Are you sure there is no God ? [W: 352]

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I agree with the statement no human can know there are no gods but my response was to you stating that no human can know that God exists. Quite different. To state no one can know God exists excludes the possibility of God revealing Himself to someone.

I have kept the two completely separate...and if you see a spot where I did not include a proviso for a god revealing itself...tell me where it is and I will add the proviso.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Prove it's impossible for any human to possess knowledge of the existence/non-existant of gods.

Let's keep it to what I have been saying.

No human can be sure there are no gods.

 

[laska]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I have kept the two completely separate...and if you see a spot where I did not include a proviso for a god revealing itself...tell me where it is and I will add the proviso.

Post 542 gives that impression.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Let's keep it to what I have been saying.

No human can be sure there are no gods.

Yes, you are saying it is impossible for any human to be sure there are no gods. Can you prove this is impossible? Because if you cannot prove it's impossible, then it's possible.

 

[Howler63]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I doubt you can "prove" anything...but even if you could "prove" that every god ever worshiped on this planet was a created god...it would not impact on the question of whether or not there are gods at all.

You do understand logic, right?

I do, but it still seems to elude you. According to your 'logic' if I just make up an idea or thing out of whole cloth and say it's true....then it can not be proven NOT to exist? That's not how reason works, my friend.

You are making the outrageous claim of the existence of a god...thus it's up to you to PROVE he exists. And until you present that poof, he DOESN'T.

You can't make extraordinary claims and demand that people prove it doesn't exit...you must provide proof to support that outrageous claim.

That's how logic works.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Post 542 gives that impression.

I don't think it does...but..

TO EVERYONE:

If my post 542 give the impression that I am saying "It is impossible for a human to know if a god exists"...it was an accident of my wording...and the fact that I was being a bit wise-acre in my response.

NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.

It is at least POSSIBLE for a human to KNOW there is a GOD...because a god could communicate its existence if it so chose.


Frankly, I don't think it has ever happened, but that is just a guess.


Do you feel better?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I do, but it still seems to elude you. According to your 'logic' if I just make up an idea or thing out of whole cloth and say it's true....then it can not be proven NOT to exist? That's not how reason works, my friend.

My "friends" do not speak to me in that condescending tone.

That aside: I have never said anything of the sort. If you are going to tell me what I have said...QUOTE ME EXACTLY...AND PROVIDE A LINK TO THE QUOTE.

You are making the outrageous claim of the existence of a god...

Get your ducks in a row BEFORE posting.

I have never in all the tens of thousands of posts I have made here and at other sites...EVER made a claim of the existence of a god. To even suggest that indicates you probably do not know what you are talking about.

Quote me...do not paraphrase.

thus it's up to you to PROVE he exists. And until you present that poof, he DOESN'T.

I don't have to prove anything. I am not making an assertion about whether gods exist or not.

I have absolutely no idea if REALITY contains gods or not...and I have said that right along.

You can't make extraordinary claims and demand that people prove it doesn't exit...you must provide proof to support that outrageous claim.

Wake up...and get real.

Then post.

That's how logic works.

Do not talk about how logic works. You obviously have no idea of how it works.

 

[laska]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I don't think it does...but..

TO EVERYONE:

If my post 542 give the impression that I am saying "It is impossible for a human to know if a god exists"...it was an accident of my wording...and the fact that I was being a bit wise-acre in my response.

NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.

It is at least POSSIBLE for a human to KNOW there is a GOD...because a god could communicate its existence if it so chose.


Frankly, I don't think it has ever happened, but that is just a guess.


Do you feel better?

You didn't have to do that but yes that's much better.

 

[Howler63]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

My "friends" do not speak to me in that condescending tone.

That aside: I have never said anything of the sort. If you are going to tell me what I have said...QUOTE ME EXACTLY...AND PROVIDE A LINK TO THE QUOTE.



Get your ducks in a row BEFORE posting.

I have never in all the tens of thousands of posts I have made here and at other sites...EVER made a claim of the existence of a god. To even suggest that indicates you probably do not know what you are talking about.

Quote me...do not paraphrase.




I don't have to prove anything. I am not making an assertion about whether gods exist or not.

