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Are Libertarians Hypocrites?

calamity

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I think they are simply pawns of the Billionaires who exploit the prejudices of your average angry white male. But...hey--

Here are 11 questions to help you decide.

11 questions to see if libertarians are hypocrites - Salon.com

1. Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of “spontaneous order”—and if not, why not?

2. Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?

3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?

4. Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?

5. Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate.

6. Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?

7. Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?

8. Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?

9. Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms?

10. Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one (Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.”) , or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?

11. Libertarianism would have died out as a philosophy if it weren’t for the funding that’s been lavished on the movement by billionaires like Thiel and the Kochs and corporations like ExxonMobil. So our final question is:
If you believe in the free market, why weren’t you willing to accept as final the judgment against libertarianism rendered decades ago in the free and unfettered marketplace of ideas?
 

Harshaw

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I think they are simply pawns of the Billionaires who exploit the prejudices of your average angry white male. But...hey--

Here are 11 questions to help you decide.

11 questions to see if libertarians are hypocrites - Salon.com

1. Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of “spontaneous order”—and if not, why not?

2. Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?

3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?

4. Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?

5. Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate.

6. Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?

7. Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?

8. Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?

9. Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms?

10. Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one (Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.”) , or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?

11. Libertarianism would have died out as a philosophy if it weren’t for the funding that’s been lavished on the movement by billionaires like Thiel and the Kochs and corporations like ExxonMobil. So our final question is:
If you believe in the free market, why weren’t you willing to accept as final the judgment against libertarianism rendered decades ago in the free and unfettered marketplace of ideas?

These questions do not expose "hypocrisy." Most of them boil down to "Is our libertarian willing to admit he's just plain wrong?" Apparently, to be a "non-hypocritical libertarian," the answer has to be "yes."

This post fails on a level unusual even for DP.

Never mind that Rand Paul is, once again, a Republican.
 

Harshaw

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This, of course, is my favorite one:

3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?

Because libertarians are very, very good at this, and when they not only "acknowledge" it but insist it's true, liberals, "progressives," and socialists bash them for treating "people" as "slaves" or "commodities." But that's when the "market forces" are disfavorable to workers, of course. "Hypocrisy." Hmmmm.
 
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ecofarm

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Libertarian-lefts are hypocrites. They do not support economic liberty.
 

Fiddytree

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Libertarians are hypocrites, because you will find every group is in some way hypocritical.

That being said, I also question the second sentence in the article. First, it presumes libertarianism, as libertarians believe today, was the overriding philosophy of the American past, when in reality, it was not. There was a decent chunk of ideas complimentary to libertarianism, but no, even then it was relatively weak. Second of all, libertarianism as a political movement actually started at the time the author declares it dead. Third, Ayn Rand is one prominent figure within libertarian thought, and there were many others that actually contributed to its self-awareness.
 

Paschendale

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In my experience, most libertarians are extremely against government intervention that causes a problem for them, but generally okay with government intervention that causes a problem for other people. "Initiation of force", as they so often like to say, is not alright... except force used to protect the status quo that benefits them. Then it's not really force. It's all a lot of selfishness. It also tends to condemn any use of power by a government to help its citizens, but is alright with use of power by a few citizens to help themselves, regardless of the cost to the people they're using that power on. Power is power, but it's only abuse if it harms them. It's a very selective ideology.

Obviously, responsible and restrained use of power, especially by a powerful government, is important. But to judge responsibility and reasonableness of a government using that power with regard to three hundred million people, based primarily on one's personal gain, is nonsense. And is what most libertarians tend to do.
 

Mach

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1. Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of “spontaneous order”—and if not, why not?
Sure if you let me spontaneously fire them for their unionization. Can't have cake and eat it too, still.
2. Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?
See compensation plan, stock option plans, and whatever other voluntary compensation agreements each individual in the production chain agrees to.
3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?
Sure, in the unemployment line that they will next be in if I'm allowed to fire them and higher non-unions. Or better, immigrants who actually value and appreciate our relatively free market and really want to work hard at the job.

4. Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?
Of course.

5. Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate.
Because they believe in the concept of democracy, all government regulations are good? What a dumb argument. I don't think anyone here would be so silly to back that one.

6. Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?
Depends on which wealth and which role.

7. Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?
That's tricky. Unless everyone has to abide by that, then some not using protection while others could would be unfair competition.

8. Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?
Tyranny of the majority.

9. Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms?
No large corporation has ever to my knowledge threatened my freedom. Certainly not on the scale of liberal policies that threaten gun control, more taxes, etc. Not even close. If I don't like Microsoft, I don't use their products, and go apple or Linux or suck my thumb.

10. Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one (Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.”) , or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?
Rand was human and leveraged celebrity and notoriety to make her claims, she likely has made all sorts of off the mark claims.

11. Libertarianism would have died out as a philosophy if it weren’t for the funding that’s been lavished on the movement by billionaires like Thiel and the Kochs and corporations like ExxonMobil. So our final question is:?
I thought the core of libertarianism was enshrined in our declaration of independence and to a degree, in the structure of the government we created to protect our individual liberties. While it may be true if we had NOT valued our freedom, that it may have died out..it certainly wouldn't make the philosophy dead. Honestly, have you gone to school? Classical education is almost entirely about dead schools of thought anyway, it perpetuates them in a sort of undead way that you see today people still debating old classics why? Because they were taught it, rather than the most applicable modern day interpretations. What a waste!
 

