Are These Memos Legitimate?

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

No matter how much of a putz Champs may or may not be, it in no way alters Team Bush's transgressions.

HEY! That's Putz with a capital P!

I like you Simon! You deal in facts, and you back it up with proof unlike the wild untruths some others out here throw out. Saddam & the WTC, that was a good one....and I loved your reference to Nessie & Yeti!

Now remember, that's Mr. Putz (with a capital P) please.....

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Is that why you just posted a totally off topic memoir of world opinion about Bush?

Like I said, disingenuous.

World opinion is relevant because due to this damn war it is much more dangerous to be an American businessman who travels outside of this country. Bush's lies, and having them exposed make it even more challenging to succeed and to survive.

Smoke screen all you like, it's a free country. Write about Kosovo all you like, no one will stop you. Make outrageous and erroneous statements and most likely someone or many someones will ask you to prove it.

I provide links all the time to prove my theories...I sure wish others would too, it would make for a more interesting debate. Debating against people who make up their facts and then can't prove it is much less invigorating than bandying back and forth with someone how actually has an argument based in fact, not fiction....

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Sure, a comparison could be relative. On screw up can't justify another though. Just because some people tolerated one screw up in no means that they must tolerate another screw up.
Being "relative" is different than justifying.
Suppose someone totally looked the other way about the Balkans solely because of partisan reasons. This in no way renders future screw up acceptable.
No matter how much of an ass Clinton was and no matter how many people looked the other way for partisan reasons it still doesn't create a free pass for Bush. It just doesn't.

It isn’t about the screw up so much as it’s about the way the Democrats are so far out there with this “anti Bush” thing they are losing a sense of reality and hurting our troops.

Claiming that Bush lied about the reasons for going to war is only helping the terrorists by giving them faith in their belief that the American people are too weak and spineless to finish what we started. The Democrats are just going too far with this and they could cause us to lose the war if they keep it up.

The war in Iraq was always about much more than just Iraq. Look at Iran and how close they are to getting nukes. Look at a map of the Middle East and tell me Iraq isn’t the place to be if you want to have the power to kick anyone in that region back into line.

After 911, we realized that we couldn’t afford to just let the Islamic fascists in the Middle East threaten us without having a viable response. Bombing the hell out of them is useful for softening up the target before the boots go in but it won’t make dictatorial regimes fear the USA unless they know we, the American people have the stomach to tolerate war when we must wage it. It won’t make them fear us unless they know they too will be pulled from a rat hole by US Marines the Way Saddam was.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Claiming that Bush lied about the reasons for going to war is only helping the terrorists...

Well, [if this were true] Team Bush should have thought about that before they engaged in their campaign of deceit. As it is, Americans have the obligation to hold our public official accountable. We're obligated as members of nation with a representative government to call bullshit when we see it.

The invasion of Iraq itself has done quite a bit more to help terrorists than calling team Bush on their deliberate misrepresentation with the intent to persuade.

The Democrats are just going too far with this and they could cause us to lose the war if they keep it up.

I see. And how much responsibility for the conduct of the war in Iraq do you think belongs to Team Bush et al?

The war in Iraq was always about much more than just Iraq.

Apparently.
I've never seen a war with so many "real reasons."

After 911, we realized that we couldn’t afford to just let the Islamic fascists in the Middle East threaten us without having a viable response.

As opposed to the threat of what Dr. Rice called "national obliteration?"

...we, the American people have the stomach to tolerate war when we must wage it.

Well, if a country were to attack the US or be a significant threat to the US we would have the stomach for it. It's just these preventive wars that are sold as pre-emptive wars that we don't have the stomach for.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
OK then how bad is finding 100,000's of them and still having 100,000's missing. Saddam was exponentially worse that Milosevic. It's not that I want peopled outraged because Clinton go it wrong, I am asking why the left was not outraged at Clinton but are spinning out of control over Bush.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I think it is quite clear. If 20,000 at most GMB warrant the actions Clinton took then surely the exponitially worse Saddam's removal was also warranted. Then add in the fact that Saddam had invaded other countries twice, used WMD, was actively supporting terroism with the rewards for suicide bombers and his secret activities with terrorist groups and the left needs to explain why it supported one but not the other.

