Are We Doomed?

[spazman56789]

I had a heated debate with my friend about the Environment. His side is that humans can survive Global warming if we work together, My side is that humans can't survive Global warming because we don't work together.
We discuss about human nature, if we are good or they are bad, and if they can change or not. We ended up asking for sources to prove who has more of burden to prove, he gave a list of his college history papers on empathy he read and I gave him a list of Social Science and Philosophy book of human evil and morality. He claim he knows more then me because he is a history major and he claim i lack understanding of history because i emphasis on the evil humans had done. I claim that I know more about human nature trough my studies and experience watching. His final conclusion is that he knows human society will grow to prevent Global warming because he has read the humans in the past change for the better good like taking away slavery and sacrifices. I believe that humans might doom our planet scenario is more likely, because we have trouble uniting together and the differences will keep causing problem for the environment, not just global warming.

though out the debate my friend swears and call me names so i put the debate here to see what you guys think of the topic and our debate? just ask if you want more details about the debate.

 

[Perotista]

I had a heated debate with my friend about the Environment. His side is that humans can survive Global warming if we work together, My side is that humans can't survive Global warming because we don't work together.
We discuss about human nature, if we are good or they are bad, and if they can change or not. We ended up asking for sources to prove who has more of burden to prove, he gave a list of his college history papers on empathy he read and I gave him a list of Social Science and Philosophy book of human evil and morality. He claim he knows more then me because he is a history major and he claim i lack understanding of history because i emphasis on the evil humans had done. I claim that I know more about human nature trough my studies and experience watching. His final conclusion is that he knows human society will grow to prevent Global warming because he has read the humans in the past change for the better good like taking away slavery and sacrifices. I believe that humans might doom our planet scenario is more likely, because we have trouble uniting together and the differences will keep causing problem for the environment, not just global warming.

though out the debate my friend swears and call me names so i put the debate here to see what you guys think of the topic and our debate? just ask if you want more details about the debate.

I wouldn't worry about it. I think we will fall into that financial abyss and probably take the global economy with us that humans will be just trying to survive and won't worry a bit about global warming. Either that or a nuclear Holocaust will happen way before the earth gets to hot for humans.

 

[lizzie]

If I believed humans were responsible, I'd say we're doomed, but could conceivably do something about it. Problem is, I don't buy into the AGW theory, so if we're doomed, it will happen regardless of our efforts.

 

[polgara]

I wouldn't worry about it. I think we will fall into that financial abyss and probably take the global economy with us that humans will be just trying to survive and won't worry a bit about global warming. Either that or a nuclear Holocaust will happen way before the earth gets to hot for humans.

Let's see, which one shall I pick? waiting...waiting.. .Do you have a door 3, Pero? :mrgreen:

 

[Goshin]

Even among those who believe global warming to be something disasterous, I think hardly anyone credible is saying we're looking at an extinction-level event.


I'm thinking you're worrying too much.

 

[spazman56789]

I wouldn't worry about it. I think we will fall into that financial abyss and probably take the global economy with us that humans will be just trying to survive and won't worry a bit about global warming. Either that or a nuclear Holocaust will happen way before the earth gets to hot for humans.

I agree, and I don't really believe in global warming. My friend believe the worst scenario is global warming and if it has a chance in existing we all should do something about it. I know there is a logic flaw in his argument but i forgot what its called.

 

[Perotista]

Let's see, which one shall I pick? waiting...waiting.. .Do you have a door 3, Pero? :mrgreen:

Not at this time Pol.

 

[polgara]

Not at this time Pol.

Uh oh, I was afraid of that! In that case, I'll go with the financial abyss, since I don't see much changing in DC!

 

[Perotista]

I agree, and I don't really believe in global warming. My friend believe the worst scenario is global warming and if it has a chance in existing we all should do something about it. I know there is a logic flaw in his argument but i forgot what its called.

I haven't decided one way or the other. I do know the earth has been a lot hotter and has been a lot colder and these things come and go in natural cycles. Mother nature is going to do what mother nature is going to do. Maybe man is giving her a push and maybe not. If mother nature has her mind made up the earth is going to warm up, nothing man can do to stop her and vice versa. I think man would be better off realizing, here in the states anyway, we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and do something that man can control if he wants to.

 

[Perotista]

Uh oh, I was afraid of that! In that case, I'll go with the financial abyss, since I don't see much changing in DC!

I don't know. Can you imagine a rich nation if we do go into that financial abyss looking like Bangladesh. I think I would rather be at ground zero and have it over with.

 

[spazman56789]

What i didn't like about my friends points is that he used a modified Pascal's wager about Environment. He said if Cons are right then were happy and if they're wrong many bad things happen, If the Pro are right then we fixed the climate and are happy and if they are wrong then they only go to financial depression. He said that the worse possible scenario is the cons are wrong and many bad things happen compare if the Pros are wrong they just have financial depression. I see some flaws in this argument can you guys help me out.

 

[Goshin]

What i didn't like about my friends points is that he used a modified Pascal's wager about Environment. He said if Cons are right then were happy and if they're wrong many bad things happen, If the Pro are right then we fixed the climate and are happy and if they are wrong then they only go to financial depression. He said that the worse possible scenario is the cons are wrong and many bad things happen compare if the Pros are wrong they just have financial depression. I see some flaws in this argument can you guys help me out.

For starters, he's assuming we can "fix" the climate.


Ah, not so much. The "climate" is beyond us. It's like altering the Sun... we lack the means to cause substantive change.

 

[KeeKee]

While mother earth does change over time it is a slow change. We are making that change happen faster.
Don't think we will do much about it. Some of mankind will survive, multitudes will not.

 

[polgara]

I don't know. Can you imagine a rich nation if we do go into that financial abyss looking like Bangladesh. I think I would rather be at ground zero and have it over with.

