Arab world tells Hamas to lay down arms and end rule of Gaza - support UN force in Gaza

[cpwill]

Ah, yes, because Europe never condemned Hamas or Oct 7th... c'mon man!!

And then (in some craven cases) rewarded them for their efforts.

If we told Putin that invading Ukraine was ver, ver, bad, but, unless he agreed to a ceasefire in the next week, we would respond by recognizing Russia's right to the Donbass.....

....how do you think he would respond?

 

[bomberfox]

And then (in some craven cases) rewarded them for their efforts.

If we told Putin that invading Ukraine was ver, ver, bad, but, unless he agreed to a ceasefire in the next week, we would respond by recognizing Russia's right to the Donbass.....

....how do you think he would respond?

Except no israeli land has been taken. The only peace that will happen is palestinian statehood and a stop to the theft of land from west bank palestinians.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

That won't happen either. Israel won't allow it.

Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state many times. The Palestinians only had to agree to peacefully accept Israel as a Jewish state.

 

[Geoist]

And then (in some craven cases) rewarded them for their efforts.

If we told Putin that invading Ukraine was ver, ver, bad, but, unless he agreed to a ceasefire in the next week, we would respond by recognizing Russia's right to the Donbass.....

....how do you think he would respond?

Do you think Putin isn't getting anything out of a potential ceasefire? Hamas is all but done. And any Palestinian state will not have a Hamas as its government. You just don't want a Palestinian state at all.

 

[pedex]

Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state many times. The Palestinians only had to agree to peacefully accept Israel as a Jewish state.

They are in the middle of killing/displacing a couple million with complete impunity. They won't stop now.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

They are in the middle of killing/displacing a couple million with complete impunity. They won't stop now.

Israel is allowed to defend themselves from the Palestinians' illegal war of aggression.

 

[pedex]

Israel is allowed to defend themselves from the Palestinians' illegal war of aggression.

While you're acknowledging that acknowledge the years of torture and indiscriminate killing also perpetrated by Israel.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

While you're acknowledging that acknowledge the years of torture and indiscriminate killing also perpetrated by Israel.

What torture and indiscriminate killing are you referring to?

 

[pedex]

What torture and indiscriminate killing are you referring to?

The decades of it that went on before Oct 7th. .

 

[Lursa]

There is nothing too complex about simply ascribing value and worth to each human. I suppose you thought there was?

It's complex when there are 2 involved...if you include consideration for both. So...you still avoid answering mine?

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The decades of it that went on before Oct 7th.

I see no evidence of any such thing having happened.

 

[cpwill]

Except no israeli land has been taken.

No, Israel was able to fight HAMAS back into Gaza - however the point here is that both Putin and HAMAS are the aggressor, and are the actors refusing to allow the wars they started to end.

And so, if you give someone who started a war one of the major goals of that war, does that tell them that the war was a failure, or a success ?

Because HAMAS sees it as success, and validation of their strategy.




And it is difficult to say they are wrong - because they probably aren't.


Respectfully, it is very difficult to accept that ya'll cannot grasp this very simple point about incentives, and difficult instead to fail to conclude that you do not wish to admit this basic reality because it tells you that there are unintended and deeply negative consequences for a particular way of achieving something that you like.

But the more you reward HAMAS for its initial aggression and forced sustainment of this conflict, the more of it you will get.


So, if you like this war, then support France and the UK. Because that's how you get more of it.

 

[bomberfox]

No, Israel was able to fight HAMAS back into Gaza - however the point here is that both Putin and HAMAS are the aggressor, and are the actors refusing to allow the wars they started to end.

And so, if you give someone who started a war one of the major goals of that war, does that tell them that the war was a failure, or a success ?

Because HAMAS sees it as success.




Respectfully, it is very difficult to accept that ya'll cannot grasp this very simple point about incentives, and difficult instead to fail to conclude that you do not wish to admit this basic reality because it tells you that there are unintended and deeply negative consequences for something that you like.

But the more you reward HAMAS for its initial aggression and forced sustainment of this conflict, the more of it you will get.


So, if you like this war, then support France and the UK. Because that's how you get more of it.

