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Are you happy that your mother decided NOT to Abort YOU !! [W:197, 1025]

Why are you so obsessed with me, is it because you saw my pics?

What pics? No obsession...but since you keep bringing up a claim that seems utterly ridiculous (sometimes) and then make rude and/or unfounded responses, you'll have to expect to get called out on it.

Your hyper dramatic post called for it. Certainly not the conclusion of an 'intellectual'.
 
What pics? No obsession...but since you keep bringing up a claim that seems utterly ridiculous (sometimes) and then make rude and/or unfounded responses, you'll have to expect to get called out on it.

Your hyper dramatic post called for it. Certainly not the conclusion of an 'intellectual'.

I think he imagines you think he's hot:
ecofarm-albums-pics-picture67124886-27mar12.webp

Maybe he wants to "test" his abortion theories with you.
 
You are partly right, that I asked a leading question. But you are wrong on every other point.

You see, I asked the question already knowing the answer. The answer is Yes of course. And I really didn't need to ask it. Because although I was looking for a "Yes" answer so I could finger point (which I didn't get, and I couldn't do), I got something just as good. I got most of you (except for 1 or 2) to dodge the question with all manner of excuses. Just like this one which you helpfully provided.

That means that you all know that the obvious answer to my question is yes. It certainly isn't NO because everyone is basically happy to be alive. That means that they supported my position for only as long as it took to prevent them from being aborted, and then the world could do what it wanted. which is hypocritical.

Thank yuo.

99%

That is your opinion, but thanks for at least being honest about it being a leading question and thus not really an honest question whatsoever.

You mean we were not playing your games? And you got nothing, I asked the question to my mother, and she had the only honest answer to that question that IMHO is the only honest answer that your question deserves; "what a horrible and disgusting question, what kind of person dares to ask questions like that.

That some people actually played your disgusting little game says nothing, especially not about the subject of abortion. Yes, people like being alive, but liking being a alive does not mean they agree with that this also means that their position then also means they cannot possibly justify supporting abortion, and that is where you are wrong. Liking being alive and abortion has nothing to do with each other.

And yes, you are 99% wrong.
 
Now, that's really interesting, because we have had laws against cruelty to animals which were made and have been respected by lots of people who were/are not veggies and vegans.
The user I quoted defined caring as not eating meat, we butcher and eat meat which according to some standards, like the user aforementioned, is inconsiderate. In addition to that, there is an extra point which is that animals eat other animals, which would be difficult to place in the user's scale of "embryonic killing" evil capacity to say the least.
 
I think he imagines you think he's hot:
View attachment 67166785

Maybe he wants to "test" his abortion theories with you.

Is that Eco? I imagined him much older....his views tend to be fairly rigid, but then again I'm older and I'm all over the board!

Where are people's pics posted on the forum? I dont go to any of the 'personal' areas, or is that his profile? I dont look at those either.
 
True, if this were a philosophical question but it's not. If I were to ask 100 people in the street, I would probably get 100 yes's.

Unless one of them was you, then I would have 99.

Simple question, simple answer. You see?

No. What I see is that overly simple, unphilosophical people will ask simple questions and give simple answers. But the Constitution was not written for simple people. It was written for people who had philosophies and were capable of thinking philosophically. It was written to protect the rights of both the simple and the complicated, but not the incomplete.
 
So now what you're trying to tell me that just because some Orthodox Jewish rabbis don't know for sure if the fetus is a nephesh adam, or not, that God is going to suddenly smile on you and bless the contents of your heart, and hold a place for you in heaven because you destroy His creation. Is that it?

Facts are facts. God doesn't create "almost" people. He creates people. You support their destruction.

Try growing up yourself before you try and tell others to.

As far as I'm concerned, God never created any "people." God created Man in the image and likeness of God, male and female. That's all. That's the God I worship. You are free to worship some people-creating god if you want, but I don't support the destruction of any male or female instance of Man in the image and likeness of God.
 
