Are we about to have an "Atlas Shrugged" moment?

[EMNofSeattle]

Social Security is a socialist program. Says so right in the name.
LOL

No, it’s not. And no, social is not the same as socialism. Talk about being proud of ignorance.

 

[Loulit01]

No, it’s not. And no, social is not the same as socialism. Talk about being proud of ignorance.

Ouch! You spanked me good that time.
LOL

 

[snakestretcher]

In that lengthy and often prescient novel, set in a near future dystopian semi-socialist America, many capitalists decide to abandon their enterprises leaving the government to scavenge the corpses of their companies instead bleeding off their profits for their own use.

Famine and civil war ensue.

Now we have a similar opting out, not by capitalists but by professionals not willing to comply with vaccine requirements. Right now nurses and likely airline pilots, but more to follow as the mandates grow.

It will be hard to measure the effect of these walkouts, especially if they are not reported as such. But we will see a reduction in availability and quality of professional services.

Combine that with possible government "shutdowns" and i say if you're not a prepper what are you waiting for?

The jobs left vacant by those idiots are rapidly filled by others who aren't dumb enough to commit employment suicide over something as trivial as getting vaccinated, so I don't see the point of your post at all.

 

[snakestretcher]

I don't know about Atlas shriggs but of enough people opt out of working it will create a profound change in our labor market.

Fortunately there aren't that many idiots, and those vacancies are rapidly being refilled by folk who deserve a job. The anti-vaxxers obviously don't need a job that badly, so I see no problem in their making themselves voluntarily redundant.

 

[seymourflops]

Exactly, when jobs are on the line , it has been noted about 90 percent ( or more ) of employees get the vaccination.

97% of United Airlines employees are now vaccinated

With just five days until United Airlines will start putting unvaccinated US employees on leave, the company says 97% of workers have complied with its mandate.

www.cnn.com

400 Henry Ford Health employees quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate; 92% fully vaccinated

Henry Ford is one of a dozen Michigan health systems surveyed about COVID-19 vaccination rates among staff. Some were more transparent than others.

www.freep.com

Then why all the wailing?

As soon as Biden tells OSHA to get off the pot and publish his mandate, problem solved, right?

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I value your opinion, highly.

I appreciate that.

Ayn Rand has many, many flaws. She was a homewrecker and made her heroic female protaganist a homewrecker as an act of self-justification. She did not understand the value of voluntary altruism to the altruistic one. Her characters are one dimensional and highly unrealistic. Her understanding of businessmen and their love for the free market is pure romantic fantasy.

I share many of the same criticisms.

But she was prescient in some of that novel.

Maybe. I'm sure you could draw some parallels between what's happening today and in her book. I just disagree with her broader political narrative which I also felt was shoehorned into her books even when it didn't make much sense from a literary perspective.

What's happening now with nurses, pilots, police, soon to be military, etc. is that (some of them) are willing to quit their professions over this vaccine mandate.

I just haven't seen any data to suggest this is an existential problem. Sure, some small fraction will quit. But even among that faction it doesn't seem to be the case that it is the best and brightest minds walking out. This seems like pure speculation to me.

 

[seymourflops]

I just haven't seen any data to suggest this is an existential problem. Sure, some small fraction will quit. But even among that faction it doesn't seem to be the case that it is the best and brightest minds walking out. This seems like pure speculation to me.

I'm not sure how you're measuring to know who is the best and brightest.

No it won't be existential. It's not even organized. It's just individuals doing what little they can.

An SWA pilot can't do anything about the government raising taxes on his employer while also driving up the price of fuel which leaves less money for him to get a pay raise. They can't change the Gov's plan to print billions of dollars which will take a bite out of his salary in the form of inflation.

Refusing this absurd and unneeded vaccine mandate is a action an individual can take. It won't change anything but one thing will stay the same: they can look in the mirror and see a free man, not a slave.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I'm not sure how you're measuring to know who is the best and brightest.

