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Arctic Ocean and Greenland ice sheet see record June melting

Dick Tornado said:
It is odd you quote a book which hails the public being denied the truth and therefore becoming convinced that the only truth is what the state feeds them. That scientific, personal or creating thought is to be looked down upon and denying fact based realities is normal.

The East Hawaiian Island is one of the newest islands in the chain and is being formed by volcanic upheaval. It is directly above a tectonic seam and was projected to reappear as it is being pushed up from beneath. All the Hawaiian Islands owe their land mass to this effect.


The hurricane that pushed the sands off the East island is not the same effect as an island being inundated by rising sea levels.
Click to expand...

Why did you edit away the rest of the post? This always confuses me. There is no possible reason for editing that does not include changing the meaning of the post quoted.

You have posted the reason for the disappearance and reappearance of this island. The simple fact of the matter is that in nature, there is almost nothing that exists free of influence from other things.

Glaciers, for instance, are heavy. They actually depress the land on which they sit or slide. When they start to melt decreasing the weight, the surface of the top of the ice may rise as the thickness of the ice decreases.

Water levels in the ocean are not all at the same "sea level" as there are high spots and low spots in the oceans revealed by satellite measurements. Tidal influences are different than this phenomenon.

Islands, as you noted, both rise and fall relative to the local sea level and due to tectonic and geologic influences.

Observing one outcome absent all of the information is a good way to arrive at a wrong set of ideas and courses of action.

In nature, especially for laymen like me, all of the information is hardly ever available. Worshipping the CO2 God and sacrificing comfort to gain favor seems to be one of the preferred options lately.

Cautious action guided by wisdom based on experience seems to be a prudent way to proceed in most situations.

As an example, most of today's glaciers are equal to or greater than levels prevailing 7000 years ago. CO2 ppm was vastly lower 7000 years ago.

If the same effect is observed absent the proposed cause, perhaps accepting the proposed cause as the "cause to address" is not justified.

Just sayin'...
 
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PoS said:
You made the claim, so you ought to back it up. Thats basic debating 101. The fact that you claimed the Maldvies was already sunk when its still around shows you arent very honest.


Your first link is about uninhabited islands. The second one is pure hyperbole and is short on facts. The third doesnt really say anything.
Click to expand...
It also does not help when the claim is not supported by the data.
Monthly sea levels for SOLOMON ISLANDS
Maximum recorded level of 1.366 metres at 1748 hours 08/05/2008
Click to expand...
 
code1211 said:
Why did you edit away the rest of the post? This always confuses me. There is no possible reason for editing that does not include changing the meaning of the post quoted.

You have posted the reason for the disappearance and reappearance of this island. The simple fact of the matter is that in nature, there is almost nothing that exists free of influence from other things.

Glaciers, for instance, are heavy. They actually depress the land on which they sit or slide. When they start to melt decreasing the weight, the surface of the top of the ice may rise as the thickness of the ice decreases.

Water levels in the ocean are not all at the same "sea level" as there are high spots and low spots in the oceans revealed by satellite measurements. Tidal influences are different than this phenomenon.

Islands, as you noted, both rise and fall relative to the local sea level and due to tectonic and geologic influences.

Observing one outcome absent all of the information is a good way to arrive at a wrong set of ideas and courses of action.

In nature, especially for laymen like me, all of the information is hardly ever available. Worshipping the CO2 God and sacrificing comfort to gain favor seems to be one of the preferred options lately.

Cautious action guided by wisdom based on experience seems to be a prudent way to proceed in most situations.

As an example, most of today's glaciers are equal to or greater than levels prevailing 7000 years ago. CO2 ppm was vastly lower 7000 years ago.

If the same effect is observed absent the proposed cause, perhaps accepting the proposed cause as the "cause to address" is not justified.

Just sayin'...
Click to expand...

One word: dishonesty.
 
Dick Tornado said:
The Republic of Maldives, in the Indian Ocean, consists of 1,190 islands. With no ground surface higher than 9.9 feet (3 meters), and 80 percent of the land area lying below 3.3 feet (1 meter) above average sea level, the Maldives is the flattest country on Earth. The lack of topography in the Maldives makes it one of the nations most vulnerable to rising sea level and coastal flooding.