But as far as the left being outraged regarding Clinton and Bosnia. The left, much like the right is made up of lots of different groups. All with their own agenda and philosphy. There actual were groups opposed to going to war in Bosnia. There's always going to be anti-war groups. But you're right the left, by and large, did not oppose Clinton or the Bosnian war

:spin:You know exactly who I mean and it is clear the left which so adamantly opposes Iraq supported Bosnia and the real point is that the left STILL opposes Iraq even though our military is fully engaged and would be more than happy to us fail so they could capitalize on it politically.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Excuse me! Saddam murder tens of thousands with WMD, again exponentially more than Milosevic did. Yet the left says he should have been left in place and Bush was a liar and on and on and on.

I'm not so sure the left thought he should be left alone. They just preferred wroking with the UN and the inspectors rather then going to war with a country that did not attack us.

The left most certainly did even joining in with certain European countries in wanting to lift the sanctions, certain European countries we now understand why held the position they did, they had been bribed by Saddam. And it took 240,000 troops and 3 carrier battlegroups JUST to get the inspectors in and STILL Saddam did not comply. How long were we going to keep those troops standing, ready to go to war an a moments notice just to keep inspections going? Blix had already gone back to the UN and stated that Saddam was not complying EVEN WITH THOSE TROOPS AT HIS BORDER! Geez it amazes me how people have forgotten what was actually going on. Get some reality here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Yes and at one point he had stockpiles and we still don't know what happened to them, but so what? He still had the capibility and the rabid desire to pocess them and use them. And he had a plan in the works, a plan that was almost to fruition and had not Bush stopped him would have been successful. We would now have a Saddam more empowered and in pocession of his WMD, chemical and biological for sure and probabaly nuclear.

So what? I think it's a little more then so what. Esp. when it turns out we were so wrong.

Yes SO WHAT? We were right about his using WMD, we were right about his secret labs, we were right that he had continued research (actually according to Kay we were wrong in that he was working on even more dangerous biologicals), we were right that he would have supplied such weapons to terrorist (Duelfer discovered the research into the means to do so), we were right that he was up to underhanded means to end sanctions so he could expand his WMD and he was doing so by bribing the UN and other countries who ended up being his allies.

No, what we didn't find were the WMD's. WMD's that we were told they knew for certain he had and we knew where he had them.

OK we didn't find stockpiles, but we found everything else and more which was far more dangerous than just finding stockpiles, stockpiles that are easily replaced.

No the reality is that many of those on the GOP side did not support Clinton or the troops. Which is why people on the right made statement like:

Those statements are nothing like the over the top rhetoric coming from the left. The fact remains that once troops were committed they were supported, all the way. As opposed to the left dealing with Iraq who would just as soon see us and Iraq fail.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

From where I'm sitting 16k to 20k sure seems like a big number to me.

And how does 100k to 250k sound to you. And if it was worth using military action against 16k to 20k then why not 100k to 250k?

How dimented is it if we think that because someone killed less than Saddam that it's not a crime?

Yes I guess it would be if someone thought that, how about someone thinking it less a crime to kill 100k to 250k versus 16k to 20k?

The American troops are part of a UN Peacekeeping force that was made up of NATO nations but is now almost completely EURFOR (European troops).

They are now but they weren't when Clinton went in. He went in without UN sanctions and with the approval of congress, not even a vote. Yet the left was silent. Why the outrage over Bush who had the approval of both bodies and a colition far more broadbased than NATO yet nothing about Clinton?

When's the last time an American was killed in Bosnia? How about in Iraq?

The point being what?

One more question? Bush has been President for more than 4 years now, how come he hasn't pulled our troops from there?

Out of Bosnia, because we committed to the action and once committed it was supported by both sides. The real question is why hasn't the left, once we were committed to Iraq, stopped thier propaganda campaign designed to cause the defeat of our efforts there?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

The real question is why hasn't the left, once we were committed to Iraq, stopped thier propaganda campaign designed to cause the defeat of our efforts there?

It is truly amazing that anyone would write this. Show me one sentence that was designed to defeat our efforts and lose the war?