I'm not. That's kind of my point. Your post implied what is happening is similar to an Atlas Shrugged moment of the best and brightest simply quitting. I'm saying that seems speculative and that we don't really have any data to suggest that is what is happening.

Refusing this absurd and unneeded vaccine mandate is a action an individual can take. It won't change anything but one thing will stay the same: they can look in the mirror and see a free man, not a slave.

Refusing to do something just because someone said so is as simple minded as doing it just because you were told to. Especially since the vaccine seems to be the most effective way we have of fighting COVID.

 

[Slartibartfast]

In a way, we might be having one, but with people who don't want to work shit jobs.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Blah blah blah blah.

The safety of the vaccine is irrelevant. The political act of mandating it is morally wrong and a violation of the political values of this country. No individual persons life is worth more then said values

We've been mandating inoculations and vaccinations since the revolutionary war so, no, I don't agree that a vaccine mandate is a violation of the political values of our country. It's been a political value of ours since the very beginning.

Also, "have you heard the old adage the right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose?"

Why do Republicans and Trump supporters think they have the right to infect other people? The act of refusing to get vaccinated puts your friends, your family, and your community at greater risk of infection, hospitalization, brain and lung damage, and death. Why are their rights less important than the rights of Republicans and Trump supporters to not get vaccinated?

And let’s be honest anyway, the way you people talk about people who don’t want to take the vaccine, or your political rivals generally, you would happily man the gulags for them.

No, I wouldn't. I am not a sociopath like most anti-vaxxers. I view them as fellow citizens. I am very angry at them, but I want them to live. I am not like your typical Trump supporter. I don't want to divide up the country or engage in a civil war. I want Republicans and Trump supporters to participate in our system, but this will require them to stop being stupid and to begin participating in our democracy again instead of trying to destroy it.

Part of the reason why I want Trump supporters and Republicans to get vaccinated is that I don't want them to die.

 

[upsideguy]

But we know capitalism can work without government, because we observe that markets work even with government actively trying to destroy them. Consider the market for sex. It's illegal just about everywhere, yet it's not very difficult for a buyer to get anything he wants. It's unlicensed, unregulated, and untaxed, yet it works.


This is called the middle ground fallacy. The middle point is the best because it's the middle.




Based on whose values? Certainly not mine.

No evidence of the bolded statement whatsoever. Do you have some? I would love to read it.

There is no such thing as pure capitalism... and, its purest form leads to monopolies and exploitation of the masses. You realize the game Monopoly was contrived as an illustration of the ills of unregulated capitalism?

Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism

Monopoly's inventor, Elizabeth Magie, would have sent herself straight to jail if she’d lived to see just how influential today’s twisted version of her game turned out to be.

www.bbc.com

America, which has a mixed economy (socialism mixed capitalism), is also one of the purest of all capitalist societies, yet our economy really does not work. Similar to the game of Monopoly, the results of our economic resume are one the greatest wealth disparities in the world (we rank just ahead of Haiti). Wealth disparity ultimately creates weakness in the social fabric, which is IMHO, is currently being manifested itself in the popularity of Trump.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2013/09/the-problem-with-wealth-inequality/

Why income inequality is bad for growth

The World Economic Forum is an independent international organization committed to improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. Incorporated as a not-for-profit foundation in 1971, and...

www.weforum.org

http://www.iop.harvard.edu/political-issue-wealth-gap

No, socialism is evil and so no blend of socialism is ever acceptable. You’re so ignorant of the topic though, or dishonest that you promote the idea socialism and “capitalism” (whatever that means) can be “blended”

I think you are talking to the guy in the mirror as it you that clearly is devoid of understanding. You are letting your emotions run wild and walk allover whatever little bit of logic or understanding on this subject that you possess. Its clear you don't like the term socialism; its also clear you have no idea what it is. Somehow you have assigned a good/bad quality to something that you don't even grasp. Sad.

