lewstherin
Well-known member
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- Feb 27, 2011
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- Indianapolis, IN
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Of course not, they are zygotes, blastocysts, etc. They are human, but not yet human beings, and, absolutely, not persons.
That's somewhat subjective, however; compared with most of the world, that's accurate. However, compared to the rest of the Western world, the United States is less ideal by almost every metric. I'm certainly glad that I don't have to deal with the crushing social problems in the Palestinian territories, or Sudan, however, that doesn't mean that things can't be better, or that we should turn a blind eye to the problems that do exist. Also, none of the liberties we have in this country are fundamentally 'American', there's no reason why Palestinians, the Sudanese, etc., shouldn't, or couldn't have similarly free societies, or, even, much freer societies. Americans are not inherently better than anyone else.
'Rich' is fairly noncommittal. 'Altruistic'? Compared to what? Cuba is more 'altruistic' than the United States.
By that reasoning, no-one ever has to be accountable for anything.
It ceratainly serves a purpose. It's good that certain rights are enshrined in American law. However, it's important to note that, first, the state is incapable of creating rights, it can only choose to respect them. Second, rights weren't just handed down to us on a magical piece of paper. Many Americans fought and bled for them. Freedom of speech, for example, while included in the Bill of Rights, didn't exist until 1969. It's also a constant struggle to preserve and protect these rights, which are constantly under assault. The PATRIOT Act, for example, is an assault on civil rights. finally, one should never have to be greatful for not being denied basic human rights, the definition of a basic human right is the bare minimum which every human being should be accorded by virtue of the fact they are alive.
Also, again, nation-states are fundamentally illegitimate institutions, therefore, they should not exist.
I don't see that supporting freedom simply in words is especially meaningful. Any despot can make professions about high-minded concepts like justice, etc. What people do is what matters most. On that front, the United States is the most prolific perpetrator and sponsor of international terrorism. Also, there have been empirical studies showing an, overall, inverse relationship between US military aid and human rights; the most opressive regimes have consistently been the largest beneficiaries of US support.
Again, I'm proud of what I've done, what I'm responsible for, just as I'm ashamed of things that I'm responsible for. It is fundamentally irrational to take pride in the fact that I happened to have been born in the United States, I did not contribute to this in any way, whatsoever.
Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source. Only true humility is the antidote to shame. Pride is blinding, and IMO is a big contributor to the decay of our nation. The politicians have riled the emotions of many to support dead-end policies or to question loyalties.
There are many things about America that I love and I am glad I was born into such privilege. I also love the freedoms that we have versus the next country. But pride... I have no place for that in my heart.
Pride is little more than self-reward. Sometimes it is justified, but always it is delusional. If you are too busy feeling good about yourself then you are more prone to avoiding your mistakes or fatal flaws. No victory is an excuse to self-aggrandize in perpetuity - inner work is constant, whether on the individual or national levels. Self-empowerment does not come from pride, but true accomplishment through adversity, and through integrating both the light and shadow aspects of yourself.
Pride never has and never will be what makes America great - it is hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. If you become too attached to patting yourself on the back you lose scope of all the work that remains to be done. It's never over, especially in a nation that requires eternal vigilance of its freedoms to the degree America does.
Pride has made our nation lazy.
I'd be proud of a movement in general of which I was a part. I've been in small-scale situations like that in the past. My pride in it would have to do with the fact that I was directly involved in its existence and execution.
I have also been in situations where I have been merely "listened to." And I must say I don't care for it. I don't really like heirarchical thinking. I don't like being in the position myself, and I don't like people being sheepish. It's not something that I can respect. I want to know what they actually think, and if they agree, I want to know what their ideas are and I want them to help.
While I acknowledge there is such a thing as leaders and followers, I think the followers serve a very important purpose, and I don't see them executing it as much as they should. I think that purpose is to be the "double-check" of the leader's ideas. Leaders are frequently the sorts of people who are a bit unhinged, and that double-check is necessary.
I don't see leader-follower as a hierarchy. I see it as a difference of purpose, but both have a purpose. To me it's more like hypothesis-testing.