How can you blame Liberals for losing a war that Bush started, Bush commands, that Bush has spent more than $200 billion on?

Why aren't you asking Bush why he never had a plan on what to do after the initial invasion ended? It sure seems you're misdirecting blame here.

If Bush started the war, then Bush is responsible for the war.

What does it take for someone with your beliefs to recognize the truth about Iraq?

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

How can you blame Liberals for losing a war that Bush started, Bush commands, that Bush has spent more than $200 billion on?

Why aren't you asking Bush why he never had a plan on what to do after the initial invasion ended? It sure seems you're misdirecting blame here.

Vietnam.

Do not kid yourself. There is a plan.
It appears to involve a long term stay in the region and democratic governments all around. That goes directly against Islamic interests so there will be some more problems ahead.

I just wish we would fund an alternative fuel source and get out but that is not best for us in the long term. Blah.

 

[Fantasea]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

In the grand scheme of things, up until the great liberal uprising during the Viet Nam era, wars were fought, uprisings quelled, and military events were supported by the parties uniting until they were brought to a conclusion. This was seen as the way to bring hostilities to an end in the shortest possible time, with the least possible cost in human and economic terms. Then the dissection and analysis commenced.

Since the fiscal and social policies epoused by the Democrats have caused the electorate to strip them of the control they once held, the entire election campaigning concept has changed.

What we have now is a perpetual election campaign that runs 24/7/365. Every action, decision, or thought eminating from the Republican side is immediately siezed upon and converted into a negative campaign position, action, or slogan, designed to reflect badly upon the Administration.

Even when they are forced to apologize or make a retraction, they don't care because the damage they seek to do occurs in the initial blast. Apologies and retractions have little or no effect.

Those flag wavers who champion the rights of 'war captives' generate much air time and media ink. As is most obvious, their efforts certainly give aid and comfort to those who oppose the US in exactly the same way as was done by those of that ilk during the Viet Nam era. Their prime objective is to effect public opinion and the cost in lives is no object. In fact, the greater the death toll, the greater the effect.

The singleminded goal is to recapture control of the Senate, House of Representatives, and the White House, and they will let nothing stand in their way to campaign against the Administration.

They are a disgrace.

Finish the job first. Then hand out the accolades or goat horns.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

In the grand scheme of things, up until the great liberal uprising during the Viet Nam era, wars were fought, uprisings quelled, and military events were supported by the parties uniting until they were brought to a conclusion.

Rewriting history again? Or just changing the truth? "The Great Liberal Uprising"! :rofl Do you mean when almost the entire country revolted to stop our involvement in a war that had no justification and killed more than 50,000 Americans? Do you mean the worst war of all time for the USA? Do you mean the nightmare that was Vietnam? It wasn't a Liberal uprising, it was an American uprising demanding that we get the hell out of there.

As is most obvious, their efforts certainly give aid and comfort to those who oppose the US in exactly the same way as was done by those of that ilk during the Viet Nam era. Their prime objective is to effect public opinion and the cost in lives is no object. In fact, the greater the death toll, the greater the effect.

No, the PRIME OBJECTIVE is to get us the hell out of this era's Vietnam before it duplicates the human toll.

The singleminded goal is to recapture control of the Senate, House of Representatives, and the White House, and they will let nothing stand in their way to campaign against the Administration.

They are a disgrace.

You know what is a disgrace? That any American, check that, any person would ever suggest or believe that their fellow countrymen would put politics over the lives of their citizens. The idiocy involved in actually writing or believing such drivel is numbing.

What's most interesting is that several of the war mongering Republicans on this board blame everyone for the Iraq War and it's casualties EXCEPT for the Klan that started the war! Somehow, in their incredible disconnect with the real world Bush is good, Bush is Just, Bush is right about invading Iraq BUT the Democrats are the ones responsible for the deaths in Iraq!

Fiction writers couldn't make up a story like this, no one would believe it. Why it is that some of the Republicans in this community are unable to process that Democrats oppose the war because it's an unjust war? It's so simple, yet for those who are disconnected from Earth they cannot comprehend that the majority of Americans, check that, the majority of the World do not believe in this war.