Harshaw

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In my experience, most libertarians are extremely against government intervention that causes a problem for them, but generally okay with government intervention that causes a problem for other people. "Initiation of force", as they so often like to say, is not alright... except force used to protect the status quo that benefits them. Then it's not really force. It's all a lot of selfishness. It also tends to condemn any use of power by a government to help its citizens, but is alright with use of power by a few citizens to help themselves, regardless of the cost to the people they're using that power on. Power is power, but it's only abuse if it harms them. It's a very selective ideology.

Obviously, responsible and restrained use of power, especially by a powerful government, is important. But to judge responsibility and reasonableness of a government using that power with regard to three hundred million people, based primarily on one's personal gain, is nonsense. And is what most libertarians tend to do.

And . . . your examples of all of this are what?
 

calamity

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These questions do not expose "hypocrisy." Most of them boil down to "Is our libertarian willing to admit he's just plain wrong?" Apparently, to be a "non-hypocritical libertarian," the answer has to be "yes."

This post fails on a level unusual even for DP.

Never mind that Rand Paul is, once again, a Republican.

Wrong Rand. While you think of Paul, the article refers to Ayn.
 

Spriggs05

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I think they are simply pawns of the Billionaires who exploit the prejudices of your average angry white male. But...hey--

Here are 11 questions to help you decide.

11 questions to see if libertarians are hypocrites - Salon.com

1. Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of “spontaneous order”—and if not, why not?

2. Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?

3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?

4. Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?

5. Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate.

6. Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?

7. Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?

8. Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?

9. Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms?

10. Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one (Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.”) , or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?

11. Libertarianism would have died out as a philosophy if it weren’t for the funding that’s been lavished on the movement by billionaires like Thiel and the Kochs and corporations like ExxonMobil. So our final question is:
If you believe in the free market, why weren’t you willing to accept as final the judgment against libertarianism rendered decades ago in the free and unfettered marketplace of ideas?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Yes, the point is that governments are overregulating people, they need to relax controls and restrictions in my opinion.
6) No, also depends on your definition of wealth, monetary? Material?
7) Partially, if someone chooses to upload their data/files/personal information then that is their choice.
8) No
9) I can see why some would think that, but it is very unlikely.
10) What does this have to do with Libertarianism? Also Ayn Rand was off on that and did not identify herself as a Libertarian, she hated them.
11) Biased hackery.
 

Harshaw

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Wrong Rand. While you think of Paul, the article refers to Ayn.

Yeah. What's right at the top of the article, champ?

rand_paul8-620x412.jpg


That's not Ayn.
 

calamity

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I wonder if Libertarians would prefer fire departments only put out fires if someone purchased "fire extinguishing" services ahead of time or agreed that fire departments should wait for a homeowner to scratch them a check before they attempted to put out the fire and rescue trapped loved ones.
 

iacardsfan

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Somebody is mad that Gary Johnson took Romney votes away...
 

jaeger19

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Most libertarians.. are not hypocrites in the least.. at least in my experience... in fact, I think if the folks on this board REALLY wanted to take the time to learn about libertarians and the libertarian party.. most if not all would agree with a lot of what libertarians are for.


the problem is.. that lot of folks, and a number are on this website that call themselves libertarians.. are not libertarians.

for example.. the libertarian party is pro choice..


1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

In addition, the libertarian party is okay with gay marriage..


1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.

Libertarians are also fine with labor unions..



2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

Platform | Libertarian Party
 

Henrin

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And . . . your examples of all of this are what?

Did you ever get the feeling you knew what would happen next? This is one of those times.
 

Harshaw

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Did you ever get the feeling you knew what would happen next? This is one of those times.

I don't tend to get answers to those questions, no.
 

Harshaw

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I wonder if Libertarians would prefer fire departments only put out fires if someone purchased "fire extinguishing" services ahead of time or agreed that fire departments should wait for a homeowner to scratch them a check before they attempted to put out the fire and rescue trapped loved ones.

So, you can't defend your own OP nor your assertion that Rand Paul (a Republican) wasn't referenced at your link, and you're reduced to taking juvenile, ignorant potshots. Fair enough. Not that the whole thread wasn't that, anyway.
 

Drake McHugh

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I think they are simply pawns of the Billionaires who exploit the prejudices of your average angry white male. But...hey--

Here are 11 questions to help you decide.

11 questions to see if libertarians are hypocrites - Salon.com

1. Are unions, political parties, elections, and social movements like Occupy examples of “spontaneous order”—and if not, why not?

2. Is a libertarian willing to admit that production is the result of many forces, each of which should be recognized and rewarded?

3. Is our libertarian willing to acknowledge that workers who bargain for their services, individually and collectively, are also employing market forces?

4. Is our libertarian willing to admit that a “free market” needs regulation?

5. Does our libertarian believe in democracy? If yes, explain what’s wrong with governments that regulate.

6. Does our libertarian use wealth that wouldn’t exist without government in order to preach against the role of government?

7. Does our libertarian reject any and all government protection for his intellectual property?

8. Does our libertarian recognize that democracy is a form of marketplace?

9. Does our libertarian recognize that large corporations are a threat to our freedoms?

10. Does he think that Rand was off the mark on this one (Ayn Rand was an adamant opponent of good works, writing that “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves.”) , or does he agree that historical figures like King and Gandhi were “parasites”?

11. Libertarianism would have died out as a philosophy if it weren’t for the funding that’s been lavished on the movement by billionaires like Thiel and the Kochs and corporations like ExxonMobil. So our final question is:
If you believe in the free market, why weren’t you willing to accept as final the judgment against libertarianism rendered decades ago in the free and unfettered marketplace of ideas?

Your a parody.
 
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