I have absolutely no idea if REALITY contains gods or not...and I have said that right along.



Wake up...and get real.

Then post.



Do not talk about how logic works. You obviously have no idea of how it works.

You said: "NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS." Correct?

 

[Ikari]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

You said: "NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS." Correct?

That is true. He is saying that it is impossible for any human to ever know that there are no gods. But he doesn't prove that it is impossible for any human to know that there are no gods. Thus by his own argument that states that anything not demonstrated to be impossible is possible, it's possible that some human somewhere could know there are no gods.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

You said: "NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS." Correct?

I did.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

That is true. He is saying that it is impossible for any human to ever know that there are no gods. But he doesn't prove that it is impossible for any human to know that there are no gods. Thus by his own argument that states that anything not demonstrated to be impossible is possible, it's possible that some human somewhere could know there are no gods.

How easy it would be for you to show me I am wrong.

All you have to do is to devise a scenario that has a human KNOWING that there are no gods.

But you cannot do it...because the "proof" is inherent in the statement.

There is no way to KNOW there are no gods.

 

[Howler63]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

That is true. He is saying that it is impossible for any human to ever know that there are no gods. But he doesn't prove that it is impossible for any human to know that there are no gods. Thus by his own argument that states that anything not demonstrated to be impossible is possible, it's possible that some human somewhere could know there are no gods.

The he is also saying that 'NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO 52.6 FEET TALL BEARS WITH SCHOOL BUSES FOR TAILS AND CINNAMON ROLLS FOR EYES."

It's the exact same argument. I can create all sorts of ridiculous 'things' that no one can 'prove' don't exist.

Black holes with teeth.

Pixies.

Haggis that doesn't taste like vomit.

The list is endless.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

How easy it would be for you to show me I am wrong.

Trying to shift burden of proof, tsk tsk.

You made the claim, you say it's impossible for any human to know there are no gods. Prove that it's impossible. If you cannot prove it's impossible, then it is possible.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

The he is also saying that 'NO HUMAN CAN EVER KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO 52.6 FEET TALL BEARS WITH SCHOOL BUSES FOR TAILS AND CINNAMON ROLLS FOR EYES."

It's the exact same argument. I can create all sorts of ridiculous 'things' that no one can 'prove' don't exist.

Black holes with teeth.

Pixies.

Haggis that doesn't taste like vomit.

The list is endless.

Then do not assert those things do not exist.

I wouldn't.

In any case...no human can be certain there are no gods.

 

[Howler63]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I did.

Ok. I see where you're coming from now. It's not reason, it's semantics. It's impossible for humans to 'know' anything. Got it.

Carry on.

 

[Russell797]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I'm one of those guys who says gods are improbable. But, Frank would correctly call that nothing more than a guess. I think it's a good guess though.

I would agree with you. In our universe the laws of nature preclude such things as god(s), ghosts, souls and spirits. If they do exist they must do so outside or beyond the physics which we understand to govern all of matter and energy and thus all we can possibly know about or interact with. However, maybe our universe is not all there is, despite how irrational that may seem to us.

 

[Zyphlin]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Moderator's Warning:

Folks, lets stick to the topic. And also please be mindful this is the philosophy forum, and attempts to derail a thread through continual attacks on the notion of skepticism can result in action. Some have been taken and more will be done if necessary.

 

[Russell797]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Prove it's impossible for any human to possess knowledge of the existence/non-existant of gods.

It is impossible to prove the existence or non-existence of god(s), spirits, ghosts or souls.

The reason for that certainty follows from the fact that those imagined entities defy the laws of physics. They are neither matter or energy. If they were matter or energy they would be detectable by means of the forces which make everything else detectable. If they in fact do objectively exist in some sense then they do so outside our physical universe which is governed by those set of rules we understand. We know nothing about anything else.

People have to stop looking for a logical means for justifying their irrational beliefs. It can not be done.

 

[Nilly]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

It is impossible to prove the existence or non-existence of god(s), spirits, ghosts or souls.

The reason for that certainty follows from the fact that those imagined entities defy the laws of physics. They are neither matter or energy. If they were matter or energy they would be detectable by means of the forces which make everything else detectable. If they in fact do objectively exist in some sense then they do so outside our physical universe which is governed by those set of rules we understand. We know nothing about anything else.