I can sort of see how some of you want to believe that the opposition is in opposition for political gain. I feel it makes you feel better to believe that than to accept that the war is unjust, and that people oppose it for moral and ethical reasons. To accept that scenario is to humanize Democrats and Liberals, and God knows that you never want to do that. It's much better for your psyche to demonize Democrats as calculating politicians who put political office ahead of human life.

Sadly, if you had any concept whatsoever on Liberalism you would be able to understand that Liberals hate almost all wars and that it is not politics that drives us, it is true and sincere beliefs.

I guess that is too deep for some of you. It's so much easier to blame us for the casualties by accusing us of not being sheep who follow their leader no matter what...that is one sick and Fuc^ked Up point of view....

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

...I can sort of see how some of you want to believe that the opposition is in opposition for political gain. I feel it makes you feel better to believe that than to accept that the war is unjust, and that people oppose it for moral and ethical reasons. To accept that scenario is to humanize Democrats and Liberals, and God knows that you never want to do that. It's much better for your psyche to demonize Democrats as calculating politicians who put political office ahead of human life...

...I guess that is too deep for some of you. It's so much easier to blame us for the casualties by accusing us of not being sheep who follow their leader no matter what...that is one sick and Fuc^ked Up point of view....

And this folks is why I am so strongly against "party politics." Guys, you've got partisan hackery coming out of your ears (both of you). The way you refer to opposing party members borders on bigotry. You sound as they your mortal enemies in an epic war. In case you've forgotten, we are meant to be working for the same things. This kind of hatred towards the other side is hurting America (in the very accurate words of John Stewart). This recent trend of attacking persons because of their politics is poisonous. There was a time when no one would have the arrogance to call the president of the United States stupid or incapable. And they certainly would not have suggested these characteristics onto someone else because they voted for that person. But that is where we are right now. Champ, you are suggesting that all conservatives think that we liberals are the cause of casualties solely because we aren't sheep-like republicans. What a sad world you must live in to make someone your enemy for choosing to support a President when you do not. You are suggesting that conservatives don't think of us as humans? How have you grown to become so pitted against half of your own country to the point that you write them off as incompetent lemmings under a tyranical ruler?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Champ, you are suggesting that all conservatives think that we liberals are the cause of casualties solely because we aren't sheep-like republicans. What a sad world you must live in to make someone your enemy for choosing to support a President when you do not. You are suggesting that conservatives don't think of us as humans? How have you grown to become so pitted against half of your own country to the point that you write them off as incompetent lemmings under a tyranical ruler?

I ask that you reread the post that I made that you are referring to? I made a point of narrowing my opinion to a select few in this community only, not Republicans in general.

I wrote:

What's most interesting is that several of the war mongering Republicans on this board blame everyone for the Iraq War and it's casualties EXCEPT for the Klan that started the war! Somehow, in their incredible disconnect with the real world Bush is good, Bush is Just, Bush is right about invading Iraq BUT the Democrats are the ones responsible for the deaths in Iraq!

To set the record straight in no way do I believe mainstream Republicans espouse the philosophy that I cite in the above quote. OK?

I've written several times recently that I do NOT judge people by only their political leanings. My friends cover the entire spectrum of politics. As a matter of fact I cannot recall ever disengaging a friendship I have due to one's politics.

 

[Fantasea]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantasea
In the grand scheme of things, up until the great liberal uprising during the Viet Nam era, wars were fought, uprisings quelled, and military events were supported by the parties uniting until they were brought to a conclusion.

Rewriting history again? Or just changing the truth? "The Great Liberal Uprising"! Do you mean when almost the entire country revolted to stop our involvement in a war that had no justification and killed more than 50,000 Americans? Do you mean the worst war of all time for the USA? Do you mean the nightmare that was Vietnam? It wasn't a Liberal uprising, it was an American uprising demanding that we get the hell out of there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantasea
As is most obvious, their efforts certainly give aid and comfort to those who oppose the US in exactly the same way as was done by those of that ilk during the Viet Nam era. Their prime objective is to effect public opinion and the cost in lives is no object. In fact, the greater the death toll, the greater the effect.

