Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom

[Phys251]

Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom | Maria Alvarez

The pandemic is once again causing governments to pit incompatible ideas of freedom against each other, says professor of philosophy Maria Alvarez

www.theguardian.com

The people who have no problem with over 100,000 dead British and 500,000 dead Americans are the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures. Such as businesses' rights to not admit narcissistic anti-vaxxers.

Here's the thing about liberty: It only works in moderation. Unlimited liberty means I can literally do whatever I want to you, and whoever "wins" is decided by brute force. Barbarism. Unlimited liberty is, in practice, no liberty at all. The best liberty is freedom within limits.

There's another aspect to this: Healthcare IS freedom. If you have that vaccine, you're going to get the freedom to more safely do things you haven't gotten to do in over a year. If you have affordable healthcare, you have the freedom to live your life not being one health event away from bankruptcy.

So we see that the actual opponents of freedom are the ones who oppose anti-coronavirus measures, not the sensible people who support them.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom | Maria Alvarez

The pandemic is once again causing governments to pit incompatible ideas of freedom against each other, says professor of philosophy Maria Alvarez

www.theguardian.com

The people who have no problem with over 100,000 dead British and 500,000 dead Americans are the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures. Such as businesses' rights to not admit narcissistic anti-vaxxers.

Here's the thing about liberty: It only works in moderation. Unlimited liberty means I can literally do whatever I want to you, and whoever "wins" is decided by brute force. Barbarism. Unlimited liberty is, in practice, no liberty at all. The best liberty is freedom within limits.

There's another aspect to this: Healthcare IS freedom. If you have that vaccine, you're going to get the freedom to more safely do things you haven't gotten to do in over a year. If you have affordable healthcare, you have the freedom to live your life not being one health event away from bankruptcy.

So we see that the actual opponents of freedom are the ones who oppose anti-coronavirus measures, not the sensible people who support them.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I believe in a "freedom balance" that is more on the "more freedom" side than you do. For that reason, among others, I certainly believe in the freedom of private businesses to deny services to anyone who can get vaccinated, but refuses to do so.

That said, I'm not in favor of any government mandates of any kind to take a vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA, unless perhaps if we give drug companies the freedom to sell other drugs that also haven't been approved by the FDA. Because, what's really the point of FDA approval if people can effectively be forced to take a drug that hasn't got it?

 

[Phys251]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I believe in a "freedom balance" that is more on the "more freedom" side than you do.

That's what someone would say who confuses the x-axis of freedom (lack of restrictions by the government) with the y-axis of freedom (personal freedoms in practice) would say.

For that reason, among others, I certainly believe in the freedom of private businesses to deny services to anyone who can get vaccinated, but refuses to do so.

Some people on your side of the aisle don't believe that, so it's refreshing to see one who does. In fact some people on your side of the aisle have become remarkably hostile towards corporate rights over the last year.

That said, I'm not in favor of any government mandates of any kind to take a vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA, unless perhaps if we give drug companies the freedom to sell other drugs that also haven't been approved by the FDA. Because, what's really the point of FDA approval if people can effectively be forced to take a drug that hasn't got it?

If someone doesn't want to take the vaccine purely on personal grounds, they are welcome to stay home. Nobody who stays home 24/7 should have any vaccine restrictions placed on them.

 

[Noodlegawd]

That's what someone would say who confuses the x-axis of freedom (lack of restrictions by the government) with the y-axis of freedom (personal freedoms in practice) would say.

And it's also what I would say, coincidentally, because it's almost certainly a fact, on the x-axis or the y-axis.

Some people on your side of the aisle

I didn't realize I was on a side of an aisle. What do you reckon puts me on one side of this aisle, as opposed to the other?

If someone doesn't want to take the vaccine purely on personal grounds, they are welcome to stay home. Nobody who stays home 24/7 should have any vaccine restrictions placed on them.

So you place no value on the FDA drug approval process? That's a "refreshing" approach from someone on your side of the aisle. Of course, what you said could also be applied to people who are afraid to go outside if a few people decide not to get vaccinated.

 

[Phys251]

And it's also what I would say, coincidentally, because it's almost certainly a fact, on the x-axis or the y-axis.

I didn't realize I was on a side of an aisle. What do you reckon puts me on one side of this aisle, as opposed to the other?

So you place no value on the FDA drug approval process?

Make a leap any bigger and it could get you across the Grand Canyon!

 

[Noodlegawd]

Make a leap any bigger and it could get you across the Grand Canyon!

You neglected entirely to address the point, and indicated that you essentially want people confined to their homes 24/7 if they are unwilling to take a drug that has not gone through the process. So perhaps you were talking about a very narrow part of the Grand Canyon, because it's not much of a leap at all.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom | Maria Alvarez

The pandemic is once again causing governments to pit incompatible ideas of freedom against each other, says professor of philosophy Maria Alvarez

www.theguardian.com

The people who have no problem with over 100,000 dead British and 500,000 dead Americans are the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures. Such as businesses' rights to not admit narcissistic anti-vaxxers.