I understand incentives. Hamas is not in the proposal no matter how much they think they are. Theres plenty of things that could have been done to prevent it but nuttyahoo wasnt having it so here we are. C’est la vie. This situation has become desperate so Palestinians need an assurance that a solution is possible. I understand why he is doing it.

I dont think anyone is getting the best option and its a shit show. Canada along with this recognition will need to become directly involved in negotiating the release of the hostages.

 

[cpwill]

Do you think Putin isn't getting anything out of a potential ceasefire?

Well, if you announced that UNLESS he agreed to a ceasefire, you would recognize the Donbass, what do you think it would do.

None of you are willing to answer this question because the answer is obvious and embarrassing. The UK and France are encouraging HAMAS to continue the war, which is why HAMAS negotiating position has hardened in recent weeks to the point that even their Arabic interlocutors are rejecting their demands as ridiculous.

Because European powers just dangled a massive carrot in front of them to get them to refuse to accept a ceasefire.

Hamas is all but done. And any Palestinian state will not have a Hamas as its government.

HAMAS is not all but done - wishing for a thing because that would be convenient does not make it so.

Especially given that European powers are reinforcing at current that they are not done, and instead convincing them of the success and validity of their strategy.

You just don't want a Palestinian state at all.

That is where you are incorrect. I would be absolutely fine with a Palestinian state. I do not think it is possible at current because the Palestinians do not want peaceful co-existence, and have repeatedly demonstrated they will only use political autonomy to launch violent attacks on their neighbors.

Unfortunately, the actions of the UK and France delay the possibility of a Palestinian state, because they encourage Palestinians to continue seeking one through brutal violence and sticking with maximalist genocidal goals. Israel will no more - and cannot - allow a Palestinian state in those circumstances than we could allow al-Qa'ida to set up an airline in the United States in 2006.

Hence the analogy: They are trying to end a war and reduce future violence... by signaling to the aggressor that aggression and violence is a wise and successful strategy.

It's insane. I mean, imagine of the United States were to announce "Unless Israel Agrees to Pull Out of Gaza, We Will Double The Amount of Support We Send Them". What would that incentivize?

 

[Felis Leo]

Um no ive seen the actual goings on in gaza. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/29/letter-sanctions-israel-gaza-starvation So have they.

What was the Italian kid story? If there is a better term than genocide ill be fine with using it.

What was the term that was used when we secretly bombed Laos for nearly a decade and killed roughly one in every ten people living in that country? Perhaps we should use that term.

Until then, indiscriminate bombings leaving nowhere in Gaza safe, mass-starvation, reducing aid sites from 400 down to 4, refusing to let foreign journalists in to see what is going on in Gaza even at the aid sites to show how humane and restrained the Israelis are (which they are not), showing at the very least nothing short of a depraved indifference to human life to outright sadism? All while the Israeli government says that it backs a campaign of expulsion of Palestinians out of Gaza and dispossession of Palestinians in the West Bank. I will call it genocide.

Our children and grandchildren can judge us, will judge us and should judge us for how we speak of this abomination today. And one day, everyone will say that they were against what Israel is doing in Gaza. Some of us will not have to lie about it.

 

[bomberfox]

What was the term that was used when we secretly bombed Laos for nearly a decade and killed roughly one in every ten people living in that country? Perhaps we should use that term.

Until then, indiscriminate bombings leaving nowhere in Gaza safe, mass-starvation, reducing aid sites from 400 down to 4, refusing to let foreign journalists in to see what is going on in Gaza even at the aid sites to show how humane and restrained the Israelis are (which they are not), showing at the very least nothing short of a depraved indifference to human life to outright sadism? All while the Israeli government says that it backs a campaign of expulsion of Palestinians out of Gaza and dispossession of Palestinians in the West Bank. I will call it genocide.

Our children and grandchildren can judge us, will judge us and should judge us for how we speak of this abomination today. And one day, everyone will say that they were against what Israel is doing in Gaza. Some of us will not have to lie about it.

Its absolutely insane.

 

[Tigerace117]

What was the term that was used when we secretly bombed Laos for nearly a decade and killed roughly one in every ten people living in that country? Perhaps we should use that term.

