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Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom


Jellybean:

Well I got the first dose of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine and have had no problems to date. Unlike the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines O-AZ and J&J vaccines are traditional vaccines which use proteins which mimic the docking protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virion as an antigen to trigger an immune response and to induce T-Cells to design and produce antigen-specific antibodies created to fight the SARS-CoV-2 virions/viruses when they appear in the body. This is thirty year old biotechnology which has been well tested. I agree with your skepticism about the untested and new technology of mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna but not your skepticism about the more traditional ones.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
I have lost all faith in the CDC who has spread more than their share of misinformation and deception. I will not get any vaccine unless it is thoroughly tested and I refuse to submit to an experiment. I do know way too many injured from the JJ so traditional or not it has NOT been tested adequately. How can they spend years testing something that appeared in Jan 2020? Btw: they have not been able to vaccinate for the common cold which is a form of corona. I’ll admit not knowing as much about JJ but the reactions I am aware of from people I know are unacceptable. 3 hospitalizations from ppl in the same workplace is nuts. I’m pretty sure JJ uses a diff way to express our natural immune system and I would not want to be part of that experiment. They need to properly test and then get back with me. The new strain is going to attack the vaccinated the hardest since their systems will be primed.

The more who take the jab the more they can push the narrative. No one wants to regret what they did to their bodies so the more who do it, the less push back from the masses. All in it together has been the mantra. We are beginning to live in a dystopian society like the kind we read in books decades ago. Burning books because they were dangerous sounds a lot like what is said in this forum. I’ve been told I must be stopped. My opinion and linked information is dangerous. Delete certain information that doesn’t follow the narrative in order to keep people ignorant. Surreal.
 
Ethel2 said:
Technically you aren’t a baby (the youngest form of a human being) until...
Click to expand...
You haven't answered any of my questions. You're citing facts I already know and that aren't relevant to our debate.

Evilroddy said:
Vaccination (artificial immunity) is a solution in so far as it gets the population to levels of herd immunity where viral spread is degraded and inhibited.
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It might for a disease such as polio. COVID, by contrast, is even more contagious than the flu. The best epidemiologists of our time have conceded that it will never be "inhibited", much less in the next ten years.

Put differently, vaccination does not mean the difference between whether COVID continues to circulate or dies away. Likewise, the flu vaccination has never meant the difference between the flu continuing to circulate or dying away.

All of this is true for the PPE described. In point of fact, it's likely more effective in reducing the rate of transmission than vaccination. Yet you won't answer my question about whether it's our civic duty to purchase and wear such equipment.

Evilroddy said:
Eventually the disease becomes predictably endemic and then can gradually be targeted by further vaccination in order to wipe it out, like small pox was in most of the world.
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If you can find me a single epidemiologist willing to go on record saying this about COVID, I'll buy your piggy a tuxedo.
 

BTW: did you know that the J&J vaccine, considered a more traditional vaccine, DOES interact with your DNA. It uses an adenovirus vector (deactivated so it can't replicate) to carry DNA instructions into your cells. Once inside cell it enters the nucleus (where your DNA is located) and alters the DNA inside your cells, instructing it to make spike protein. The mRNA vaccines never enter the nucleus; your DNA is never involved in the process.
So the J&J vaccine alters your DNA; the mRNA vaccines do not. I don't expect you to believe this because it doesn't fit your warped narrative, but here is a bit if a summary of how the J&J vaccine works:

How the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine Works (Published 2022)

An adenovirus helps prime the immune system to fight the coronavirus.
www.nytimes.com
 

This is the wrong thread to be discussing abortion rights. Happy to discuss it on the correct thread.
 
"Are they all violating your personal 'liberty'"?

Yes, of course.

I concede that personal liberties have largely evaporated in the past 20 years. This doesn't mean we should cede the few liberties we have left.

I keep my phone GPS chip disabled, and hence only my phone company (and the government, presumably through some valid warrant) can access my location data. This won't exempt me from "geofence warrant" police thuggery, I suppose, but it's the best I can do.

The places where I use my ATM and credit card are known only to my bank and the state, not to uninvolved third parties.

My driver's license shows that I'm certified to drive. It doesn't require me to undergo a medical procedure, and the license is pertinent to my ability to drive a vehicle. A vaccine passport does require me to undergo a medical procedure, and has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to purchase a head of lettuce at the supermarket.

I've complied religiously with the masking laws, although I'm convinced by the data that they're a big fat placebo. I've complied religiously with the social distancing rules and lockdowns, despite my reasonable belief that they're causing far more harm than good. If getting a negative COVID test prior to flying somewhere gives my fellow passengers peace of mind, I can even tolerate that. But I draw the line at compulsory vaccination, which is precisely what "vaccine passports" are. I can think of no less than seven excellent reasons not to cross that line, and hence my slippery slope ends there.
 

COTO:

Read this from last June. It lays things out nicely.

How the COVID-19 Pandemic Could End

Recent epidemics provide clues to ways the current crisis could stop
www.scientificamerican.com

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
I just read the entire thing. The strongest conclusion they make is that "there is reason to think a vaccine could work effectively", presuming "a vaccine is administered to all of the world’s eight billion inhabitants who are not currently sick or recovered".

OK. And since we now know that the vaccines are ineffective against variants, and immunity lasts a whopping six months, this becomes "several vaccines are administered every six months to all of the world’s eight billion inhabitants who are not currently sick or recovered". Otherwise, "It will circulate and make people sick seasonally."--which is the prognostication I've heard from every quarter.