You are partly right, that I asked a leading question. But you are wrong on every other point.

You see, I asked the question already knowing the answer. The answer is Yes of course. And I really didn't need to ask it. Because although I was looking for a "Yes" answer so I could finger point (which I didn't get, and I couldn't do), I got something just as good. I got most of you (except for 1 or 2) to dodge the question with all manner of excuses. Just like this one which you helpfully provided.

That means that you all know that the obvious answer to my question is yes. It certainly isn't NO because everyone is basically happy to be alive. That means that they supported my position for only as long as it took to prevent them from being aborted, and then the world could do what it wanted. which is hypocritical.

Thank yuo.

99%

Since at least one person seemed to give you a negative reply, and several people indicated that they could not answer yes because they would not have wanted the rights of the women pregnant with them to be violated just so that they could exist, the answer is not an obvious yes for all.

Frankly, if laws against abortion would have been necessary for me to be born, I would not be happy to have been born. I would not want to violate a woman's rights to come into the world, because I would spend my whole life feeling guilty for having ruined someone else's life and happiness. Of course, lots of people wouldn't because they are just self-centered and selfish.
 
The user I quoted defined caring as not eating meat, we butcher and eat meat which according to some standards, like the user aforementioned, is inconsiderate. In addition to that, there is an extra point which is that animals eat other animals, which would be difficult to place in the user's scale of "embryonic killing" evil capacity to say the least.

Not all animals eat other animals.

My point is simply that even if you do eat meat for survival, you do not have to be cruel to the animals while they are alive (the reason for the cruel conditions is greed for large profit, not mere survival). Since lots of people are against cruelty to animals even though they eat meat, there are various kinds of caring and consideration.

But how can one think an early pregnancy abortion by mifepristone and misoprostol is cruel, when the embryo is way, way too underdeveloped to experience any sensation or anything?
 
No. I don't.

The fact that crazed killer is happy to be alive doesn't mean anything at all. What do you think we should do? Develop a system of determining who will turn out to be a killer so that we can deal with him before he kills?

That's a good plot for a futuristic, post-apocalyptic science fiction story though.

So you once again responded to my post as though I was providing an argument in favor of keeping abortion legal. I have no idea what you meant by "no, I don't," because that wouldn't be an answer to any question I asked.

Both of my posts have had one purpose: to show that the question you posed is meaningless. Since I'm making it so clear what I'm saying, you should return the favor. What do you think it means that I'm happy to be a living, sentient being who wasn't aborted? Let's say, for the sake of argument, every single person in the world is happy they weren't aborted... so what? What do you think that means?
 
That is your opinion, but thanks for at least being honest about it being a leading question and thus not really an honest question whatsoever.

You mean we were not playing your games? And you got nothing, I asked the question to my mother, and she had the only honest answer to that question that IMHO is the only honest answer that your question deserves; "what a horrible and disgusting question, what kind of person dares to ask questions like that.

That some people actually played your disgusting little game says nothing, especially not about the subject of abortion. Yes, people like being alive, but liking being a alive does not mean they agree with that this also means that their position then also means they cannot possibly justify supporting abortion, and that is where you are wrong. Liking being alive and abortion has nothing to do with each other.

And yes, you are 99% wrong.

Thanks for your response. It's very interesting to see all of you react to my question.
 
Intending to remove something from the inside of your own body is not intent to kill a person.
When that thing that you are intending to remove is a living human being, it definitely IS killing.

If simply being a human being gives that being the right to put or keep its body parts inside another human being without that person's explicit and specific consent, then you must have the right to put your penis inside every woman's vagina without her explicit and specific consent any time you want to. But if you try it and she kills you to get your thing out of her, everybody will say it's justifiable homicide.
This is a silly argument that does not even warrant a response
 
Thanks for your response. It's very interesting to see all of you react to my question.