Until then, indiscriminate bombings leaving nowhere in Gaza safe, mass-starvation, reducing aid sites from 400 down to 4, refusing to let foreign journalists in to see what is going on in Gaza even at the aid sites to show how humane and restrained the Israelis are (which they are not), showing at the very least nothing short of a depraved indifference to human life to outright sadism? All while the Israeli government says that it backs a campaign of expulsion of Palestinians out of Gaza and dispossession of Palestinians in the West Bank. I will call it genocide.

Our children and grandchildren can judge us, will judge us and should judge us for how we speak of this abomination today. And one day, everyone will say that they were against what Israel is doing in Gaza. Some of us will not have to lie about it.

Nobody was ever punished for the bombing campaign in Laos either. Truly, it’s a mystery why the Communist Party there is still firmly in power fifty years later

 

[cpwill]

I understand incentives.

Okedoke. How do you think HAMAS is going to respond to the incentive structure that launching a brutal war gets them victory, just like they always believed it would?

Hamas is not in the proposal no matter how much they think they are.

Oh. And so that means that the impacts aren't real?

If Israel were to write on the side of their bombs "Not For Children", would that mean no kids ever get killed when they drop?

"I mean, we said very clearly that it was Not For Children! Obviously we now no longer have to consider the completely predictable results of our actions!"


Consequences Matter.

Theres plenty of things that could have been done to prevent it but nuttyahoo wasnt having it so here we are. C’est la vie. This situation has become desperate so Palestinians need an assurance that a solution is possible.

No. Palestinians need to learn that holding on to maximalist genocidal goals of wiping out every Jew in Israel is something that keeps them from having a state. The UK and France are telling them the opposite, and, as a result, actual statehood will likely be further delayed, and Gazan suffering will be increased.

I understand why he is doing it.

I do too. Foreign policy is generally inherently domestic.

I dont think anyone is getting the best option and its a shit show. Canada along with this recognition will need to become directly involved in negotiating the release of the hostages.

:lol: Imean, how? Or .... what?

"You better think aboot releasing those hostages, or else we are going to support you even harder!" ?

 

[bomberfox]

Okedoke. How do you think HAMAS is going to respond to the incentive structure that launching a brutal war gets them victory, just like they always believed it would?






Oh. And so that means that the impacts aren't real?

If Israel were to write on the side of their bombs "Not For Children", would that mean no kids ever get killed when they drop?

"I mean, we said very clearly that it was Not For Children! Obviously we now no longer have to consider the completely predictable results of our actions!"


Consequences Matter.




No. Palestinians need to learn that holding on to maximalist genocidal goals of wiping out every Jew in Israel is something that keeps them from having a state. The UK and France are telling them the opposite, and, as a result, actual statehood will likely be further delayed, and Gazan suffering will be increased.




I do too. Foreign policy is generally inherently domestic.




:lol: Imean, how? Or .... what?

"You better think aboot releasing those hostages, or else we are going to support you even harder!" ?

We’ll see how this goes. If you wanna blame anyone for this blame nuttyahu and his bloodthirsty cabinet. The days of blood thirsty nationalists running the world is waning. I predicted a third party is going to have to step in. Its regrettable that this is coming before the release of the hostages but the situation on the ground has forced staunch supporters to reconsider.

You are right that this rewards Hamas even if they are not recognized by anyone to be the governing body, but this isnt even for Hamas.

 

[cpwill]

What was the term that was used when we secretly bombed Laos for nearly a decade and killed roughly one in every ten people living in that country? Perhaps we should use that term.

Or when we invaded Okinawa, and 1/4 of the population died (helped along the way with that by the Japanese who, like HAMAS, made sure many of them died).

We called it "War".

Until then, indiscriminate bombings leaving nowhere in Gaza safe, mass-starvation, reducing aid sites from 400 down to 4, refusing to let foreign journalists in to see what is going on in Gaza even at the aid sites to show how humane and restrained the Israelis are (which they are not),

Respectfully, if you think that, it is because you are not familiar with Israeli targeting procedures, or what unrestrained violence would actually look like.

That's really good, because it means you have grown up in very protected and safe world where you have never had to see actual modern nation-state violence at scale and at speed. Our ancestors dreamed of such a thing.

But Israel has indeed been restrained - far more than we would be in similar circumstances.