No, the PRIME OBJECTIVE is to get us the hell out of this era's Vietnam before it duplicates the human toll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantasea
The singleminded goal is to recapture control of the Senate, House of Representatives, and the White House, and they will let nothing stand in their way to campaign against the Administration.

They are a disgrace.

You know what is a disgrace? That any American, check that, any person would ever suggest or believe that their fellow countrymen would put politics over the lives of their citizens. The idiocy involved in actually writing or believing such drivel is numbing.

What's most interesting is that several of the war mongering Republicans on this board blame everyone for the Iraq War and it's casualties EXCEPT for the Klan that started the war! Somehow, in their incredible disconnect with the real world Bush is good, Bush is Just, Bush is right about invading Iraq BUT the Democrats are the ones responsible for the deaths in Iraq!

Fiction writers couldn't make up a story like this, no one would believe it. Why it is that some of the Republicans in this community are unable to process that Democrats oppose the war because it's an unjust war? It's so simple, yet for those who are disconnected from Earth they cannot comprehend that the majority of Americans, check that, the majority of the World do not believe in this war.

I can sort of see how some of you want to believe that the opposition is in opposition for political gain. I feel it makes you feel better to believe that than to accept that the war is unjust, and that people oppose it for moral and ethical reasons. To accept that scenario is to humanize Democrats and Liberals, and God knows that you never want to do that. It's much better for your psyche to demonize Democrats as calculating politicians who put political office ahead of human life.

Sadly, if you had any concept whatsoever on Liberalism you would be able to understand that Liberals hate almost all wars and that it is not politics that drives us, it is true and sincere beliefs.

I guess that is too deep for some of you. It's so much easier to blame us for the casualties by accusing us of not being sheep who follow their leader no matter what...that is one sick and Fuc^ked Up point of view....

You are aware of the writings of the Viet Namese Communist military leaders, Colonel Bui Tin and General Vo Nguyen Giap who credited the American media and the outspoken critics of the war with changing their minds about quitting after the 1968 Tet Offensive which crippled their forces.

At that point, the US KIA toll stood at about half the final figure. Who gets credit for the other half?

Today's 'protestors' are having the same effect on the terrorists. They, too, believe that the Americans can be defeated, not in the streets of Baghdad and Falugia, but in the living rooms of Americans who watch TV newscasts of what the terrorist actions. The terrorists are banking on the Rodney King Syndrome.

VIETNAM RETROSPECTIVE​

In a recent interview published in The Wall Street Journal, (circa 1991) former Colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and who received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30,1975 confirmed the American Tet 1968 military victory: "Our loses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for reelection. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to reestablish our presence but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas.

If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could havepunished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was." And on strategy: "If Johnson had granted Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.... it was the only way to bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort involving tens of thousands of soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units .... our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom .... if all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of time to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest was damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us. And the left: "Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement.

Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and would struggle along with us .... those people represented the conscience of America .... part of it's war- making capability, and we turning that power in our favor."

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I ask that you reread the post that I made that you are referring to? I made a point of narrowing my opinion to a select few in this community only, not Republicans in general.

Firstly, let me apologize for seemingly turning the scopes your way. You did say a few things that I would consider anti-republican, due to the verbage ("Why it is that some of the Republicans..." "To accept that scenario is to humanize Democrats and Liberal." "I guess that is too deep for some of you. It's so much easier to blame us..."). BUT, you are in most cases pretty good about targeting your ad hominem attacks to a sole poster (be that good or bad, you are consistant). So, really, this "sermon" is more directed to others simply using you as an example, and that was not fair and as I said before, I apologize for that. The brunt of my argument is more directed to those who intend on bringing other "party politics" matters into light in every particular subject debated. Such as feeling the need to compare Bush to Clinton, or even suporting the acts of one president and not supporting the acts of another even though they are the same acts. I guess I just focused on your comments because I'm actually on your side in this issue and I just didn't think it was necessary to result to partisan hackery to show what a mistake this war was. That having been said, there is no excuse, from anyone, to resort to name calling or belittling their opposing side in politics solely based on the fact that they are on the other side of the partisan line.