Heh heh, quite a different tune from "I'm winning!" And "I'm 99% right!"

I never heard why it's ok to kill the unborn to save the mother yet.
 
Since at least one person seemed to give you a negative reply, and several people indicated that they could not answer yes because they would not have wanted the rights of the women pregnant with them to be violated just so that they could exist, the answer is not an obvious yes for all.

Frankly, if laws against abortion would have been necessary for me to be born, I would not be happy to have been born. I would not want to violate a woman's rights to come into the world, because I would spend my whole life feeling guilty for having ruined someone else's life and happiness. Of course, lots of people wouldn't because they are just self-centered and selfish.

That is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard.

You say that now.

I wonder if you were to go back in time, and be given a chance to sacrifice yourself, if you really would do it. Because if you would, then you would have wasted your life for nothing. A foolish young girl (your mom) crying her eyes out for foolishly getting pregnant and you would jump up and voluntarily accept death at the hands of the abortion doctor?

That's just very nonsensical.
 
That is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard.

You say that now.

I wonder if you were to go back in time, and be given a chance to sacrifice yourself, if you really would do it. Because if you would, then you would have wasted your life for nothing. A foolish young girl (your mom) crying her eyes out for foolishly getting pregnant and you would jump up and voluntarily accept death at the hands of the abortion doctor?

That's just very nonsensical.

ROFLMAO....SHE'S being very nonsensical?

LMAO...did you read what you wrote?
 
So you once again responded to my post as though I was providing an argument in favor of keeping abortion legal. I have no idea what you meant by "no, I don't," because that wouldn't be an answer to any question I asked.

Both of my posts have had one purpose: to show that the question you posed is meaningless. Since I'm making it so clear what I'm saying, you should return the favor. What do you think it means that I'm happy to be a living, sentient being who wasn't aborted? Let's say, for the sake of argument, every single person in the world is happy they weren't aborted... so what? What do you think that means?

It would mean that they are hypocrites because they support abortion, yet thank God (if they believe in Him) that they weren't, thereby not giving a chance to every conceived person that was not as fortunate as their predecessors were.

I'm just trying to show that they are hypocrites.
 
And I showed you text that the founders did not include the unborn as having a right to life.

Roe vs Wade decided against the fetal right to life augment.



Roe v Wade - edited text

It is very clear that you have never read the roe case.

Take a look sometime at the majority decision from roe v wade. There is no decision there that gives a woman the right to kill another human being. Here is how the unborn child is spoken of in roe v wade:

Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life.



"Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term." Pp. 147-164.

For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In assessing the State's interest, recognition may be given to the less rigid claim that as long as at least potential life is involved, the State may assert interests beyond the protection of the pregnant woman alone.

The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life.

Those striking down state laws have generally scrutinized the State's interests in protecting health and potential life, and have concluded that neither interest justified broad limitations on the reasons for which a physician and his pregnant patient might decide that she should have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy

As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved.

We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a nonresident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life.

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability. [/I]

The fact is that whenever the child was mentioned by the court, it was called a potential human life. In order to justify their decision, they had to assume that it was not a human being because they knew perfectly well that to admit that the child was alive and human was to admit that it was a living human being and in the eyes of the law, all living human beings are persons and all persons in this country are entitled to the protection of the 14th amendment.

If you went to court and sued to be allowed to raise chickens on your property and the court decided that yes, indeed, you have a right to raise chickens on your property and said as much in thier decision, do you believe that gives you the right to raise ducks? You have a right to do what the court says you can do, but no particular right at all to do something that the court has not even addressed.

The court said that a woman has the right to end a "potential human life". If the court says that a woman has the right to end a "potential human life" I would have to agree. It isn't "potential human lives" however, that women are terminating when they have abortions. They are killing living human beings. If you want to justify the decision, you are going to have to show, in some real way, that unborns are only "potential human lives".
 
And there was a civil war to set the slaves free.