I do worry about them deciding to abandon that, convinced that no amount of restraint will ever satisfy the people who are determined to attack them no matter what they do. More and more I think that day is going to come, perhaps the next time HAMAS pulls something like this.

Our children and grandchildren can judge us, will judge us and should judge us for how we speak of this abomination today. And one day, everyone will say that they were against what Israel is doing in Gaza.

...Eh There will be a New Big Outrage That Everyone Will Be Very Upset About, and people will forget about this except for those directly involved, just like people are less and less intense about Ukraine, and the "Uighur moment" is over, no one cares about the suppression of Hong Kong, and no one is still litigating whether or not we should have toppled Qhadaffi, or should intervene in Sudan.

The war in Syria killed ten times this many people, and people only cared if ISIS escaped and started attacking us here in the West. There are actual genocides happening in Africa, and folks barely care, if they even know.

As soon as the media needs something else to keep up ratings and fit The Narrative, they will shift to that, and everyone will care less and less about Gaza. If I had to put down a dollar, I'd bet on the midterm elections.

Some of us will not have to lie about it.

 

[cpwill]

We’ll see how this goes. If you wanna blame anyone for this blame nuttyahu and his bloodthirsty cabinet.

Nope. Netanyahu didn't launch Oct 7th, start this war, or insist that it keep going. HAMAS could end it at any time, and refuses, because (thanks to the Western Left), they think they are winning.

The days of blood thirsty nationalists running the world is waning.

Oh nice. .....Have you informed the Chinese, the Russians, or the Arabs of this?

I predicted a third party is going to have to step in.

Who do you think wants to step in and fight HAMAS and try to run Gaza that Israel would accept?

Its regrettable that this is coming before the release of the hostages but the situation on the ground has forced staunch supporters to reconsider.

Well, okedoke then: who do you think is going to go to war with Israel AND HAMAS. ?

You are right that this rewards Hamas even if they are not recognized by anyone to be the governing body, but this isnt even for Hamas.

See, though, it doesn't matter if we say that if the actual effect is that it rewards HAMAS - and that is the effect that it has on the ground.

 

[bomberfox]

Nope. Netanyahu didn't launch Oct 7th, start this war, or insist that it keep going. HAMAS could end it at any time, and refuses, because (thanks to the Western Left), they think they are winning.




Oh nice. .....Have you informed the Chinese, the Russians, or the Arabs of this?



Who do you think wants to step in and fight HAMAS and try to run Gaza that Israel would accept?




Well, okedoke then: who do you think is going to go to war with Israel AND HAMAS. ?




It doesn't matter if we say it isn't, if that is in fact the effect that it has on the ground - and that is the effect that it has on the ground.

Hum i mention bloodthirsty nationalists because nuttyahu has directly promoted and made bedfellows with the very fascists that are gaining popularity in europe and you mention everyone else? Curious. As i recall Canada is recognizing the PA, not hamas.

I blame nuttyahu and his gang of thugs for this. We can continue to starve palestinians and say “quit hitting yourself” or act. Netanyahu will have to be held accountable for his monumental **** ups. He cant gaslight the world anymore.

Dunno what else to do at this point.

 

[Tigerace117]

Okedoke. How do you think HAMAS is going to respond to the incentive structure that launching a brutal war gets them victory, just like they always believed it would?






Oh. And so that means that the impacts aren't real?

If Israel were to write on the side of their bombs "Not For Children", would that mean no kids ever get killed when they drop?

"I mean, we said very clearly that it was Not For Children! Obviously we now no longer have to consider the completely predictable results of our actions!"


Consequences Matter.




No. Palestinians need to learn that holding on to maximalist genocidal goals of wiping out every Jew in Israel is something that keeps them from having a state. The UK and France are telling them the opposite, and, as a result, actual statehood will likely be further delayed, and Gazan suffering will be increased.




I do too. Foreign policy is generally inherently domestic.




:lol: Imean, how? Or .... what?

"You better think aboot releasing those hostages, or else we are going to support you even harder!" ?

Israel is entirely responsible for Israel’s choices to use civilians as human shields, brutally abuse prisoners, and try to steal land from their neighbors. Wailing “Hamas” can’t change that.