So you don't feel proud of things you aren't associated with? That's all national pride really is. Pride by association.
No. Appreciative, perhaps. But not proud. I didn't do anything to make it so. What have I got to be proud of?
...well it seems to me that you stayed in the US because you feel a certain sense of responsibility to, and therefore association with, the plight of Americans.
Why, then, would you not be proud when America does something you approve of, even if you had nothing to do with it?
oh...they are persons.
each with an individual heartbeat from the carrier. each with sometimes a different bloodtype. their individuality
is undeniable.
you don't consider them "people" because legality has implanted you with this notion they are not. nothing more. all legality.
so spare me your hypocritical nonsense on legality and morality. i'm not buying it.
I have the responsibility to because I can. The fact that I can is an accident of birth. I feel a moral obligation to try to right things I think are wrong if I am able to. I associate with the plight of people.
Because I would have nothing to be proud of. If I didn't take part, I have nothing to be proud of. Rather, I am humbled by the people who did what I either could not, or didn't have time to (we all have to pick our issues - there's too many to do them all).
But none of it has anything to do with this piece of dirt in North America. It has to do with people. Being American in and of itself doesn't mean anything.
...all this argues against is excessive pride.
So you can bring yourself to believe in something symbolic like humanity, since you obviously feel for the plight of people, but you can't bring yourself to feel proud of your country? I, for one, acknowledge that the US isn't perfect, but ultimately I like the vision of America, and believe it has done more good than harm. It is that association with American ideals written by self-proclaimed American people like the founding fathers that makes me proud. They did what I could not because they envisioned a certain kind of nation, and I envision the same kind of nation. By your own admission, you stayed because you saw potential of your country, and obviously envision something for it.
Those same people who you feel humbled by, are the ones who contributed all of the positives to the current situation of the United States. You don't look at that abstract conglomeration of ideas and feel proud to be partaking in the same kind of agitation? To be part of a long line of active Americans? Aren't you at least proud to be part of the political process, whatever the hell it is that you happen to do? That, in NO way, translates to pride for America? I don't understand that. I really don't. It seems to me like you're consciously refusing to be proud, because to you, that means something horrible and Nazi-esque.
My stances here are pretty consistent. I am not proud of America. Nor am I "proud" of humanity. I identify with people, and I happen to be an American, which means I can help better the reality for American people. None of this involves, nor necessitates, any sort of pride. Again, I didn't do anything. I was simply born. So what? I happen to be a human and an American, thus I have a unique ability to affect change in those demographics.
You're confusing your terms here. Pride does not apply to any of this. I am appreciative of my rights, to whatever extent they still exist. But pride would imply I had some part in making them so. I didn't. I was just born here. It would be this way whether I was ever born or not. Why should I feel proud of it?
I take momentary pride in things I actually do and take part in. You saying I think it's "nazi-eque" to feel pride is insane. I explicitly said what situations I would take pride in. I appreciate the things others do and take part in. There is a difference.
And as to the source of my shame, my shame comes from acts I believe are shameful with often happen in spite of my influence. And my influence, and failure, entitles me to shame. Just as my influence and success would entitle me to pride.
If I don't influence it, to be prideful is stupid and a pat on the back for something I didn't do. It's delusional and arrogant. :shrug:
Do you honestly believe that, when the average American says "I am proud of the United States," they are
- Taking credit for something?
- Asserting the complete and intractable superiority of the United States over other nations?
All they do is take all of those people and events you are humbled by, and create a tradition out of them, subsequently taking pride in that tradition. To me, national pride is semantically different from personal pride.
Pride can also be defined as a reasonable or justifiable self-respect. Therefore national pride can be a reasonable or justifiable respect for your nation. So, by that definition, would you say you feel national pride?
Pride can also be defined as a reasonable or justifiable self-respect. Therefore national pride can be a reasonable or justifiable respect for your nation. So, by that definition, would you say you feel national pride?
2. - Absolutely. Most Americans do believe America is superior, and the "best country on earth." And they are factually wrong by nearly every single metric there is.
First, I think you're extrapolating that definition too far. The original definition, which revolves around self-respect, is exactly why I don't have national pride. There is no aspect of "myself" that has anything to do with the existence of American. And I think extrapolating that onto the nation is a huge leap that is well outside the parameters of that defintion.