Every economy has elements of socialism and capitalism. There is no purity of either. It like a shower that has a mixture of hot and cold water.

“Socialism” vs. “capitalism” is a false dichotomy

We need go-go capitalism to afford a generous welfare state, and people won’t support go-go capitalism without a safety net. “Socialists” and Republicans forget different parts of this lesson.

www.vox.com

In Their Own Words: Behind Americans’ Views of ‘Socialism’ and ‘Capitalism’

For many, “socialism” is a word that evokes a weakened work ethic, stifled innovation and excessive reliance on the government. For others, it represents a fairer, more generous society.

www.pewresearch.org

Capitalism vs. Socialism is the Wrong Way to Frame Today's Economic Debate | George W. Bush Presidential Center

www.bushcenter.org

Like a good recipe, the formula is tweaked to taste. But, the economies the produce the best for their citizens (Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Finland) tend to have a couple of additional tablespoons of socialism in the mix over the US, which produces for some of its citizens, but not the average citizen.

Happiest Countries in the World 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[seymourflops]

"Why do COVIDiots think they have a right to infect other people?"

No one thinks they have such a right. I just don't think others have a right to demand an open'-ended ever-changing protocol of unreasonable precautions to unsuccessfully attempt to ensure that it never happens.

I stay home when I'm sick, I cover my mouth and turn my head when I cough, and I don't get in people's faces.

I have no moral obligation to quarantine when I'm healthy, cover my face with useless cloth or get vaccines on your schedule

A stranger can see at a glance that I'm maskless and I don't wear my vaccine record on a lanyard.

If that makes you uncomfortabe, please avoid me.

 

[bomberfox]

The socialists are responsible for Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare, free public schools, and on and on. You would be far from fine without the socialists.

Not sure about public schools but social security was borrowed from Bismark (a right winger) and smaller socialist efforts. FDR was a capitalist until the end. I think calling government programs socialist is silly.

 

[aociswundumho]

Capitalism needs the Rule of Law to work.

No, it doesn't. First of all, the rule of law is a giant crock of shit. Go ahead and define the term as you like, and I will demonstrate why it's a crock of shit.

Second, I already provided an example of a market that works without government:

But we know capitalism can work without government, because we observe that markets work even with government actively trying to destroy them. Consider the market for sex. It's illegal just about everywhere, yet it's not very difficult for a buyer to get anything he wants. It's unlicensed, unregulated, and untaxed, yet it works.

 

[seymourflops]

Not sure about public schools but social security was borrowed from Bismark (a right winger) and smaller socialist efforts. FDR was a capitalist until the end. I think calling government programs socialist is silly.

You are aware of how Bismark explained the importance of government provided payments?

In his own speech to the Reichstag during the 1881 debates, Bismarck would reply: "Call it socialism or whatever you like. It is the same to me."

Social Security History

The political climate of the era was a result of German unification, the period stretching across the 19th century and culminating in 1871, when 26 small states, principalities, duchies and territories formed the German Empire. But thanks to the German constitution, Bismarck didn’t have to worry about pleasing the populace; his chancellorship was approved solely by Wilhelm I. But with the European economy in free fall, a nearly successful assassination attempt on the kaiser, and a short-lived but bloody socialist uprising in France, Bismarck was determined to undermine a party that he saw as a danger to the volatile new nation state. So the Iron Chancellor came up with a masterful plan: beat the socialists at their own game by offering health insurance to the working class.

“That was a calculation,” says historian Jonathan Steinberg, the author of Bismarck: A Life. “It had nothing to do with social welfare. He just wanted some kind of bribery to get social democratic voters to abandon their party.”

Bismarck Tried to End Socialism’s Grip—By Offering Government Healthcare

The 1883 law was the first of its kind to institute mandatory, government-monitored health insurance

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[W_Heisenberg]

No, it doesn't. First of all, the rule of law is a giant crock of shit.

You've obviously never had a contract dispute with someone, or have had someone try to steal from your business.