Israel’s wailing because Britain and France are no longer willing to blithely sign off on the “Jewish state”s mass murder campaign can’t change the facts.

Israel doesn’t give a shit about “the hostages” and never has.

 

[Felis Leo]

Or when we invaded Okinawa, and 1/4 of the population died (helped along the way with that by the Japanese who, like HAMAS, made sure many of them died).

We called it "War".

But if you genuinely believe that, would it not be correct to say that you think war crimes and crimes against humanity are not an actual thing? That we never should have held the Nuremberg Trials or Japanese War Crimes Trials, and that none of those militaries should have been held liable, as they were little but drawn-out vengeance pornography? Do you think we should just drop the pretense and let our military and every other military behave however it wants like the Japanese military did during World War 2?

Respectfully, if you think that, it is because you are not familiar with Israeli targeting procedures, or what unrestrained violence would actually look like.

That's really good, because it means you have grown up in very protected and safe world where you have never had to see actual modern nation-state violence at scale and at speed. Our ancestors dreamed of such a thing.

But Israel has indeed been restrained - far more than we would be in similar circumstances.

I do worry about them deciding to abandon that, convinced that no amount of restraint will ever satisfy the people who are determined to attack them no matter what they do. More and more I think that day is going to come, perhaps the next time HAMAS pulls something like this.

I have no evidence of Israel's restraint beyond "They could have killed more people." Sure. That apologia works until it doesn't. One could have said the exact same thing about the Germans in World War 2 prior to January 20, 1942 and the Wannsee Conference. Sure it was clear that the Germans were brutalizing the Jews of Poland, and had killed several in the countryside in mass-executions along with well educated and influential Poles, and were busily killing the Jews in what had been the Russian Pale of Settlement, and had concentrated the Polish Jews into a handful of tiny Ghettos like those of Warsaw and Lodz, where they were kept in appalling conditions. But without knowing what the Nazis were saying behind closed doors, if we were looking only at the Jews of Poland, could we not say the same things we saw of Israel and Gaza?

"If it was Germany's goal to murder all the Jews of Poland, why go to all this trouble of concentrating them in Ghettoes for nearly the last two years? The Germans have the largest, most-experienced, most-advanced military ever fielded on the European mainland. If they wanted to kill all the Jews of Poland, they could have done so anytime within days or weeks! They have the manpower and bullets to stage a mass pogrom and massacre. If anything, the relatively small number of Jewish deaths in Poland as a result of violence, disease and malnourishment as compared both to the Jewish population and the number of Polish Slavs who have been liquidated just shows the incredible restraint and honor of the German military, despite the irresponsible rhetoric of their Chancellor and some of his more thuggish ministers!"

...Eh There will be a New Big Outrage That Everyone Will Be Very Upset About, and people will forget about this except for those directly involved, just like people are less and less intense about Ukraine, and the "Uighur moment" is over, no one cares about the suppression of Hong Kong, and no one is still litigating whether or not we should have toppled Qhadaffi, or should intervene in Sudan.

The war in Syria killed ten times this many people, and people only cared if ISIS escaped and started attacking us here in the West. There are actual genocides happening in Africa, and folks barely care, if they even know.

As soon as the media needs something else to keep up ratings and fit The Narrative, they will shift to that, and everyone will care less and less about Gaza. If I had to put down a dollar, I'd bet on the midterm elections.

I think you are whistling past the graveyard, cpwill. The outrage over Gaza has been sustained and has only grown over time while support for Israel from all quarters of our society has diminished, including among American Jews (while not the majority, and increasing number of younger Jews have no affinity for Israel or are outright anti-Zionist). Further as to all the other genocides across the world, what makes Israel's genocide more horrible for Americans is that we are being made culpable for it. How many of those governments committing genocide did we directly fund with taxpayer money, supply with free weaponry at the taxpayer's expense, call our allies, while inviting their heads of government to speak before our Congress and with our own president pulling out their chair to seat them?

 

[Mr Person]

Boston Globe just finally got around to reporting this.

Arab states call for Hamas to disarm amid push for a Palestinian state - The Boston Globe

"Hamas must end its rule in Gaza," reads a declaration endorsed by the 22 member nations of the Arab League, which also condemned the attack on Israel on October 7.

www.bostonglobe.com