People have to stop looking for a logical means for justifying their irrational beliefs. It can not be done.

It is possible to prove their existence. If empiric evidence of these things arose, it could be taken as proof of their existence. On the other hand, it isn't possible to prove their non-existence.

That's why the burden of proof lies with those claiming that god exists. And that is why it is perfectly logical and rational to dismiss claims of existence that do not have any evidence, and to accept claims of non-existence.

The theist/atheist scale is not balanced. It is tilted to one side, and that's why when people try to say atheists are the same as theists, they forgetting that very important fact.

 

[Russell797]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

It is possible to prove their existence. If empiric evidence of these things arose, it could be taken as proof of their existence. On the other hand, it isn't possible to prove their non-existence.

That's why the burden of proof lies with those claiming that god exists. And that is why it is perfectly logical and rational to dismiss claims of existence that do not have any evidence, and to accept claims of non-existence.

The theist/atheist scale is not balanced. It is tilted to one side, and that's why when people try to say atheists are the same as theists, they forgetting that very important fact.

It is possible to prove a positive. It is impossible to prove a negative.

However, what I am saying is that given our knowledge of physics we can not prove even that a real god exists. Our physics describes matter and the forces which interact with that matter. We know of nothing else. That's not to say that in some sense there is not anything else, just that we can not communicate with it. If we can't communicate with it we have no way of being aware of it.

 

[Cephus]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

It is possible to prove a positive. It is impossible to prove a negative.

Well, it's impossible to prove a universal negative. I can prove that there are no unicorns in my pocket with no problem.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

For me the concept of a god or gods goes deeper than anything scribbled in the Bible. Knowing if there are gods or not would require knowing what lie behind and/or before the Big Bang. And that, my friend, is truly unknowable.

Such convenient of goal posts to hide anything behind isnt it? But how did we get to that concept? Your concept is pretty much what is scribbled in the bible and many other religions use the same concept to describe their gods. Basically a magical place that no one can investigate; so therefor their gods are real because you cannot find them, ever.

But for me there is nothing that indicates that gods ever existed in any form. Sure there are writings and oral arguments based on imagination but that has no value. Its like saying I believe this. why? because the Big Bang! Hell you are halfway to being a new ager and their use of quantum mechanics. I dont understand this thing or its beyond our knowledge so who knows right? Well not you not me or anyone knows what happened at the event horizon of the Big Bang. I cant even say that we will never know about it though. Who knows what the future humans might learn. There are plenty of impossibles of the past that we turned into reality. SO saying that gods are unknowable or that before the big bang is unknowable is a bit of a stretch of faith for me.

 

[calamity]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Such convenient of goal posts to hide anything behind isnt it? But how did we get to that concept? Your concept is pretty much what is scribbled in the bible and many other religions use the same concept to describe their gods. Basically a magical place that no one can investigate; so therefor their gods are real because you cannot find them, ever.

But for me there is nothing that indicates that gods ever existed in any form. Sure there are writings and oral arguments based on imagination but that has no value. Its like saying I believe this. why? because the Big Bang! Hell you are halfway to being a new ager and their use of quantum mechanics. I dont understand this thing or its beyond our knowledge so who knows right? Well not you not me or anyone knows what happened at the event horizon of the Big Bang. I cant even say that we will never know about it though. Who knows what the future humans might learn. There are plenty of impossibles of the past that we turned into reality. SO saying that gods are unknowable or that before the big bang is unknowable is a bit of a stretch of faith for me.

Hell, there may be "gods" playing pool and drinking beer on the other side of the membrane we believe is our universe joking about the cool little ant farm in the corner. We don't know. Can't know.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Hell, there may be "gods" playing pool and drinking beer on the other side of the membrane we believe is our universe joking about the cool little ant farm in the corner. We don't know. Can't know.

My point is that what we have on hand is a universe and all that we have learned of it. Mentioning gods when talking about the universe and how it came to be is a Non sequitur. Its like saying 1+1=pudding.

On a side note: I hope that divine beer leaves no hangover. And a game among the divine would be boring. But my money is on satan because the farm is his.