Go ahead and define the term as you like, and I will demonstrate why it's a crock of shit.

We can define the terms together so there is no dispute.

Second, I already provided an example of a market that works without government:

You've obviously never seen what happens when a hooker has a contract dispute with her pimp.

What you are describing is a black market with hellish conditions for the worker, and less than optimal conditions for the customer, that exists in spite of government.

Hookers have a miserable work experience. Hookers steal shit all the time from customers. There is a higher risk of STDs for both the prostitute and the customer.

Yet, look at how things are improved when you have environment where it's brought out on the open and done in accordance with the legal system. I think there are some great examples in Europe, for instance, of how the situation is improved for everyone when it is done under the constraints of a legal system.

Or, is it your preference for a sex worker to have no rights whatsoever?

 

[aociswundumho]

You've obviously never had a contract dispute with someone, or have had someone try to steal from your business.

I've been a victim of theft several times, and in both instances the cops did absolutely nothing for me.

We can define the terms together so there is no dispute.

You brought it up, you define it.

What you are describing is a black market with hellish conditions for the worker, and less than optimal conditions for the customer, that exists in spite of government.

Hookers have a miserable work experience. Hookers steal shit all the time from customers. There is a higher risk of STDs for both the prostitute and the customer.

Yet, look at how things are improved when you have environment where it's brought out on the open and done in accordance with the legal system.

Umm, it's the stupid ass government which outlawed it thus causing the problems.

You're claiming government is necessary for markets to work, then pointing out problems caused by government.

 

[seymourflops]

I've been a victim of theft several times, and in both instances the cops did absolutely nothing for me.


You brought it up, you define it.



Umm, it's the stupid ass government which outlawed it thus causing the problems.

You're claiming government is necessary for markets to work, then pointing out problems caused by government.

Honestly, all I've ever needed a cop for was when I had an accident or one time someone vandalized my car and I needed a police report for the insurance to pay. One time I was doing a welfare check on a relative and found them dead. I called the cops only to avoid any appearance of foul play on my part.

If someone thinks cops are going to help when someone steals from their business, they must mean an off-duty officer that they hired as security. Someone does a smash and grab robbery at a pawn or jewelry shop and the police will show up a few hours later to give you an incident number for the insurance company.

 

[HangLow]

No evidence of the bolded statement whatsoever. Do you have some? I would love to read it.

There is no such thing as pure capitalism... and, its purest form leads to monopolies and exploitation of the masses. You realize the game Monopoly was contrived as an illustration of the ills of unregulated capitalism?

Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism

Monopoly's inventor, Elizabeth Magie, would have sent herself straight to jail if she’d lived to see just how influential today’s twisted version of her game turned out to be.

www.bbc.com

America, which has a mixed economy (socialism mixed capitalism), is also one of the purest of all capitalist societies, yet our economy really does not work. Similar to the game of Monopoly, the results of our economic resume are one the greatest wealth disparities in the world (we rank just ahead of Haiti). Wealth disparity ultimately creates weakness in the social fabric, which is IMHO, is currently being manifested itself in the popularity of Trump.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2013/09/the-problem-with-wealth-inequality/

Why income inequality is bad for growth

The World Economic Forum is an independent international organization committed to improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. Incorporated as a not-for-profit foundation in 1971, and...

www.weforum.org

http://www.iop.harvard.edu/political-issue-wealth-gap



I think you are talking to the guy in the mirror as it you that clearly is devoid of understanding. You are letting your emotions run wild and walk allover whatever little bit of logic or understanding on this subject that you possess. Its clear you don't like the term socialism; its also clear you have no idea what it is. Somehow you have assigned a good/bad quality to something that you don't even grasp. Sad.

Every economy has elements of socialism and capitalism. There is no purity of either. It like a shower that has a mixture of hot and cold water.

