Archbishop calls the Pope "an agent of Satan". Likely to be defrocked. (1 Viewer)

[ColdHardTruth]

Another member of the Catholic clergy is likely on his was out.

MSN

 

[nota bene]

Thanks for the heads-up, I guess; I know now to expect a blizzard of group e-mails from my Catholic philosopher/theologian friend, sigh.

If the intent of this thread is more than the usual "Gotcha!" Catholic-bashing thread, I'll post some of the links he will surely send us. In the meantime, I've Googled, and here is a part of the backdrop. From August 2018:

Letters from Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, written in early 2011 but published that month by an Italian television station, became the origins of the so-called "Vatileaks" scandal.

This and other controversies that have enwrapped the 77-year-old prelate in recent years echo in the release and reaction to the publication Aug. 26 of an 11-page letter from Vigano that accuses dozens of high-level church officials of a cover-up surrounding sexual abuse allegations against former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, including that Pope Francis ignored those claims and knew of sanctions against him. In the letter, Vigano called for Francis to resign.

That an archbishop made such public accusations against a sitting pope, as well as a pope emeritus in Benedict XVI, is unprecedented in the modern church, said Massimo Faggioli, a theologian and church historian at Villanova University. For a similar situation, you'd have to go back to the 15th century, the close of the Middle Ages.

"This is something I don't remember in the last four, five, six centuries," he told NCR. https://www.ncronline.org/news/who-archbishop-carlo-maria-vigano

 

[EdwinWillers]

Archbishop calls the Pope "an agent of Satan"​

Well I guess if the shoe fits?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Archbishop calls the Pope "an agent of Satan"​

Well I guess if the shoe fits?

I just cannot see this going over well for that Archbishop.

 

[EdwinWillers]

I just cannot see this going over well for that Archbishop.

Probably not. Bosses tend to frown on subordinates who call them an agent of Satan.

On the other hand, as @nota bene posted, there does seem to be some background to all this that goes beyond one archbishop's opinions. Who knows but that it may be shared by many more?

 

[nota bene]

Archbishop calls the Pope "an agent of Satan"​

Well I guess if the shoe fits?

This is far above our paygrades, but I will be curious to see what comes of this throwing down of another gauntlet. I hesitate to use the "s-word," but I'm thinking about what the Methodist denomination is experiencing now (and Episcopalians did in the '90's).

My concern is not for any one denom but, rather, for the Body of Christ itself. I mean, we all know who loves dissension among the brethren.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Probably not. Bosses tend to frown on subordinates who call them an agent of Satan.

On the other hand, as @nota bene posted, there does seem to be some background to all this that goes beyond one archbishop's opinions. Who knows but that it may be shared by many more?

Maybe not, but if you call the boss the devil, getting fired is the norm.

 

[EdwinWillers]

This is far above our paygrades, but I will be curious to see what comes of this throwing down of another gauntlet. I hesitate to use the "s-word," but I'm thinking about what the Methodist denomination is experiencing now (and Episcopalians did in the '90's).

My concern is not for any one denom but, rather, for the Body of Christ itself. I mean, we all know who loves dissension among the brethren.

Well said.

 

[nota bene]

I just cannot see this going over well for that Archbishop.

He is no stranger to controversy:

Carlo Maria Viganò (Italian pronunciation: [vigaˈnɔ]; born 16 January 1941) is a bishop of the Catholic Church who served as the Apostolic Nuncio to the United States 2011 to 2016. He previously served as secretary-general of the Governorate of Vatican City State from 2009 to 2011. He is best known for having publicized two major Vatican scandals. These were the Vatican leaks scandal of 2012, in which he revealed financial corruption in the Vatican, and a 2018 letter in which he accused Pope Francis and other Catholic Church leaders of covering up sexual abuse allegations against former cardinal Theodore McCarrick.

Since 2018, Viganò manifested himself as an outspoken critic of Pope Francis and as a spreader of conspiracy theories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Viganò

 

[EdwinWillers]

Maybe not, but if you call the boss the devil, getting fired is the norm.

True.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

He is no stranger to controversy:

Carlo Maria Viganò (Italian pronunciation: [vigaˈnɔ]; born 16 January 1941) is a bishop of the Catholic Church who served as the Apostolic Nuncio to the United States 2011 to 2016. He previously served as secretary-general of the Governorate of Vatican City State from 2009 to 2011. He is best known for having publicized two major Vatican scandals. These were the Vatican leaks scandal of 2012, in which he revealed financial corruption in the Vatican, and a 2018 letter in which he accused Pope Francis and other Catholic Church leaders of covering up sexual abuse allegations against former cardinal Theodore McCarrick.

Since 2018, Viganò manifested himself as an outspoken critic of Pope Francis and as a spreader of conspiracy theories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Viganò

I wonder how much the Pope will take from Vigano before he lays the smack down.

We live in frightening times.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Thanks for the heads-up, I guess; I know now to expect a blizzard of group e-mails from my Catholic philosopher/theologian friend, sigh.

 

[nota bene]

Probably not. Bosses tend to frown on subordinates who call them an agent of Satan.

On the other hand, as @nota bene posted, there does seem to be some background to all this that goes beyond one archbishop's opinions. Who knows but that it may be shared by many more?