Shall we set unwanted embryos and unwanted pre viable fetus free ?

That is not necessary. We just have to stop women from killing innocent human beings.
 
An unborn is not considered a person under the US Constitution.
Roe v Wade rejected the fetal right to life argument.

Do ever research anything?

Roe v Wade never recognized that the fetus was a living human being at the time, they never stated that women was allowed to kill their innocent human babies. At the time Roe v Wade only saw the fetus as potential life. Today and with our advancement in science we now know in no uncertain terms that the fetus is alive, is human, and has an inalienable right to life just like you do.
 
No, I can read pretty fine and dandy, just do not agree with your points of view. You can repeat them to the cows come home but until a scientist can tell the world when a soul comes into a body, when a fetus becomes conscious and able to take in sensory data by his brain in a manner that makes comprehension or awareness at all viable then I will tell you that doctor is lying.
Do you see how many different times your argument has now changed?

First you say that a fetus is not a human being... I show you scientific PROOF... and now you immediately change your argument and say that a fetus is not conscious so therefore it cannot be a human being. Okay... so is someone who is unconscious in a coma not a human being? Yes or No?

You can repeat your quotes until the cows come home but a biologist cannot determine when a ZEF is a human being/has personhood. We can speculate about that but all a biologist can tell is scientific process in which a human life begins. I am not talking about that but as this does not fit into your doctrine/agenda, you keep trying to shift away from the real issue and that is something textbooks from a scientist cannot tell you, what is a human being/person. You can repeat all you want but your not proving that a ZEF is a human being, just that it is a stage on the biological development of human life from a biological standpoint.
You can lead a horse to water but...

I have already shown you SEVERAL scientific medical textbooks stating clearly that a human beings life begins at conception and yet you deny it. To continue to hold a false belief in the face of evidence says a lot about your honesty and intelligence level.

The beginning of human personhood is the moment in the life of a human when they are first recognized as a person. The precise timing and nature of this occurrence is not universally agreed upon, and has been a subject of discussion and debate in science, religion, and philosophy.
There is NO debate within the scientific community about when a human beings life begins. That is why every science and medical textbook says that a human beings life begins at conception. To deny it and cling on to your false belief in the face of evidence is the absolute height of foolishness.

You say that there is a debate in science about when a human beings life begins? I dare you to provide a link or reference to a science or medical textbook saying that a human beings life does NOT begin at conception.
You wont be able to because no scientist is foolish enough to suggest that the offspring of 2 human beings could EVER be anything except a human being.
 
True, if this were a philosophical question but it's not. If I were to ask 100 people in the street, I would probably get 100 yes's.

Unless one of them was you, then I would have 99.

Simple question, simple answer. You see?

Wrong. It's not the simple answer that you claim it is. See, you weren't asking a philosophical question. A philosophical question on this issue would have yielded a far better discussion, more in the line of what you were looking for. But you made an error because you tried to force an answer... and you failed doing so because your question was faulty. You were asking if an individual would have wanted his/her mother to abort him. No frame of reference for comparison. Your question, in the form in which you asked it, is nonsense.
 
Is a fetus a slave, let us look at the facts, a fetus does not have a functioning brain stem until week 8 (or so), a fetus does not have any higher brain functions until week 22 or anything close to a conscious state of being. A fetus is not born, has not birth certificate, cannot breathe on it's own, etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, but on the facts mentioned above, slaves and ZEF's have little in common. Sure, they are both made from human DNA. And of course slaves are being dragged into a discussion that really does not have anything to do with slaves or slavery.
Both ZEFs and slaves are allowed to be killed at anytime by their owners. For this discussion, they have a lot in common.

A fetus is not a slave, sorry but that does not fly. A slave might have been kept without rights but unlike a ZEF it is a human being/person with all the rights attached to that status of being. That some a-holes denied them these rights does not make them comparable to a ZEF because a ZEF is not a human being.
Yet I posted SEVERAL science and medical books clearly stating that a ZEF IS a human being and you are not able to post squat, beyond your own uneducated opinion to argue that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything other than a living human being.