“Socialism” vs. “capitalism” is a false dichotomy

We need go-go capitalism to afford a generous welfare state, and people won’t support go-go capitalism without a safety net. “Socialists” and Republicans forget different parts of this lesson.

www.vox.com

In Their Own Words: Behind Americans’ Views of ‘Socialism’ and ‘Capitalism’

For many, “socialism” is a word that evokes a weakened work ethic, stifled innovation and excessive reliance on the government. For others, it represents a fairer, more generous society.

www.pewresearch.org

Capitalism vs. Socialism is the Wrong Way to Frame Today's Economic Debate | George W. Bush Presidential Center

www.bushcenter.org

Like a good recipe, the formula is tweaked to taste. But, the economies the produce the best for their citizens (Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Finland) tend to have a couple of additional tablespoons of socialism in the mix over the US, which produces for some of its citizens, but not the average citizen.

Happiest Countries in the World 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[Hamish Howl]

In that lengthy and often prescient novel, set in a near future dystopian semi-socialist America, many capitalists decide to abandon their enterprises leaving the government to scavenge the corpses of their companies instead bleeding off their profits for their own use.

Famine and civil war ensue.

Now we have a similar opting out, not by capitalists but by professionals not willing to comply with vaccine requirements. Right now nurses and likely airline pilots, but more to follow as the mandates grow.

It will be hard to measure the effect of these walkouts, especially if they are not reported as such. But we will see a reduction in availability and quality of professional services.

Combine that with possible government "shutdowns" and i say if you're not a prepper what are you waiting for?

Of COURSE you're an Ayn Rand fan.

 

[bearpoker]

You'll be paying more the the less qualified pilot that the pilot who quit was hired over.

Enjoy!

OTOH the "more qualified" pilot won't be mistakenly spreading Covid far and wide across the country to crew, passengers and people in other destinations when he (or she, though most females aren't as stupid as demonstrated by their higher vaccination rates) overnights. Also the vaccinated pilot demonstrates superior judgement, which is always a desirable trait in an emergency.

 

[bearpoker]

I am wondering, if they are unhirable because they won't get vaccinated, if that qualifies them to collect SSI?

Stupid is not a disability.

 

[bearpoker]

You guys act like a vaccine mandate is a crime against humanity. It’s so silly. The vaccine is safe, free, and effective. It takes no more than 30 mins to get vaccinated in most places. Yes, it’s a bit of a pain in the ass, but it will save lives. It’s not a “big ask.” But you guys act like we are sending people to a gulag or killing them in a gas chamber. Getting vaccinated isn’t a big deal. People should just do it, get over it, and move on with their lives. We’ve had forced inoculations and vaccinations since the revolutionary war. This isn’t new. What’s new is that Trump supporters and Republicans — out of sheer spite and due to politics — have decided they are going to make this a political issue and ruin everyone else’s day.

Republicans and Trump supporters need to grow up and act like adults.

Well, yeah! Right wingers can't function without their melodrama fix! You want them to live everyday hum drum lives, devoid of life and death defying principles??!!! HELL NO!!! We gotta have blood and guts and veins in ma teeth! We gotta stand up for freedom! Even when we're shoveling bodies into refrigerator trucks, cuz we're Americans!

 

[bearpoker]

Exactly, when jobs are on the line , it has been noted about 90 percent ( or more ) of employees get the vaccination.

97% of United Airlines employees are now vaccinated

With just five days until United Airlines will start putting unvaccinated US employees on leave, the company says 97% of workers have complied with its mandate.

www.cnn.com

400 Henry Ford Health employees quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate; 92% fully vaccinated

Henry Ford is one of a dozen Michigan health systems surveyed about COVID-19 vaccination rates among staff. Some were more transparent than others.

www.freep.com

But that's not dramatic.

 

[bearpoker]

Then why all the wailing?

As soon as Biden tells OSHA to get off the pot and publish his mandate, problem solved, right?

It's the right wing that's wailing. Ask them. The left wing is happy as clams that the mandates are working. Vaccinations are up, COVID down. Life is getting better.