My philosopher friend said something just ever so slightly critical of Pope Francis--hmmm, he referred to him as "Francis," so I guess if he can, I can--and this did surprise me. He has previously been more careful. Guess I'm going to e-mail him now. He's probably been discussing this for days with his cleric friends. I'm just hoping he's not going to go on an e-mail spree, sigh. If he does, there will be some good links from sources with which most of us are unfamiliar. I just delete a lot of his e-mails without reading them unless others in the group reply because at the links are text that make me work and hurt my pretty little head.

 

[EdwinWillers]

My philosopher friend said something just ever so slightly critical of Pope Francis--hmmm, he referred to him as "Francis," so I guess if he can, I can--and this did surprise me. He has previously been more careful. Guess I'm going to e-mail him now. He's probably been discussing this for days with his cleric friends. I'm just hoping he's not going to go on an e-mail spree, sigh. If he does, there will be some good links from sources with which most of us are unfamiliar. I just delete a lot of his e-mails without reading them unless others in the group reply because at the links are text that make me work and hurt my pretty little head.

It'd be interesting to see what transpires. My wife's family is staunch catholic - but they never discuss anything involving their church, or church leadership, good or bad.

 

[nota bene]

I wonder how much the Pope will take from Vigano before he lays the smack down.

We live in frightening times.

Yes, we truly do. (I wonder, however, if every generation of humankind has also said this.) I choose to try not to think about the possibility of an EMP attack or a bioweapon of mass destruction being released into the wild or another mass shooting. But this is an internecine conflict that I don't suppose is terribly relevant to non-Catholics. Perhaps I'm mistaken? Is it fair to suggest that whether one is religious or not, the Pope is a global figure with a great deal of soft power?

 

[nota bene]

I couple of years ago I was so pissed off that I counted: 27. And pointedly refer on occasion to this Saturday night epic spree. I can't tell you how arcane some of his crap is. Unless, of course, you dig reading meaty philosophical arguments and analyses of these. (My middle name, which you already know, is dilettante.)

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Yes, we truly do. (I wonder, however, if every generation of humankind has also said this.) I choose to try not to think about the possibility of an EMP attack or a bioweapon of mass destruction being released into the wild or another mass shooting. But this is an internecine conflict that I don't suppose is terribly relevant to non-Catholics. Perhaps I'm mistaken? Is it fair to suggest that whether one is religious or not, the Pope is a global figure with a great deal of soft power?

Agreed.

As a child, I went to a catholic school. I grew up with friends who are Catholics, one of who is now a Catholic priest in the parish where he grew up.

I also try to avoid thinking about what could happen and I choose to live in the moment.

 

[Crakhobarbie]

I don't suppose is terribly relevant to non-Catholics. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

It is relevant in as much as it shows nonbelievers that there are some voices of reason in the church.
I support "Frances" in this fight.

 

[Goshin]

Yes, we truly do. (I wonder, however, if every generation of humankind has also said this.) I choose to try not to think about the possibility of an EMP attack or a bioweapon of mass destruction being released into the wild or another mass shooting. But this is an internecine conflict that I don't suppose is terribly relevant to non-Catholics. Perhaps I'm mistaken? Is it fair to suggest that whether one is religious or not, the Pope is a global figure with a great deal of soft power?

I am Baptist (more or less), and live in a part of the country where "evangelical" churches are the rule and Catholics are a bit thin on the ground.

I'd say that the attention paid to the Pope, hereabouts and in general, is probably far less than in areas that are predominantly Catholic. He is known, obviously, and the bigger news items are sometimes commented upon (some of his more surprising pronouncements anyway). I wouldn't say that he is viewed as a "leader of the Christian world" by non-Catholics, at least in this region.

My youngest niece is Methodist, perhaps I'll ask her for a more "mainline protestant" view.

 

[butterfly]

This is far above our paygrades, but I will be curious to see what comes of this throwing down of another gauntlet. I hesitate to use the "s-word," but I'm thinking about what the Methodist denomination is experiencing now (and Episcopalians did in the '90's).

My concern is not for any one denom but, rather, for the Body of Christ itself. I mean, we all know who loves dissension among the brethren.

As a Methodist I would call our current denominational spat more a tempest in a teapot not at all rising to the Satanic level. The actual people in the pews get along just fine. The women's group, once United Methodist Women, is now United Women of Christ and is made up of church members on both sides of the split.

 

[venice_ca]

Intrigue and division within the Vatican? How unusual. < /s >

Wake me up when the scandal reaches the level of the Vatican Bank/IOR buying French Exocet missiles for a South American Catholic military junta to fight a Protestant European power. Or financially supporting a Catholic rebel group in Northern Ireland against the same European power, and then investing in over-priced real estate in that country’s capital.

I thought it odd that Papa Bergoglio announced investigations into the bank when he assumed power given the world’s attention to the scandals involving clergy abuses. Especially odd since the bank was supposedly reformed after the Banco Ambrosiano scandal. But reform was indeed needed, and apparently those reforms instituted during the current pontificate, while helpful, need to be continued.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/world/vatican-trial-cardinal-verdict-intl-cmd/index.html

Court victories, and the blessings — congratulations to the wily Argentinian Jesuit.

 

[nota bene]

As a Methodist I would call our current denominational spat more a tempest in a teapot not at all rising to the Satanic level. The actual people in the pews get along just fine. The women's group, once United Methodist Women, is now United Women of Christ and is made up of church members on both sides of the split.

I'd call what's going on far more than a "spat." It's a schism.