Housing and critical infrastructure in the Maldives, including five airports and 128 harbors, are concentrated along coastlines. Since the 1950s, sea level in and around the Maldives has been rising at a rate of 0.03–0.06 inches (0.8–1.6 millimeters) per year. Because of the Maldivian topography, small changes in sea level translate into extensive land inundation. More than 90 of the inhabited Maldives islands now experience annual flooding. A series of swells forced the evacuation of more than 1,600 people from their homes and damaged more than 500 housing units which have been relocated.

An average rise of 0.13 inch (3.3 millimeters) per year has been traced from 1993 to 2008 which points to the pace of sea level rise is accelerating. Migration is has become the main potential solution for Maldivians. In November 2008, the president of the Maldives announced the country would attempt to buy a new homeland and move the entire population.
Click to expand...

Even without man's contribution, the sea level rises. This is a natural thing to happen. You guys make it sound as if we are responsible for all of it, when you cannot even prove we have equalized out of the last ice age.
 
PoS said:
You made the claim, so you ought to back it up. Thats basic debating 101. The fact that you claimed the Maldvies was already sunk when its still around shows you arent very honest.


Your first link is about uninhabited islands. The second one is pure hyperbole and is short on facts. The third doesnt really say anything.
Click to expand...

I can see why DT wasn't interested in answering you.
 
Tim the plumber said:


Arizona has a weather pattern, a climate, that is fairly variable. It always has been. And too much? Not just an improvement which will, if it keeps up, be a good thing?
Click to expand...

No. We have next to no ground cover. Too much rain means what little soil we have washes away...And the parts that *do* bloom become tinderboxes, and the entire state burns down.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Even without man's contribution, the sea level rises. This is a natural thing to happen. You guys make it sound as if we are responsible for all of it, when you cannot even prove we have equalized out of the last ice age.
Click to expand...

Apply the same "logic" to yourself.

To simplify, whether we are the cause or not, to ignore the issue shows stupidity.

If a bear comes down from the mountains and enters your home, who the F**k cares why its there.

Your saying we should just roll over and go back to bed. That is how you get bear raped.
 
Dick Tornado said:
Apply the same "logic" to yourself.

To simplify, whether we are the cause or not, to ignore the issue shows stupidity.

If a bear comes down from the mountains and enters your home, who the F**k cares why its there.

Your saying we should just roll over and go back to bed. That is how you get bear raped.
Click to expand...

The bear is imaginary.
 
PoS said:
One word: dishonesty.
Click to expand...

Published In The NAVY TIMES
July 2016
By: Meghann Myers

Your Navy
Rising oceans threaten to submerge 128 military bases: report

Rising oceans will swallow parts of the world's biggest naval base by the end of the century, according to experts who warn that it will take billions of dollars in upgrades to prepare these facilities.

Naval Station Norfolk in Virginia and 17 other U.S. military installations sitting on waterfront property are looking at hundreds of floods a year and in some cases could be mostly submerged by 2100, according to a new report from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Based on these calculations, the report says a three-foot sea level rise would threaten 128 U.S. military bases, valued at roughly $100 billion.

Nine of those bases are major hubs for the Navy: In addition to Norfolk, flooding threatens Naval Station Mayport, Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay in Georgia and the Naval Academy in Maryland, where 2003's Hurricane Isabel flooded classrooms, dormitories and athletic facilities.

It's not just the Navy. Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island is at risk of being completely underwater. All told, three Marine Corps installations, two joint bases, an Air Force base and a Coast Guard Station are also at risk of daily flooding, the report said.

Some installations, including those in the Hampton Roads, Virginia, area, already have measures in place to protect against storm surges, study authors told Navy Times.
 
Media_Truth said:
Look - it's a BLOG post!
Click to expand...

Oh my you who hypocritically link to … he he… ha ha.... blogs complain about THIS one:

The one that used DMI sea Ice data to generate this chart:

DMI Kyre.jpg

Really you should drop your silly biases and either contribute to a debate or …… :3oops:

Masie and SII show very similar values, which means that for now it is about a flat trend since 2006.
 
