Are gay people born that way or is it a choice?

[Navy Pride]

It shouldn't matter anyway. Every group should have the same rights under our law.

And they do.....The difference is gays want special rights.......they want to change the law............

 

[Navy Pride]

Were you born heterosexual? There's your answer about homosexuality.

It is my opinion that all people are born straight and because of many factors such as the environment growing up some people chose the gay life.....If that was not so how do you explain the many gay people who have changed and are now leading straight lives with a wife and children............

Again I say no one knows for sure though.....I am for equal rights for all Americans Straight or gay.........

 

[Vandeervecken]

And they do.....The difference is gays want special rights.......they want to change the law............

Please tell us what special rights gays want.

As to changing the law, is that not what the civil rights and women's rights movements were all about? Changing laws that infringe rights is a good thing.

 

[Saboteur]

Were you born heterosexual? There's your answer about homosexuality.

Growng up in the same environment with my brothers and sister I'd say I must have been born heterosexual. I am attracted to women of all sorts I can't help it. I've been happily married for 6 years and hope for many more.

My sister must have been born heterosexual as well. She has been married twice and has had several boyfriends since her marriages.

My brothers must have been born homosexual, one did have a girlfriend in highschool but when he went to college he discovered that he was gay. He is now 50 years old and is not questioning his sexuality.

My other brother has never slept with a woman and he never will. He says he was never attracted to women. Never fantasized about women. Got busted with a Playgirl magazine when he was 16... I'm pretty sure he was born gay.

 

[Kelzie]

It is my opinion that all people are born straight and because of many factors such as the environment growing up some people chose the gay life.....If that was not so how do you explain the many gay people who have changed and are now leading straight lives with a wife and children............

Again I say no one knows for sure though.....I am for equal rights for all Americans Straight or gay.........

There is a massive amount of evidence on this thread that proves you wrong. The fact that you haven't taken the time to look at the studies that prove homosexuality is rarely a choice shows that you are choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

 

[aps]

It is my opinion that all people are born straight and because of many factors such as the environment growing up some people chose the gay life.....If that was not so how do you explain the many gay people who have changed and are now leading straight lives with a wife and children............

Again I say no one knows for sure though.....I am for equal rights for all Americans Straight or gay.........

See Saboteur's post above, where he talks about his two, homosexual brothers.

Do you genuinely think that someone would choose to be gay, when society treats them like they are abnormal, disgusting, and the like? Living a straight life is easier, don't you think? Maybe those who decide to get married and have kids have taken the easy way out or they are doing it for reasons other than that they decide they will be attracted to the opposite sex.

Take my godmother. She has a daughter who was unquestionably gay but she never came out to her parents. She had a party, which she invited her parents to (and my parents) and my mom said that this was clearly Wendy's "coming out" party. However, after the party, people started treating her differently. They had hunches that she was gay (she fits the stereotype), but the party confirmed it. Wendy has now married a guy, and I cannot believe it. My mom (who is rather naive when it comes to this) says that Wendy is heterosexual. I doubt she is, although she is living as though she is one.

Anyway, my point is that Wendy has chosen to live a heterosexual life, and the acceptance she has received from those who treated her differently after her party is shocking to me (but in a disgusting sort of way). So for some, it's about fitting in.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Were you born heterosexual? There's your answer about homosexuality.

good answer, if people read my post, physicians are privey to this information.


Most homosexuals knew they were homosexual at the same time most heterosexuals realize they are heterosexuals (when they begin their sexual exploration around puberty.)

A 5 year old has no idea he or she was born gay or heterosexual (althuogh I referenced a psycology study that showed toddlers play behavior seems predictive.) because they don't know. But they do know when they reach 12 or 13 or whatever their puberty time bomb goes off.

Thus, the data that has accumulated with twin studies, recent brain scans etc. and congenital adrenal hyperplasia are too significant to dismiss.

 

[Lantzolot]

If homosexuality is genetic, how has the gene carried forward through so many generations?

If people with blue eyes, dominant and recessive, stop reproducing, in how many generations will blue eyes die out?

Yes, of course, homosexuals do, sometimes, reproduce -- but is it in enough numbers to carry the gene in such a large number through so many generations?


IMHO, its a product of environment more than anything else.

Perhaps he is saying it is a spontaneous mutation?

I think it is choice.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Were you born heterosexual? There's your answer about homosexuality.

Here is more data on brain differences.


http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/13575.html

"It is one more piece of evidence ... that is showing that sexual orientation is not all learned," said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.