But, accepting is for the sake of argument, still not really. To me, this implies a respect of law - and frankly I respect common sense more than I respect law, no matter where I am. I just don't pay much attention to rule of law if I think it is unjust. My standards remain consistent no matter what country I am talking about. Realistic adjustments of expectation may apply depending on the real situation of a given country, but that's it. And I don't think America is special in any way. It has certain aspects in which it is somewhat unique, but so does every other country. Every human is different too, and yet that doesn't make one inherently more important or better than another.
And I don't think America is special in any way. It has certain aspects in which it is somewhat unique, but so does every other country. Every human is different too, and yet that doesn't make one inherently more important or better than another.
Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association
pride: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
What does being inherently better have to do with being proud of the United States?
I feel American, because I speak English and because I am part of a rich history of asylum seekers looking for freedom and a better quality of life...one which America has provided to me. I am both thankful for that, and proud to live in a country that can look back on a history of accomplishment.
I don't understand why you aren't.
I can only attribute it to unwarranted pessimism and reading from the Chomskian script.
Yeah, because socialist dictatorships are so altruistic.
Stupidity.
I can hold a country accountable for things, yet acknowledge that most countries do those things.
I know this is hard for you to believe, since you seem a little self-centered and don't like things that don't have to "do with you,"
but you are not born with rights. Doesn't mean they aren't worth defending or whatever, but rights are created because they are written down and because people have reasoned that it's better to accept the abstract value of those rights. The rights themselves exist because of human imagination. No God and no idealized version of a natural state can truly change that.
Then don't vote in one, or pay taxes in one, or live in one. It's easier than you think. Take some classes in wilderness survival and and go live off the grid. People do it. Why live by the rules of a fundamentally illegitimate institution?You have the option not to, and honestly it's pretty easy. Convince others to do the same. Maybe that'll take you farther than posting about it on the internet. By all means, go.
This paragraph is laughable and doesn't merit a true response.
I know that everybody here has their differences and that we rarely all agree on something, but as it is, do you think that America is a wonderful country and are you proud to be an American?
I, for what it's worth, am proud to be an American.
It has faults and flaws and there are some things I would change. However this is a nation where even the poor typically have a home, enough food, a TV, and maybe a car or computer. It is a nation where the potential to prosper through education and hard work is greater than almost any other nation on earth.
We are powerful but largely benevolent.
Hundreds of millions live in (reasonably) free and democratic states because tens of thousands of US servicemen gave their lives... and we rarely ask for anything more than a small plot of land to bury our dead, and maybe an airbase or two to help keep the neighborhood bullies at bay. The very people we've spend 50 years protecting often sneer at us... but we keep protecting them anyway.
Utterly uncalled for. There is no comparison.
We are not gassing millions of undesirables in death camps.
We are not attempting to conquer the world. At this very moment we're busy trying to give BACK the two countries we most recently liberated from tyranny.
We are not trying to advance the concept that we're the "master race" or the natural overlords of the thousand-year Reich.
You cannot compare the Reich with the USA with any intellectual honesty. To even do so is to classify yourself with the other irrational America-haters who have about as much factual basis for their hate as Westboro Church does for ITS hate.
In terms of poverty, illiteracy, infant mortality, and healthcare, to name a few, the United States ranks consustently about dead last in the industrialized world.
I think the Indonesians, East Timorese, Chileans, El Salvadorans, Nicraguans, Iranians, Panamanians, Guatemalans, etc., etc., would have a different picture of US 'benevolence.' No offense, but this is a little ridiculous.
What states are you talking about? I can only assume you're talking about the defeat of the Axis powers in WWII. (???)
Again, millions also lived, and live under brutal despotism, grinding poverty, etc., because of US intervention, or agresssion, I would assert that the latter number is far greater, of course, I'm not entirely sure what you're counting.
CC said:The definition of pride that most applies here:
Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or associationpride: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
Now, assess whether you are proud to be an American.
The definition of pride that most applies here:
Now, assess whether you are proud to be an American.
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