Tim the plumber said:
How much smaller than the North Atlantic conveyor do you think the entire melt in summer off Greenland is? What do you think the ratio is?

Do you understand that the ocean current is driven by the wind. The wind will continue to blow.
Click to expand...

The oceans current is not wind driven. Only surface tides.

The North Atlantic Conveyor is driven by the heating and cooling of the sea water which through convection creates a flow in the sea waters.

When smoke goes up a chimney it isn't because wind blowing across the top of the chimney sucks it out.

It is because of the convection effect that heat rises and the smoke is pulled along with the heat.

A tank of water connected to another tank of water will be static. If you pour a gallon of cold water in one tank and a gallon of the same water temp in the other, they are equal in volume.

If the cold water has food coloring in it you can watch it migrate towards the other tank via convection influences not wind. (Kids Science, Bill Nye The Science Guy, 1st Grader Video)
 
Tim the plumber said:
Please link to that study.
Click to expand...

Journal of Coastal Conservation
December 2017, Volume 21, Issue 6, pp 719–730 |

Acknowledgments
The Government of the Federated States of Micronesia endorsed the research on which this study is based. PN and RK were funded by the Faculty of Arts and Business at the University of the Sunshine Coast. Kalahngan to our many friends on Pohnpei especially Jerry Martin, Allois Malfitani (Pohnpei Surf Club), and Ertin Poll (Kehpara Island). Petra Nunn helped in numerous ways.

Added References:

Becker M, Meyssignac B, Letetrel C, Llovel W, Cazenave A, Delcroix T (2012) Sea level variations at tropical Pacific islands since 1950. Glob Planet Change 80–81:85–98. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2011.09.004
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Bloom AL (1970) Holocene submergence in Micronesia as the standard for eustatic sea-level changes. Quaternaria 12:145–154
Google Scholar
BOM (2011) Climate Change in the Pacific: Scientific Assessment and New Research. Bureau of Meteorology (BOM)/CSIRO, Melbourne, pp 273
Google Scholar
Chang YT, Du L, Zhang SW, Huang PF (2013) Sea level variations in the tropical Pacific Ocean during two types of recent El Nino events. Glob Planet Change 108:119–127. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2013.06.001

Church JA, Clark PU, Cazenave A, Gregory JM, Jevrejeva S, Levermann A, Merrifield MA, Milne GA, Nerem RS, Nunn PD, Payne AJ, Pfeffer WT, Stammer D, Unnikrishnan AS (2013) Sea level change. In: Stocker TF et al (eds) Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis. Working Group I Contribution to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp 1137–1308
Google Scholar
Di Nitto D, Neukermans G, Koedam N, Defever H, Pattyn F, Kairo JG, Dahdouh-Guebas F (2014) Mangroves facing climate change: landward migration potential in response to projected scenarios of sea level rise. Biogeosciences 11:857–871. doi: 10.5194/bg-11-857-2014
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Dickinson WR (2000) Hydro-isostatic and tectonic influences on emergent Holocene paleoshorelines in the Mariana Islands, western Pacific Ocean. J Coast Res 16:735–746
Google Scholar
Dickinson WR (2001) Paleoshoreline record of relative Holocene sea levels on Pacific islands. Earth Sci Rev 55:191–234. doi: 10.1016/s0012-8252(01)00063-0
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Dixon TH, Batiza R, Futa K, Martin D (1984) Petrochemistry, age and isotopic composition of alkali basalts from Ponape Island, western Pacific. Chem Geol 43:1–28
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Drexler JZ, Ewel KC (2001) Effect of the 1997-1998 ENSO-related drought on hydrology and salinity in a Micronesian wetland complex. Estuaries 24:347–356. doi: 10.2307/1353237
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
FAO (2008) Climate change and food security in Pacific Island countries. Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, Rome
Google Scholar
Fletcher C, Richmond B (2010) Climate change in the Federated States of Micronesia: food and water security, climate risk management, and adaptive strategies. Center for Island Climate Adaptation and Policy (ICAP). University of Hawai'i Sea Grant College Program, Honolulu, p 68
Google Scholar
Ford M (2011) Shoreline changes on an urban atoll in the Central Pacific Ocean: Majuro atoll. Marshall Islands. Journal of Coastal Research:11–22. doi: 10.2112/jcoastres-d-11-00008.1