Witelson, who was not part of the research team, said the findings clearly show a biological involvement in sexual orientation.

The study, published in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, was done by researchers at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ho...r=FP-tab-web-t&vst=0&vs=www-news.uchicago.edu

 

[bandaidwoman]

Perhaps he is saying it is a spontaneous mutation?

I think it is choice.

Once again, it can have a biological basis without a single carrier gene. But could it be a spontaneous mutation? Perhaps ,but I doubt it. I believe it is the in-utero environment (as the data so strongly shows in women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia shows) and related to epigenetic material. (just google epigenetic material since i don't feel like teaching a basic molecular biology course on this forum.)

Can't ignore the brain studies that I also referenced. Ignoring all this scientific data is just plain silly.

 

[Kelzie]

Once again, it can have a biological basis without a single carrier gene. But could it be a spontaneous mutation? Perhaps ,but I doubt it. I believe it is the in-utero environment (as the data so strongly shows in women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia shows) and related to epigenetic material. (just google epigenetic material since i don't feel like teaching a basic molecular biology course on this forum.)

Can't ignore the brain studies that I also referenced. Ignoring all this scientific data is just plain silly.

Just curious, do you believe the in-utero environment has a different affect on male and female homosexuality? The research I've seen seems to show that male homosexuality has more of a biological basis than female.

 

[ptsdkid]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--the rest of you are so far in left field on this topic, I'm beginning to think you can't think for yourselves. My earlier posting in this thread proves that no one is born gay. This scientific heresay attributing birth with some kind of gay tendencies is just that...heresay. I relate this scientific call for the global destruction from the Greenhouse affect or from this Global Warming game that's being played with this scientific nonsense about being born gay. What happened, we had one of the coldest snowiest winters last year here in New England; did the Global Warming enthusiasts take a year off to buy themselves an overstuffed winter coat? HeHe.

So Navy Pride was right on the money by insisting that the environment is the root cause behind determining the sexual orientation of each individual, and that includes everyone here. Look, you could go back and look at the examples I gave earlier in this thread, but someone else mentioned a male prisoner. Let's say this prisoner entered prison as a normal heteresexual married man and spent 20-30 years in jail without having conjugal visits from his wife. The man enters prison in the prime of his sexual life. So now mother nature takes over and either he is coerced into or goes willingly into homosexual encounters. See how the environment becomes the sole factor in determining this guy's sexual prowess? My earlier example showed how a married woman gets violently raped at knifepoint and thus divorces her husband and settles for a gentler more passive female for her ad hoc relationship. Her traumatic environment coerced her into settling for a more soothing and guarded relationship. The thought of her husband making love to her brought back intrusive meories of the rape. BTW, the example of the male prisoner could and does represent nearly 100% of the long term female prisoners, as their new environment dictates that with an all female sex pool to choose from--chances are they will redefine their sexual orientation to that of being lesbian. Environment is the key here, and always has been.

KidTim

 

[bandaidwoman]

Just curious, do you believe the in-utero environment has a different affect on male and female homosexuality? The research I've seen seems to show that male homosexuality has more of a biological basis than female.

To be honest the research I am most familiar with is the women with congential adrenal hyperplasia where we know with concrete certainty that their in utero environment is awash in male hormoes and 40-60% go on to become homosexual or bisexual. What studies are you referring to regarding greater effect on men?

 

[Kelzie]

To be honest the research I am most familiar with is the women with congential adrenal hyperplasia where we know with concrete certainty that their in utero environment is awash in male hormoes and 40-60% go on to become homosexual or bisexual. What studies are you referring to regarding greater effect on men?

Actually, I suppose the discrepency might be due to the fact that a large percentage of homosexuality tests seem to be done on males exclusively. Like the twins study. Why is that? There was another study (can't recall the name of it) that dealt with the increased number of homosexual males born to abnormally fertile women, but not homosexual females.

 

[Kelzie]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--the rest of you are so far in left field on this topic, I'm beginning to think you can't think for yourselves. My earlier posting in this thread proves that no one is born gay. This scientific heresay attributing birth with some kind of gay tendencies is just that...heresay. I relate this scientific call for the global destruction from the Greenhouse affect or from this Global Warming game that's being played with this scientific nonsense about being born gay. What happened, we had one of the coldest snowiest winters last year here in New England; did the Global Warming enthusiasts take a year off to buy themselves an overstuffed winter coat? HeHe.