Here's the thing about liberty: It only works in moderation. Unlimited liberty means I can literally do whatever I want to you, and whoever "wins" is decided by brute force. Barbarism. Unlimited liberty is, in practice, no liberty at all. The best liberty is freedom within limits.

There's another aspect to this: Healthcare IS freedom. If you have that vaccine, you're going to get the freedom to more safely do things you haven't gotten to do in over a year. If you have affordable healthcare, you have the freedom to live your life not being one health event away from bankruptcy.

So we see that the actual opponents of freedom are the ones who oppose anti-coronavirus measures, not the sensible people who support them.

Freedom to WHAT?
Liberty ... WHAT liberty?

If you're NOT vaccinated, particularly if you refuse to get vaccinated, do you have the freedom and liberty to infect others?
The answer is NO, you do not, and you may very well be convicted of a crime and do time if you do so intentionally.

A Florida woman who coughed in the face of a cancer patient is going to jail, officials say.

The state attorney’s office in Jacksonville, Florida says Debra Hunter, 52, has been sentenced to serve 30 days in prison and six months of probation, take anger management classes, undergo a mental health evaluation, and pay a $500 fine – along with the cost of the victim’s Covid test.

With that in mind, we move to the subject of your freedom to enter places of public accommodation, state and federally owned property and places of employment, engaging in travel, anything that involves excessive contact with the public.
Numerous state public health laws prohibit the movement of infected people and mandatory vaccination is a matter of constitutional interpretation by the Supreme Court and that decision has been repeatedly upheld.

Therefore an instrument that provides proof of vaccination as requirement to engage with the public and use public accommodations is not only legal, it is a sound constitutionally backed idea, and no amount of hastily passed state laws prohibiting such instruments would pass muster if challenged in the SCOTUS.
Not only are states allowed to require such documents, private business owners are even more free to require them as a condition of entry and use.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You neglected entirely to address the point, and indicated that you essentially want people confined to their homes 24/7 if they are unwilling to take a drug that has not gone through the process. So perhaps you were talking about a very narrow part of the Grand Canyon, because it's not much of a leap at all.

The sterilizing immunity studies? That's the only part of "the process" that was truncated, skipped or shunted to the public risk pool.
All safety studies were done. Had they been required to do sterilizing immunity studies it would have delayed availability by another year or more.
So pretending that these vaccines did not get tested is incorrect.

And quarantine rules have repeatedly stood every legal test thrown at them for well over a century.
Mandatory vaccination is also a SCOTUS ruling as well.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Nobody is free to infect me or my family.
And I predict we will soon witness one or more cases where an aggressive anti-vax person gets beaten or worse in response to assaulting someone with their viral particles, and I predict that the courts will rule in favor of the victim, saying that they are within their legal right to use force in response to such attacks, even deadly force if need be.

I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet, but give it time.

 

[Gondwanaland]

the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures.

Seeing you use those words brings to mind people who used those words to describe the '2 weeks to flatten the curve' lockdowns that in some places are still in place over a year later. Turned out, lockdowns didn't really do a single damn thing other than screw over countless small businesses.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Seeing you use those words brings to mind people who used those words to describe the '2 weeks to flatten the curve' lockdowns that in some places are still in place over a year later. Turned out, lockdowns didn't really do a single damn thing other than screw over countless small businesses.

The people who are putting together these passports were specifically thinking of YOU and people LIKE YOU.
Don't bother with your fact free snark, I won't be able to see it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The people who are putting together these passports were specifically thinking of YOU and people LIKE YOU.

I.... already know this. They want to attack anyone that doesn't buy into their garbage.

Don't bother with your fact free snark, I won't be able to see it.

Why, because you ran away and put me on ignore because you can't handle the facts?

 

[Mongidig]

These "freedom" freaks are about to be the least free people in our society. These people have zero common sense. Get your shot, save yourself and save this country. Stop acting like a selfish turd.

 

[Gondwanaland]

These "freedom" freaks are about to be the least free people in our society. These people have zero common sense. Get your shot, save yourself and save this country. Stop acting like a selfish turd.

Go get your shot. If you do, then you shouldn't be worried about me and if I've done the same. Unless the shot doesn't actually work....

 

[Mongidig]

Go get your shot. If you do, then you shouldn't be worried about me and if I've done the same. Unless the shot doesn't actually work....

If enough people don't get the shot this pandemic will persist. I can't imagine anything more stupid then not getting the vaccine unless you have medical reasons not to.

 

[Gondwanaland]

If enough people don't get the shot this pandemic will persist. I can't imagine anything more stupid then not getting the vaccine unless you have medical reasons not to.

If it persists it will only do so among those without shots (if the shots work.....). So why do you care, if you get the shot, you're just fine. And me and my 99+% survival rate is just fine too

 

[snakestretcher]

Seeing you use those words brings to mind people who used those words to describe the '2 weeks to flatten the curve' lockdowns that in some places are still in place over a year later. Turned out, lockdowns didn't really do a single damn thing other than screw over countless small businesses.

Lockdowns work if people observe them. Look at the extraordinary success of South East Asian nations for example.

What’s the secret to Southeast Asia’s Covid success stories?