Fujimoto K, Tabuchi R, Mori T, Murofushi T (1995) Site environments and stand structure of the mangrove forests on Pohnpei Island, Micronesia. Jarq-Japan Agricultural Research Quarterly 29:275–284
Google Scholar
Golbuu YM, Fabricius K, Victor S, Richmond RH (2008) Gradients in coral reef communities exposed to muddy river discharge in Pohnpei, Micronesia. Estuar Coast Shelf Sci 76:14–20. doi: 10.1016/j.ecss.2007.06.005
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Hanlon D (1988) Upon A Stone Altar: A History of the Island of Pohnpei to 1890. University of Hawaii Press, Honolulu
Google Scholar
Hoeke RK, McInnes KL, Kruger JC, McNaught RJ, Hunter JR, Smithers SG (2013) Widespread inundation of Pacific islands triggered by distant-source wind-waves. Glob Planet Change 108:128–138. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2013.06.006
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Houser C, D'Ambrosio T, Bouchard C, Heyman W, Darbonne K, Kuykendall S (2014) Erosion and reorientation of the Sapodilla cays, Mesoamerican reef Belize from 1960 to 2012. Phys Geogr 35:335–354. doi: 10.1080/02723646.2014.913932
 
Hamish Howl said:
I can see why DT wasn't interested in answering you.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Im asking for facts. Something which he doesnt have.

Dick Tornado said:
Published In The NAVY TIMES
July 2016
By: Meghann Myers

Your Navy
Rising oceans threaten to submerge 128 military bases: report

Rising oceans will swallow parts of the world's biggest naval base by the end of the century, according to experts who warn that it will take billions of dollars in upgrades to prepare these facilities.

Naval Station Norfolk in Virginia and 17 other U.S. military installations sitting on waterfront property are looking at hundreds of floods a year and in some cases could be mostly submerged by 2100, according to a new report from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Based on these calculations, the report says a three-foot sea level rise would threaten 128 U.S. military bases, valued at roughly $100 billion.

Nine of those bases are major hubs for the Navy: In addition to Norfolk, flooding threatens Naval Station Mayport, Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay in Georgia and the Naval Academy in Maryland, where 2003's Hurricane Isabel flooded classrooms, dormitories and athletic facilities.

It's not just the Navy. Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island is at risk of being completely underwater. All told, three Marine Corps installations, two joint bases, an Air Force base and a Coast Guard Station are also at risk of daily flooding, the report said.

Some installations, including those in the Hampton Roads, Virginia, area, already have measures in place to protect against storm surges, study authors told Navy Times.
Click to expand...

How about a link to an actual article instead of a copy and paste job. And where is the proof that this is linked to man-made AGW?
 
Hamish Howl said:
No. We have next to no ground cover. Too much rain means what little soil we have washes away...And the parts that *do* bloom become tinderboxes, and the entire state burns down.
Click to expand...

Normally a very dry climate is a bad thing. Having increased rainfall, if it remains, is a good thing.

The world changes. You can cope with this as you always have.
 
Dick Tornado said:
Apply the same "logic" to yourself.

To simplify, whether we are the cause or not, to ignore the issue shows stupidity.

If a bear comes down from the mountains and enters your home, who the F**k cares why its there.

Your saying we should just roll over and go back to bed. That is how you get bear raped.
Click to expand...

Good analogy. But what should you do if it is a shrew?

Seriously, where is the bad thing? What do you see as the worst aspect of a slightly warmer world?
 
Dick Tornado said:
The oceans current is not wind driven. Only surface tides.
Click to expand...

I despair of the education systems of the world. The tides are gravity driven by the Moon and Sun.

Currents are, mostly, wind driven and the North Atlantic Conveyor especially so. The winds from the Florida/Cuba gap to Norway are basically Westerlies which blow hard on the surface of the ocean.

The North Atlantic Conveyor is driven by the heating and cooling of the sea water which through convection creates a flow in the sea waters.
Click to expand...