And you still haven't answered my question. But I'll let you off the hook. I know why you won't answer, and why you can't answer. If you spend a bit of time contemplating why, I'll have done my job here.
 

Actually, the New England Journal published a study that the Pfizer-BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine can protect people against concerning new coronavirus variants, including one first seen in South Africa called B.1.351.

Moderna has also been shown to highly effective against the variants including the South Africa varient.
 
Their efficacy drops substantially is what I've read.

The point is moot anyway, since they don't confer long-term immunity. This much isn't in dispute by anybody.

I'm sorry, but the idea that we're going to flawlessly vaccinate all 8 billion people on Earth twice a year for the next decade, with every single iteration of vaccines being highly effective against all variants, is the fantasy to end all fantasies. It simply isn't going to happen. The virus is here to stay. Thank you, China.

If by some miracle 2+ years down the road it looks like vaccination programs have the virus on the ropes and there's some reasonable hope the threat might be extinguished, then, assuming the technology is the same and no unforeseen consequences have turned up in the interim, I'll get the shot. I may even get it even if this isn't the case, which is quite the overture on my part, considering I have absolutely no need for it myself and I'll be getting shot up with who-knows-what despite knowing it's doing jack all to permanently end the threat.
 
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No you don't. Ask Fauci. He is explaining getting the vaccine changes nothing.
 
COTO said:
Their efficacy drops substantially is what I've read.
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I think you are confusing the effecacy of the mRNA vaccines ( Pfizer , Moderna, + BioNTec )
with the vaccines J&J and AZ.

They do have a measureable drop in efficacy against the variants.

J&J says vaccine effective against Covid, though weaker against South Africa variant

The vaccine could be authorized by the FDA by the end of February.
www.nbcnews.com

Rollout of AstraZeneca Covid-19 Vaccine Halted in South Africa After Study

A small clinical trial in South Africa found that AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine doesn’t appear to protect recipients against mild and moderate illness from a fast-spreading new strain of the virus.
www.wsj.com
 
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COTO said:
The point is moot anyway, since they don't confer long-term immunity. This much isn't in dispute by anybody.
Click to expand...

I disagree and so do many experts especially if one has been vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine.

The booster shot is given within weeks of the first shot.
 

The bold part is factually incorrect.
No one knows if they confer long term immunity. Some ID docs I follow think they will last at least 10 years unless an escape variant appears. People had immunity after the 1918 pandemic FIFTY YEARS LATER.
Regardless, I can handle getting a booster every now and then. SARS was eradicated; this can be eradicated too, eventually.
 
Ethel2 said:
The bold part is factually incorrect.
No one knows if they confer long term immunity. Some ID docs I follow think they will last at least 10 years unless an escape variant appears.
Click to expand...
I guess we'll see, won't we?

I'll even throw in a bonus: I'll concede the point if maintaining robust immunity requires fewer than 4 separate vaccinations in the next three years. Meaning that you win even if the average vaccine is effective against the major circulating strains for as little as 16 months.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I'm just saying that already I'm hearing a lot of rumblings about yearly vaccinations. The Big Pharma CEOs are going on record talking about "second" and "third" vaccine regimens.

If a vaccine will provide 10 years of immunity against the major variants, I'll be very happy to be proven wrong.
 

I am hoping you are mistaken also.

With the mRNA vaccines we have the booster shots weeks later.

Many childhood vaccinations have booster shots before attending kindergarten.

At 4-6 years of age Measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) (2nd dose)
 
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People had residual immunity against the virus that caused the 1918 pandemic FIFTY YEARS LATER. The measles vaccine (requires two doses) confers lifetime immunity. Other vaccines require boosters-most of them require booster shots.
For now, no one really knows. Its all new territory. I heard ten years of immunity; you heard annual boosters. I can handle either alternate-I have no fear of needles or of the mRNA vaccines.
 

Here is what doctors say about it:

Public health experts are still learning about COVID-19 immunity, including how protective it is after a natural infection—and how long that protection actually lasts once you have antibodies, says Iahn Gonsenhauser, M.D., chief quality and patient safety officer at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center.

Antibodies are proteins made by your immune system to fight infections. So, if you had COVID-19 back in April, it’s unclear if those antibodies, as well as other important infection fighters like T-cells, would still be at detectable levels in your system now or be robust enough to fight off a new, highly infectious coronavirus variant, like B.1.1.7 (the U.K. variant) or P.1 (the Brazil variant).

There have also been confirmed reports of people getting re-infected after recovering from an initial bout of COVID-19, so getting vaccinated will help to ensure that you will, in fact, have strong immunity against the virus—including circulating variants—in the future, Dr. Gosenhauser says.
 
This is a bad faith thread is very first sentence is emotional pleading.

If you don't agree with this stupid nonsense then you don't care about 100,000 people in the UK dying. Because miraculously a vaccine passport will bring 100,000 people back to life.
 
As long as there are Vaccine Passports, Flu Shot Passports, IQ Passports, once a year driving test Passports, no Behaviour Disorder Passports, ETC ETC ETC
 
If fighting the virus doesn't give you antibodies to stave it off in the future then how would a vaccine give you antibodies?

If you can get reinfected then the vaccine won't work or you'll have to get it every year and take your chances like we do with the flu vaccine.
 
There are cases of the vaccine not even working for people... who can then get the virus, pass it on to others who might die along with the perp, um, guy who got the virus. Life is not guaranteed ... people need to get the **** over it and stop demanding shit because they are scared little children.
 
Gee... great post. Over the heads of most because it contains common sense.. . but great nonetheless.
 
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