There is no secret.

www.lowyinstitute.org

The lessons from East Asia's coronavirus successes

Japan and its neighbors have largely fared better than the West during the COVID-19 pandemic, and now have a duty to pass on their knowledge.

www.japantimes.co.jp

What’s Behind Mainland Southeast Asia’s Surprising Success Against COVID-19

With the exception of Thailand, the five countries of mainland Southeast Asia are some of the poorest in the Asia-Pacific region. According to the World Bank, Cambodia has a per capita GDP of around $1,600, while Myanmar’s is roughly $1,400. Laos and Vietnam fare only marginally better, each at...

www.worldpoliticsreview.com

Idiots whining about 'freedom' and rights being 'violated', refusing to wear masks or avoiding gatherings, is why the US has fared so poorly; that and the lack of a national Covid strategy. Leaving it up to individual states to deal with the pandemic was asking for trouble-and you got it.

 

[Mongidig]

If it persists it will only do so among those without shots (if the shots work.....). So why do you care, if you get the shot, you're just fine. And me and my 99+% survival rate is just fine too

You sound like a Trump imfomercial.

The longer this goes the more opportunity for the virus to mutate into one that is resistant to vaccines.

 

[Phys251]

Seeing you use those words brings to mind people who used those words to describe the '2 weeks to flatten the curve' lockdowns that in some places are still in place over a year later. Turned out, lockdowns didn't really do a single damn thing other than screw over countless small businesses.

^ How cute. Someone who has repeatedly denied science and has no problem with 500,000 dead Americans thinks his ignorance holds literally any value.

 

[Ethel2]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I believe in a "freedom balance" that is more on the "more freedom" side than you do. For that reason, among others, I certainly believe in the freedom of private businesses to deny services to anyone who can get vaccinated, but refuses to do so.

That said, I'm not in favor of any government mandates of any kind to take a vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA, unless perhaps if we give drug companies the freedom to sell other drugs that also haven't been approved by the FDA. Because, what's really the point of FDA approval if people can effectively be forced to take a drug that hasn't got it?

This is pretty much what I think too. Businesses should have the right to serve anyone they want within current antidiscrimination laws. Once the FDA grants full approval for the existing vaccines the dam will break and many many more businesses will choose to create a safe environment for their customers and for their staff.
The only place where it is appropriate IMO for government to mandate vaccines is for the military. We cannot have covid running wild through the ranks of our armed forces. After full approval is granted I think that all military people should be required to get a shot unless there is a medical reason for them not to do so.

 

[Ethel2]

Go get your shot. If you do, then you shouldn't be worried about me and if I've done the same. Unless the shot doesn't actually work....

Its not just about YOU. Thats a major issue with conservatives: its AWAYS just about THEM. Well, it isn't. You have a social responsibility to get vaccinated for a couple of reasons: first, there are people out there who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, and they deserve to be protected from YOU. Second, the more people who do not get vaccinated the higher the risk of an escape variant appearing, one for which existing shots do not work.
Just do the right thing and get the damn shot.

 

[minnie616]

Go get your shot. If you do, then you shouldn't be worried about me and if I've done the same. Unless the shot doesn't actually work....

Vaccine passports will make it much easier for anyone who wishes to travel or Attard an event.


Vaccine passports could be used for travel or events instead of having to have a negative Covid 19 test taken within 3 days of the event.

Showing a passport is much easier than having a nasal swab test done each time to wish to go somewhere.

My daughter’s doctor requires a Covid negative swab test with in 3 days before her appointment.

She just had her first shot and can’t wait for her second so she no longer needs the swab test.

 

[Noodlegawd]

This is pretty much what I think too. Businesses should have the right to serve anyone they want within current antidiscrimination laws. Once the FDA grants full approval for the existing vaccines the dam will break and many many more businesses will choose to create a safe environment for their customers and for their staff.
The only place where it is appropriate IMO for government to mandate vaccines is for the military. We cannot have covid running wild through the ranks of our armed forces. After full approval is granted I think that all military people should be required to get a shot unless there is a medical reason for them not to do so.

Interestingly, I believe that even the military isn't mandating these vaccines yet, because they're not FDA approved.

Nearly 40% of Marines decline COVID-19 vaccine, prompting some Democrats to urge Biden to set mandate for military

Nearly 40% of U.S. Marines offered the COVID-19 vaccine have refused it, the Pentagon says. Some lawmakers have suggested a mandate for the military.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Ethel2]

Interestingly, I believe that even the military isn't mandating these vaccines yet, because they're not FDA approved.

Nearly 40% of Marines decline COVID-19 vaccine, prompting some Democrats to urge Biden to set mandate for military

Nearly 40% of U.S. Marines offered the COVID-19 vaccine have refused it, the Pentagon says. Some lawmakers have suggested a mandate for the military.

www.usatoday.com

I totally get that attitude (waiting for full approval for mandating vaccines). I don’t blame them at all. Approval is on the horizon.

 

[Noodlegawd]

I totally get that attitude (waiting for full approval for mandating vaccines). I don’t blame them at all. Approval is on the horizon.

Let's hope. It will take away one more reason people cite to avoid it. Another reason (difficult to get appointments) is not going to be an issue for much longer.