If the top 700m of the water column is so effected then the pressure difference between the sea at a low temperature and a high temperature is nil as the surface level will change very slightly due to the 10c or so difference.

Consider a 1m wide strip of surface water from Florida to Ireland. 5,000km or so. If each square meter has the force of the weight of 1kg across it (it is loads more than that, imagine holding a 1m2 flag just above the water in the North Atlantic, which is mostly blowing a gale) then the combined force at Ireland is enough to push the water up a 5km high slope if it was so confined. Basic stuff but the Green/communist movement does not like numbers.

When smoke goes up a chimney it isn't because wind blowing across the top of the chimney sucks it out.

It is because of the convection effect that heat rises and the smoke is pulled along with the heat.
Click to expand...

Yes. It s easy to work out the pressure difference as well.

A tank of water connected to another tank of water will be static. If you pour a gallon of cold water in one tank and a gallon of the same water temp in the other, they are equal in volume.

If the cold water has food coloring in it you can watch it migrate towards the other tank via convection influences not wind. (Kids Science, Bill Nye The Science Guy, 1st Grader Video)
Click to expand...

Yes. keep thinking about this stuff.
 
Dick Tornado said:
Journal of Coastal Conservation
December 2017, Volume 21, Issue 6, pp 719–730 |

Acknowledgments
The Government of the Federated States of Micronesia endorsed the research on which this study is based. PN and RK were funded by the Faculty of Arts and Business at the University of the Sunshine Coast. Kalahngan to our many friends on Pohnpei especially Jerry Martin, Allois Malfitani (Pohnpei Surf Club), and Ertin Poll (Kehpara Island). Petra Nunn helped in numerous ways.

Added References:

Becker M, Meyssignac B, Letetrel C, Llovel W, Cazenave A, Delcroix T (2012) Sea level variations at tropical Pacific islands since 1950. Glob Planet Change 80–81:85–98. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2011.09.004
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Bloom AL (1970) Holocene submergence in Micronesia as the standard for eustatic sea-level changes. Quaternaria 12:145–154
Google Scholar
BOM (2011) Climate Change in the Pacific: Scientific Assessment and New Research. Bureau of Meteorology (BOM)/CSIRO, Melbourne, pp 273
Google Scholar
Chang YT, Du L, Zhang SW, Huang PF (2013) Sea level variations in the tropical Pacific Ocean during two types of recent El Nino events. Glob Planet Change 108:119–127. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2013.06.001

Church JA, Clark PU, Cazenave A, Gregory JM, Jevrejeva S, Levermann A, Merrifield MA, Milne GA, Nerem RS, Nunn PD, Payne AJ, Pfeffer WT, Stammer D, Unnikrishnan AS (2013) Sea level change. In: Stocker TF et al (eds) Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis. Working Group I Contribution to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp 1137–1308
Google Scholar
Di Nitto D, Neukermans G, Koedam N, Defever H, Pattyn F, Kairo JG, Dahdouh-Guebas F (2014) Mangroves facing climate change: landward migration potential in response to projected scenarios of sea level rise. Biogeosciences 11:857–871. doi: 10.5194/bg-11-857-2014
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Dickinson WR (2000) Hydro-isostatic and tectonic influences on emergent Holocene paleoshorelines in the Mariana Islands, western Pacific Ocean. J Coast Res 16:735–746
Google Scholar
Dickinson WR (2001) Paleoshoreline record of relative Holocene sea levels on Pacific islands. Earth Sci Rev 55:191–234. doi: 10.1016/s0012-8252(01)00063-0
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Dixon TH, Batiza R, Futa K, Martin D (1984) Petrochemistry, age and isotopic composition of alkali basalts from Ponape Island, western Pacific. Chem Geol 43:1–28
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Drexler JZ, Ewel KC (2001) Effect of the 1997-1998 ENSO-related drought on hydrology and salinity in a Micronesian wetland complex. Estuaries 24:347–356. doi: 10.2307/1353237
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
FAO (2008) Climate change and food security in Pacific Island countries. Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, Rome
Google Scholar
Fletcher C, Richmond B (2010) Climate change in the Federated States of Micronesia: food and water security, climate risk management, and adaptive strategies. Center for Island Climate Adaptation and Policy (ICAP). University of Hawai'i Sea Grant College Program, Honolulu, p 68
Google Scholar
Ford M (2011) Shoreline changes on an urban atoll in the Central Pacific Ocean: Majuro atoll. Marshall Islands. Journal of Coastal Research:11–22. doi: 10.2112/jcoastres-d-11-00008.1