That you are intellectually unable to wrap your mind around the facts does nothing at all to alter the facts. Your denial of hard science is a product of your own intellectual limitations and has no bearing at all upon what is.

And no, it is not a scientific fact that a fetus is a human being. A fetus of 22 weeks might be seen as that but, for example Goldenring, does not see a fetus as a human being until week 8 when the brain stem begins to develop. I already showed that there is at least a very important doctor that totally disagrees with your so-called fact.
Yes, it is a FACT that a human beings life begins at conception.

Refer to: STEDMAN’S CONCISE MEDICAL DICTIONARY FOR THE HEALTH PROFESSIONS , SUSAN TUCKER BLACKBURN & DONNA LEE LOPER, MATERNAL, FETAL AND NEONATAL PHYSIOLOGY: A CLINICAL PERSPECTIVE , DALE RUSSELL DUNNIHOO, M.D., PH.D., FUNDAMENTALS OF GYNECOLOGY AND OBSTETRICS, KEITH L. MOORE & T.V.N. PERSAUD, THE DEVELOPING HUMAN, LOUIS HELLMAN ET AL., WILLIAMS OBSTETRICS , T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY , E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE.

and then explain to me how important your opinion is to the reality of science. Explain how you can hold the opinion that it is not human being in the face of the actual text books that are used in medical and scientific education. Explain to me how you can hold the opinion that it is not human in the face of some of the greatest minds in the scientific community. You may as well look at a globe, or photos from space and proclaim that in your opinion, the world is still flat and rests on the back of a turtle. In the face of scientific fact, your opinion holds very little weight....and THAT is a very important distinction to make.

And yes, I will continue to argue on the pro-choice side because that is the only side that respects the rights of women and you can try to tear down every argument I bring up but you will fail because as said, this discussion is more than mere biology and maybe there are biologists who agree with you that a zygote is a human being but that not an universal opinion even under biologists. Brain biology experts could very well have a very different view than DNA biologists. Goldenring is one, Michael Gazzinga does not agree that it is a fact that a zygote is a human being.

And I am not even talking about bio-ethics and other scientific fields of whom at least some (I do not know what percentage, nor do I care) scientists do not see your claimed fact to be factual.

You might have heard it all before but so have I. And it is your opinion that any argument I put up is doomed, but this is purely down to your religious/moralistic view, it has nothing to do with factuality but with a position that has been formed by your bias towards this issue. Don't get me wrong, for the most I am just as bad as you are on that front, my views are also based on bias towards this issue, that is not an accusation towards you.

You feel strongly about your biased views but please be aware that I feel equally strong about my biased views, the only difference between you and me is that I am defending my position on this issue, you don't want to defend you issue, you want to make everybody in the US bow down to your moral views on this subject. I do not. I respect people who do not have an abortion if they accidentally get pregnant, but I also respect the woman who chooses to have an abortion because that is her choice, her body and her right to make that decision based on her moral views and not based on yours or anybody else.

A woman should NOT have the right to kill an innocent human being no matter WHAT her personal moral views are.

I do not simply declare my position to be true. I substantiated my position with no less than half a dozen medical textbooks. So far, you have substantiated your position with nothing but your own declaration, which is worthless. I have issued the challenge to several already to reference a medical textbook that suggests that the offspring of two human beings is not a living human being from its earliest moment. NONE have responded to the challenge, because there is no textbook which would suggest such foolishness. The challenge extends to you also. Do you have any fact to corroborate your position? Or are you just stating that you are right in the face of your acknowledgement that simply stating a thing is not sufficient to make it so.
 
Moderator's Warning:
OK, I've issued some infractions. I will gladly issue more if you all don't cease the personal attacks.
 
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