So Navy Pride was right on the money by insisting that the environment is the root cause behind determining the sexual orientation of each individual, and that includes everyone here. Look, you could go back and look at the examples I gave earlier in this thread, but someone else mentioned a male prisoner. Let's say this prisoner entered prison as a normal heteresexual married man and spent 20-30 years in jail without having conjugal visits from his wife. The man enters prison in the prime of his sexual life. So now mother nature takes over and either he is coerced into or goes willingly into homosexual encounters. See how the environment becomes the sole factor in determining this guy's sexual prowess? My earlier example showed how a married woman gets violently raped at knifepoint and thus divorces her husband and settles for a gentler more passive female for her ad hoc relationship. Her traumatic environment coerced her into settling for a more soothing and guarded relationship. The thought of her husband making love to her brought back intrusive meories of the rape. BTW, the example of the male prisoner could and does represent nearly 100% of the long term female prisoners, as their new environment dictates that with an all female sex pool to choose from--chances are they will redefine their sexual orientation to that of being lesbian. Environment is the key here, and always has been.

KidTim

Have you even read any of the reasearch posted here? Why don't you try rebutting it instead of saying the same incorrect thing over and over again.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Actually, I suppose the discrepency might be due to the fact that a large percentage of homosexuality tests seem to be done on males exclusively. Like the twins study. Why is that? There was another study (can't recall the name of it) that dealt with the increased number of homosexual males born to abnormally fertile women, but not homosexual females.

It's not to say in utero environment does not affect the male fetus gender orientation but I don't have the concrete data I have with congenital adrenal hyperplasia that i have with women. The study that more homosexual men are born from highly fertile women does suggest that the mother's gestational/hormonal status may play a role. As for recruiting twin studies using men I don't know why the researchers found it easier to recruit male subjects than female. I do know the earlier studies were done at a time when men vastly outnumbered women in Universities and so it just may be a sampling bias due to the availability of subjects at the University systems. But I can only speak for the earlier studies (done in the fifties etc.)

 

[bandaidwoman]

Have you even read any of the reasearch posted here? Why don't you try rebutting it instead of saying the same incorrect thing over and over again.

I agree,and equating the scientific studies to global warming science is just insane:mrgreen:

How about this for those that want "concrete" proof. We have not completely isolated a singular gene for male pattern baldness. Does that make it a choice?:mrgreen: (and the AR gene does not count since most of the subjects who had it were not bald) I personallly believe it is polygenetic with epigenitic and environmental influences triggering it .(oops did not mean to go off tangent.)

 

[teacher]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--

Ladies, Gentlemen, and Billo,

Proof that pstkid is self smacking. He don't need my help. Look at the bright side, at least Navy can now say, see, SOMEONE agrees with me. Lord, this just writes itself. So much I could say here. This calls for a Top Ten.

 

[Saboteur]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--the rest of you are so far in left field on this topic, I'm beginning to think you can't think for yourselves. My earlier posting in this thread proves that no one is born gay. This scientific heresay attributing birth with some kind of gay tendencies is just that...heresay. I relate this scientific call for the global destruction from the Greenhouse affect or from this Global Warming game that's being played with this scientific nonsense about being born gay. What happened, we had one of the coldest snowiest winters last year here in New England; did the Global Warming enthusiasts take a year off to buy themselves an overstuffed winter coat? HeHe.

So Navy Pride was right on the money by insisting that the environment is the root cause behind determining the sexual orientation of each individual, and that includes everyone here. Look, you could go back and look at the examples I gave earlier in this thread, but someone else mentioned a male prisoner. Let's say this prisoner entered prison as a normal heteresexual married man and spent 20-30 years in jail without having conjugal visits from his wife. The man enters prison in the prime of his sexual life. So now mother nature takes over and either he is coerced into or goes willingly into homosexual encounters. See how the environment becomes the sole factor in determining this guy's sexual prowess? My earlier example showed how a married woman gets violently raped at knifepoint and thus divorces her husband and settles for a gentler more passive female for her ad hoc relationship. Her traumatic environment coerced her into settling for a more soothing and guarded relationship. The thought of her husband making love to her brought back intrusive meories of the rape. BTW, the example of the male prisoner could and does represent nearly 100% of the long term female prisoners, as their new environment dictates that with an all female sex pool to choose from--chances are they will redefine their sexual orientation to that of being lesbian. Environment is the key here, and always has been.

KidTim

Are people born serial killers?