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Sadly, if you had any concept whatsoever on Liberalism you would be able to understand that Liberals hate almost all wars and that it is not politics that drives us, it is true and sincere beliefs.

I guess that is too deep for some of you. It's so much easier to blame us for the casualties by accusing us of not being sheep who follow their leader no matter what...that is one sick and Fuc^ked Up point of view....

OK so only Liberals hate war. Are we back to this again. No one wants war.
War is here today and now. Complaining about it now is only divisive when unity is a mandate.


If 4 guys are playing a basketball game and 1 guy on the team isn't with the program it hurts the end result.

You can argue and bitch all you want during halftime but right now the clock is running.

The insurgents realize there is no way they can defeat the military.
What they can do is get you to do it for them.
Politics really suck and that is a fact.

I can't even read what you post when you try to quote Krugman hes such a leftist hack disguised as a journalist.

I will honestly try to open up a little next chance I get and meet you halfway.

Laters

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

OK so only Liberals hate war. Are we back to this again. No one wants war.
War is here today and now. Complaining about it now is only divisive when unity is a mandate.


If 4 guys are playing a basketball game and 1 guy on the team isn't with the program it hurts the end result.

You can argue and bitch all you want during halftime but right now the clock is running.

The insurgents realize there is no way they can defeat the military.
What they can do is get you to do it for them.
Politics really suck and that is a fact.

I can't even read what you post when you try to quote Krugman hes such a leftist hack disguised as a journalist.

I will honestly try to open up a little next chance I get and meet you halfway.

Laters

When you've got the Sec-def saying it will take years, lots of years, to defeat the insurgents I think there's a good possible you've got that back wards.

At the start of this Team Bush told us it was going to be short and sweet. Rummy said on many occasions this wasn't going to take longer then six months. In fact he said it might take six days or even six weeks. Many members of the Admin. told us we'd be welcomed as liberators. We were told he had direct links to the 9-11 hijackers. That he had stock piles of Chemical and Biological weapons. That they knew where they were. That he was acquiring the material needed for a nuclear weapon. We were told he was a direct threat to the US. So far they've been wrong on all points.

In fact I can't think of one thing they were right about. Well they did say Saddam was a bad guy, they were right about that. I suppose they were right about the Iraqi people wanting democracy. I think the elections proved that. So I guess they were right about some things. But you have to admit the stuff they were wrong about is some pretty big stuff.

 

[ShamMol]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

OK so only Liberals hate war. Are we back to this again. No one wants war.
War is here today and now. Complaining about it now is only divisive when unity is a mandate.

Liberals seem to be the only ones to speak out against war when all the public faces of conservatism in th United States are extremely pro-war and don't use it as a last resort as it should be used. Personally, I see war as the absolute last resort and shouldn't be used at all if ever possible. With that in mind, know that I supported the war in Afghanistan.

If 4 guys are playing a basketball game and 1 guy on the team isn't with the program it hurts the end result. You can argue and bitch all you want during halftime but right now the clock is running.

So, basically, it is the third quater and we have to shut up. Not buying that. It is the place of the American public to question the actions of the government and that is exactly what we will keep doing.

The insurgents realize there is no way they can defeat the military.
What they can do is get you to do it for them.
Politics really suck and that is a fact.

So, now by disagreeing with the posistion of the administration and pointing out the folly, we are aiding and helping the enemy. Why don't you just round up all the liberal people in the US and try them for treason.

Ironically, I hate the war but recognize why we have to stay in Iraq. I feel that instead of some useless spending that we are doing right now, we could instead put that funding into training and therefore speed up our exit. Once enough are trained to control the insurgency, I want us out, right then and there.

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

At the start of this Team Bush told us it was going to be short and sweet. Rummy said on many occasions this wasn't going to take longer then six months. In fact he said it might take six days or even six weeks.

.

I think saying 6 days was a stupid idea as well. you cant move 50k troops and support equipment in and out of anywhere in 6 days and have much time to accomplish much.

The rest of the sentence was "We dont know"
Anyone that believed 6 days was deluding themselves.
I was thinking 4-6 years personally.