I don't think we would look like Bangladesh...they've always been poor, and Americans are ready to fight back! Why do you think they are trying so hard to take our guns away?

Pero, I just heard some interesting news. One Chase Plaza in New York was sold yesterday for $750 million dollars to Fosun, a Chinese asset managment firm. I wonder if that means anything important. I remember when Japan was buying major US assets a few years ago, and how concerned everyone was....

 

[flogger]

While mother earth does change over time it is a slow change. We are making that change happen faster.
Don't think we will do much about it. Some of mankind will survive, multitudes will not.

This is nonsense of course. Change like we see today has happened literally dozens of times since the last glaciation. Worrying about it is utterly pointless. We'll adapt just like we always have

Ice Cores

 

[polgara]

I haven't decided one way or the other. I do know the earth has been a lot hotter and has been a lot colder and these things come and go in natural cycles. Mother nature is going to do what mother nature is going to do. Maybe man is giving her a push and maybe not. If mother nature has her mind made up the earth is going to warm up, nothing man can do to stop her and vice versa. I think man would be better off realizing, here in the states anyway, we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and do something that man can control if he wants to.

$17 trillion dollars are a cold hard fact that shouldn't be ignored...but they choose to ignore it! It's easier to argue about theories, especially when there is lots of money to be made by a few worldwide, IMO.

 

[spazman56789]

here is the video my friend watch.
The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See - YouTube

 

[TOJ]

While mother earth does change over time it is a slow change. We are making that change happen faster.
Don't think we will do much about it. Some of mankind will survive, multitudes will not.

Herd needs to be thinned anyway so what's the problem. :shrug:

.

 

[Goshin]

here is the video my friend watch.
The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See - YouTube

Meh. Assumptions and speculation.

 

[lizzie]

here is the video my friend watch.
The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See - YouTube

Anytime someone uses the words "most terrifying" to get your attention, odds are that there is an underlying agenda at stake, and I avoid them like the plague. Trying to inspire fear is one of the most underhanded, and most manipulative moves committed by mankind. If you are going to believe something, believe it on its actual merits, and not on the emotions it evokes in you.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Herd needs to be thinned anyway so what's the problem. :shrug:

.

This is the REAL motivation behind the environmental movement that you come across Everytime you scratch the surface of any of these environ-fascists.

It's about creating a system of depopulation... A better word being genocidal.

______________

Anyway, back to the op... If we ARE doomed, it's going to be about real catastrophes like the BP spill in the gulf of Mexico (which fractured out of te main pipe and is STILL leaking in the gulf, don't worry thousands of barrels of horribly toxic dispersants are being spread to conceal it under the rug), or Fukushima, which is STILL on the verge of a larger meltdown so long as they can keep the water flowing to keep everything cold.

Co2... Nah, my exhalation won't cause much harm...

 

[spazman56789]

Anytime someone uses the words "most terrifying" to get your attention, odds are that there is an underlying agenda at stake, and I avoid them like the plague. Trying to inspire fear is one of the most underhanded, and most manipulative moves committed by mankind. If you are going to believe something, believe it on its actual merits, and not on the emotions it evokes in you.

funny that my friend uses burst of anger and frustration while i try to calm him down, he started calling me names like weasel because he thinks i am trying to avoid the debate.

 

[Perotista]

I don't think we would look like Bangladesh...they've always been poor, and Americans are ready to fight back! Why do you think they are trying so hard to take our guns away?

Pero, I just heard some interesting news. One Chase Plaza in New York was sold yesterday for $750 million dollars to Fosun, a Chinese asset managment firm. I wonder if that means anything important. I remember when Japan was buying major US assets a few years ago, and how concerned everyone was....

It means we as a country will take any money from anyplace, anytime and have no worries doing it. Even if it is from red China which while not an enemy, is certainly no friend or ally as Japan was. Times change when Red China is now the nation that holds the most U.S. debt and we are trying to convince them to buy more.

 

[Perotista]

$17 trillion dollars are a cold hard fact that shouldn't be ignored...but they choose to ignore it! It's easier to argue about theories, especially when there is lots of money to be made by a few worldwide, IMO.

It can be masked over with interest rates at 2% or less on our treasury bonds. But what is not talked about is what happens when interests rate rise to normal levels. Even at today's low interest on the debt, the interest still amounts to around 420 billion give or take. The 2nd largest outlay or item in our budget next to defense. It is said in about 2 years the interest on the debt will become number one. Defense spending is shrinking, interest is rising. Now think, our total revenue is around 2.7 trillion or a bit more. That makes the interest 15.5% of the budget. What happens if the interests rate return to normal, around 6% is normal. The interest would be over a trillion dollars making the interest payment around 40% of our total revenues.

But no one wants to talk about this.

 

[polgara]

It can be masked over with interest rates at 2% or less on our treasury bonds. But what is not talked about is what happens when interests rate rise to normal levels. Even at today's low interest on the debt, the interest still amounts to around 420 billion give or take. The 2nd largest outlay or item in our budget next to defense. It is said in about 2 years the interest on the debt will become number one. Defense spending is shrinking, interest is rising. Now think, our total revenue is around 2.7 trillion or a bit more. That makes the interest 15.5% of the budget. What happens if the interests rate return to normal, around 6% is normal. The interest would be over a trillion dollars making the interest payment around 40% of our total revenues.

But no one wants to talk about this.

I have to think that they are aware, but they don't know how to tackle the problem. Cutting spending would be a start, but they won't do that at the risk of upsetting an applecart they filled with people dependent on them for continuing help. Raising taxes on people who are barely making ends meet now isn't the answer either. If they succeed in making a 29-hour workweek, that will further strain those already near the edge. Where is Biblical Soloman's wisdom when it's needed?