 

[aps]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--the rest of you are so far in left field on this topic, I'm beginning to think you can't think for yourselves. My earlier posting in this thread proves that no one is born gay. This scientific heresay attributing birth with some kind of gay tendencies is just that...heresay. I relate this scientific call for the global destruction from the Greenhouse affect or from this Global Warming game that's being played with this scientific nonsense about being born gay. What happened, we had one of the coldest snowiest winters last year here in New England; did the Global Warming enthusiasts take a year off to buy themselves an overstuffed winter coat? HeHe.

So Navy Pride was right on the money by insisting that the environment is the root cause behind determining the sexual orientation of each individual, and that includes everyone here. Look, you could go back and look at the examples I gave earlier in this thread, but someone else mentioned a male prisoner. Let's say this prisoner entered prison as a normal heteresexual married man and spent 20-30 years in jail without having conjugal visits from his wife. The man enters prison in the prime of his sexual life. So now mother nature takes over and either he is coerced into or goes willingly into homosexual encounters. See how the environment becomes the sole factor in determining this guy's sexual prowess? My earlier example showed how a married woman gets violently raped at knifepoint and thus divorces her husband and settles for a gentler more passive female for her ad hoc relationship. Her traumatic environment coerced her into settling for a more soothing and guarded relationship. The thought of her husband making love to her brought back intrusive meories of the rape. BTW, the example of the male prisoner could and does represent nearly 100% of the long term female prisoners, as their new environment dictates that with an all female sex pool to choose from--chances are they will redefine their sexual orientation to that of being lesbian. Environment is the key here, and always has been.

KidTim

LOL This coming from a person who has probably never sat down and had a heart-to-heart talk with a gay person or mulitiple gay persons to have any understanding of what it means to be gay.

 

[barfolemew]

**So far other than Navy Pride and myself--the rest of you are so far in left field on this topic, I'm beginning to think you can't think for yourselves. My earlier posting in this thread proves that no one is born gay. This scientific heresay attributing birth with some kind of gay tendencies is just that...heresay. I relate this scientific call for the global destruction from the Greenhouse affect or from this Global Warming game that's being played with this scientific nonsense about being born gay. What happened, we had one of the coldest snowiest winters last year here in New England; did the Global Warming enthusiasts take a year off to buy themselves an overstuffed winter coat? HeHe.

Reply:
Wow, I started this post to gain some insight on how people felt and perhaps learn some science that was out there. I am learning that there are some really ignorant people out there. I am not a big debater, I mostly use forums to learn stuff and see different viewpoints.
When I hear people talk about scientific data as "heresay" I start thinking we'll just fire up the Inquisition and torture the "heretics" until they admit that this so called "science" is false.
Ridiculous. I am shocked to see such blatent bigotry, ignorance and prejudice.

 

[Duke]

Are people born serial killers?

Well, do you belive in destiny? :shock:


Duke

 

[Navy Pride]

Please tell us what special rights gays want.

As to changing the law, is that not what the civil rights and women's rights movements were all about? Changing laws that infringe rights is a good thing.

They want the special right to change the definition of marriage and marry one another........

 

[Navy Pride]

There is a massive amount of evidence on this thread that proves you wrong. The fact that you haven't taken the time to look at the studies that prove homosexuality is rarely a choice shows that you are choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

There is just as much evidence the other way too....Truth be told no one knows for sure......

 

[Navy Pride]

See Saboteur's post above, where he talks about his two, homosexual brothers.

Do you genuinely think that someone would choose to be gay, when society treats them like they are abnormal, disgusting, and the like? Living a straight life is easier, don't you think? Maybe those who decide to get married and have kids have taken the easy way out or they are doing it for reasons other than that they decide they will be attracted to the opposite sex.

Take my godmother. She has a daughter who was unquestionably gay but she never came out to her parents. She had a party, which she invited her parents to (and my parents) and my mom said that this was clearly Wendy's "coming out" party. However, after the party, people started treating her differently. They had hunches that she was gay (she fits the stereotype), but the party confirmed it. Wendy has now married a guy, and I cannot believe it. My mom (who is rather naive when it comes to this) says that Wendy is heterosexual. I doubt she is, although she is living as though she is one.

Anyway, my point is that Wendy has chosen to live a heterosexual life, and the acceptance she has received from those who treated her differently after her party is shocking to me (but in a disgusting sort of way). So for some, it's about fitting in.

I am basicly talking about male gays aps.............When it comes to women there are women like Ann Heche who are gay one day and then then the next day they get married and have children............