I think that was a bit of truth stretching. They had a pretty good idea.
The doctor always tells you "This shot won't hurt a bit" before they reveal the needle but it always hurts like hell.

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Ironically, I hate the war but recognize why we have to stay in Iraq. I feel that instead of some useless spending that we are doing right now, we could instead put that funding into training and therefore speed up our exit. Once enough are trained to control the insurgency, I want us out, right then and there.

Exactly. So does everyone else but the gun runners.
I just read a poll that says 94% of Americans believe we need to complete the job in Iraq. I agree. Lets get it over with and get out. Constant Bitching is only hurting troop morale and encouraging insurgents. Have we not learned anything from Vietnam?

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

You are aware of the writings of the Viet Namese Communist military leaders, Colonel Bui Tin and General Vo Nguyen Giap who credited the American media and the outspoken critics of the war with changing their minds about quitting after the 1968 Tet Offensive which crippled their forces.

At that point, the US KIA toll stood at about half the final figure. Who gets credit for the other half?

Irony. The war protesters effectively killed nearly as many of our soldiers with words rather than the munitions of the enemy.

You get a chance to protest at the elections every 4 years. Show some restraint and patience people and make sure you vote.

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Liberals seem to be the only ones to speak out against war when all the public faces of conservatism in th United States are extremely pro-war and don't use it as a last resort as it should be used.

I never even heard of anyone that was pro-war except perhaps munitions manufacturers and they would be foolish to say that in public.

 

[ShamMol]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Exactly. So does everyone else but the gun runners.
I just read a poll that says 94% of Americans believe we need to complete the job in Iraq. I agree. Lets get it over with and get out. Constant Bitching is only hurting troop morale and encouraging insurgents. Have we not learned anything from Vietnam?

That war was going bad before the American public got on its case. Don't try and compare this to that except in the fact that US troops are in a foreign land fighting a war. There is no comparison otherwise. Acutally, come to think of it, there kinda is a comparison insofar that at the beginning the public was behind the war (their period of support was much longer) and then started to be agianst it.

Oh, and that 94% doesn't sound accurate, but for the sake of argument, at least 44% of those people also want us out of Iraq asap.

I never even heard of anyone that was pro-war except perhaps munitions manufacturers and they would be foolish to say that in public.

Well, and the politicians who get money from gun people, and the people who were part of those groups, or people who have family members who are part of those groups-woops, just described a whole mess of people in the Bush Administration, most notabely the president whose father does a lot of work with Munitions people.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Irony. The war protesters effectively killed nearly as many of our soldiers with words rather than the munitions of the enemy.

When I read statements like this I realize how misinformed people in the USA are. For anyone to blame war protesters for soldier's death is as wrong as wrong can be. It's also a tremendous insult to the USA, where protest is not a negative, it is not illegal, and it most definitely is not responsible for the death of soldiers half a world away.

 

[faminedynasty]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

The war protesters effectively killed nearly as many of our soldiers with words rather than the munitions of the enemy.
You get a chance to protest at the elections every 4 years. Show some restraint and patience people and make sure you vote.

Ah, so if the american people had just kept their mouths shut, falied to question the lunacy of the horrific war in Vietnam, and let the war go on for five or ten or fifteen more years...lives would have been saved? I'm sorry, but a simple election would not have stopped the war, only a massive popular movement and the sentiment of the people could, and did. Stopping the war in Vietnam was one of the greatest accomplishments of the common people in the United States in the 20th century. Thank God for all the lives that were saved.
Oh, and in regards to showing "some restraint and patience," it is absurd to be patient with policies that are resulting in good men being killed every day.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Ah, so if the american people had just kept their mouths shut, falied to question the lunacy of the horrific war in Vietnam, and let the war go on for five or ten or fifteen more years...lives would have been saved? I'm sorry, but a simple election would not have stopped the war, only a massive popular movement and the sentiment of the people could, and did. Stopping the war in Vietnam was one of the greatest accomplishments of the common people in the United States in the 20th century. Thank God for all the lives that were saved.
Oh, and in regards to showing "some restraint and patience," it is absurd to be patient with policies that are resulting in good men being killed every day.

Absolutely, well said.