing for human life. It remains to be seen whether Japan or India will have the same disregard for human life. Although, I suspect the Japanese are much more interested in unmanned missions than any manned-mission.

I certainly hope that the US would not put political expediency or prestige above human life. However, I also know that Democrats have the exact same disregard for human life as all the other communists, fascists, and totalitarians. So I would not put it past a Democrat-controlled Congress and a Democrat President to gleefully sacrifice astronauts lives if it will gain them a few political points.

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Chemical Rockets, Plasma Propulsion Engines , Ion Drives, Thermal Fission, Solar Sails, all speak to the future of space exploration.
Actually, they all speak of past space exploration. They are all old technology and unacceptably slow. They are like driving a Ford Model-T on a teaspoon of gasoline, when we really need a Bugatti Chiron with a full tank of gasoline.
 
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As we have already demonstrated in Alaska, we do not need to wait for an ice-free Arctic to exploit its resources. There is also no one staking any claims in the Arctic. Those borders were decided centuries ago.
Comparing Alaska to the Arctic regions doesn't make sense ..latitudes matter as to the cold. Borders in the Arctic regions are not written in stone, you would do well to cite some of
your resources.

As the Arctic's many resources become more available for exploitation, other nations with no legal exploitation rights are trying to stake a claim in the resource race. Many have argued that the Arctic region is a "Global Commons" and cannot be governed by a few countries. Changes in the Arctic will have worldwide impacts and greed may very well end up in war.


 
Actually, they all speak of past space exploration. They are all old technology and unacceptably slow. They are like driving a Ford Model-T on a teaspoon of gasoline, when we really need a Bugatti Chiron with a full tank of gasoline.
No they don,t ..Nuclear-powered thermal rockets are more effective than chemical thermal rockets, primarily because they can use low-molecular-mass propellant such as hydrogen.


 
The moon is not a good resource. The only resource the moon has that Earth does not is Helium-3. What makes the moon important is future missions to other planets. It is much easier to ship Helium-3 into space from the moon than to ship any resource from Earth into space. Which would make the moon a better choice for refueling spacecraft once spacecraft leave Earth's gravity well.
Launched by the Trump Administration, the Artemis Program was to to develop a Lunar economy which may include future exploitation of its resources sometime in the future.

NASA and its scientist are the one who are interested in exploration not business minded politicians.

 
I certainly hope that the US would not put political expediency or prestige above human life. However, I also know that Democrats have the exact same disregard for human life as all the other communists, fascists, and totalitarians. So I would not put it past a Democrat-controlled Congress and a Democrat President to gleefully sacrifice astronauts lives if it will gain them a few political points
What a BS statement, has no business in a science thread, please take your hateful political garbage somewhere else.
 
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