Fujimoto K, Tabuchi R, Mori T, Murofushi T (1995) Site environments and stand structure of the mangrove forests on Pohnpei Island, Micronesia. Jarq-Japan Agricultural Research Quarterly 29:275–284
Google Scholar
Golbuu YM, Fabricius K, Victor S, Richmond RH (2008) Gradients in coral reef communities exposed to muddy river discharge in Pohnpei, Micronesia. Estuar Coast Shelf Sci 76:14–20. doi: 10.1016/j.ecss.2007.06.005
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Hanlon D (1988) Upon A Stone Altar: A History of the Island of Pohnpei to 1890. University of Hawaii Press, Honolulu
Google Scholar
Hoeke RK, McInnes KL, Kruger JC, McNaught RJ, Hunter JR, Smithers SG (2013) Widespread inundation of Pacific islands triggered by distant-source wind-waves. Glob Planet Change 108:128–138. doi: 10.1016/j.gloplacha.2013.06.006
CrossRefGoogle Scholar
Houser C, D'Ambrosio T, Bouchard C, Heyman W, Darbonne K, Kuykendall S (2014) Erosion and reorientation of the Sapodilla cays, Mesoamerican reef Belize from 1960 to 2012. Phys Geogr 35:335–354. doi: 10.1080/02723646.2014.913932
Click to expand...

Link to it!!!!
 
Tim the plumber said:
Link to it!!!!
Click to expand...

Here you go:

Identifying and assessing evidence for recent shoreline change attributable to uncommonly rapid sea-level rise in Pohnpei, Federated States of Micronesia, Northwest Pacific Ocean

Abstract:

"Those parts of the northwest Pacific Ocean where sea level has been rising fastest over the past few decades include islands in the Federated States of Micronesia. To understand the possible effects of rapid sea-level rise, coastal surveys were undertaken within Pohnpei State in October 2014. The high volcanic island of Pohnpei was targeted along with 10 reef-edge island groups on its surrounding barrier reef as well as islands on Ant Atoll, 15 km southwest. Evidence of shoreline erosion attributable to sea-level rise is found only in a few places along the main island’s northeast (windward) coast. High rainfall has led to the accumulation of terrestrial sediment along the coast that is covered with mangrove forest 2–3 km broad in places shielding the island’s coast from wave erosion. A different picture is found on reef-edge islands around which erosion over the last few decades can mostly be explained by recent sea-level rise. Islands have disappeared within living memory, others drastically reduced in size in the past decade, while others – their sand cover washed away – are being reduced to a skeletal (boulders anchored by mangrove) state. The coasts of Ant Atoll appear little affected by erosion ascribable to sea-level rise. In summary, fewer effects than might be expected from recent sea-level rise were seen in Pohnpei, largely for reasons of natural coastal resilience or a lack of record, especially for reef-edge islands. The importance of mangrove conservation and an understanding of sediment dynamics on the broad reef-lagoon shelf surrounding the main island is manifest."
 
Seeing the persistence of denial of the obvious is hilarious.
 
Dick Tornado said:
Make a believer that excess CO2 isn't an issue.

Put your head in a plastic bag and breath deep.

If CO2 doesn't effect you personally you will be fine, if not then, R.I.P.
Click to expand...

When confronted by facts, you resort to whatever it is you just posted?

Wow! Are you currently conducting your deep breath, plastic bag experiment?

Given the diminishing impact of the incremental increases of CO2 as the ppm rise, asphyxiation is a greater concern than climate change. Maybe your plastic bag will be good training.

https://www.ecoenclose.com/blog/suf...kaging-requirements-legal-guidelines-to-know/

 
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