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Anti-abortion MDs must refer for abortions, watchdog says

Scrabaholic said:
Doctors don't give pessaries to induce abortions these days, and they do not take that form of the oath anymore, so your reply is not relevant.
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Do you think Hippocrates would have been down with any other form of abortion? Pessaries are apparently given to induce abortion in some circles - link, link, link, link

-AJF
 
Scrabaholic said:
Doctors don't give pessaries to induce abortions these days, and they do not take that form of the oath anymore, so your reply is not relevant.
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If they don't take that form of the oath then they are not taking the Hippocratic Oath.
 
applejuicefool said:
Do you think Hippocrates would have been down with any other form of abortion?
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I don't know and I don't care. Most doctors today do not take any form of oath that mentions abortion and some don't take an oath at all.
 
applejuicefool said:
Do you think Hippocrates would have been down with any other form of abortion? Pessaries are apparently given to induce abortion in some circles - link, link, link, link

-AJF
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From Roe section VI

. Why did not the authority of Hippocrates dissuade abortion practice in his time and that of Rome? The late Dr. Edelstein provides us with a theory: 16 The Oath was not uncontested even in Hippocrates' day; only the Pythagorean school of philosophers frowned upon the related act of suicide. Most Greek thinkers, on the other hand, commended abortion, at least prior to viability. See Plato, Republic, V, 461; Aristotle, Politics, VII, 1335b 25.
...

Dr. Edelstein then concludes that the Oath originated in a group representing only a small segment of Greek opinion and that it certainly was not accepted by all ancient physicians. He points out that medical writings down to Galen (A. D. 130-200) "give evidence of the violation of almost every one of its injunctions."
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Read more:

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/gov/bl_roe_d.htm
 
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I work with physicians who are atheists...and would never consider performing an abortion. Simply because they will not affiliate themselves with a procedure that is so controversial. They are protecting their reputations.
 
I have to say that I hope the doctors who are suing to overturn this decision by the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons are successful in court.

Why the need for a referral? Referrals cost the healthcare system precious dollars that should be used elsewhere. The argument that doctors aren't accepting new patients without a referral seems ludicrous to me unless there are women out there who have multiple abortion procedures in their lifetime and remain patients for years and years.

Seems to me one reason for the referral process is so that those doctors specializing in such treatments don't have to advertise their specialty in public and they can hide behind anonymity. I say, be loud, be proud, and advertise to the world that you perform abortions. Don't force other doctors to do the dirty work for you.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Doctors who refuse to refer patients for services on religious and moral grounds — including abortions — could face discipline under a new policy adopted by their regulating body.
The measure protects patients’ right to access care and at the same time ensures that doctors meet their legal obligations under the Ontario Human Rights Code, Dr. Carol Leet, president of the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons, said in an interview on Monday.
Physicians who do not comply with the new policy could face repercussions ranging from a requirement to upgrade their education to revocation of their medical licences, depending on the seriousness of the situation, she said.

Anti-abortion MDs must refer for abortions, watchdog says | Toronto Star


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I think this is fair. We need a referral to see an OBGYN, and it's not a matter of just going to another GP to get it, as most of them are not taking new patients.
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For the record this story relates to practices in the province of Ontario only. As far as I can tell it doesn't apply anywhere else in Canada
 
CanadaJohn said:
I have to say that I hope the doctors who are suing to overturn this decision by the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons are successful in court.

Why the need for a referral? Referrals cost the healthcare system precious dollars that should be used elsewhere. The argument that doctors aren't accepting new patients without a referral seems ludicrous to me unless there are women out there who have multiple abortion procedures in their lifetime and remain patients for years and years.

Seems to me one reason for the referral process is so that those doctors specializing in such treatments don't have to advertise their specialty in public and they can hide behind anonymity. I say, be loud, be proud, and advertise to the world that you perform abortions. Don't force other doctors to do the dirty work for you.
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The practice of referral is gone here. I think it is Ontario only.
 
Nursmate said:
I work with physicians who are atheists...and would never consider performing an abortion. Simply because they will not affiliate themselves with a procedure that is so controversial. They are protecting their reputations.
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Do your doctors specialize in OB-GYN?
 
CanadaJohn said:
Ontario these days doesn't look anything like the decent, successful Province it once was.
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I am getting that.

And the more hear, not only from you but cousins, it is frightening. Do they not have stand alone abortion clinics there? Is it all still in hospitals?

I once read and disbelieved that Ontario has fewer critical care hospital beds than BC. I wonder if my disbelief was warranted.

God help you if true, while I have few complaints, I doubt we are a Ferrari
 
year2late said:
Do your doctors specialize in OB-GYN?
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Yes...and general surgeons. Where I live, patients who seek services such as abortion are referred to clinics who specialize in them. The hospitals are reluctant to perform abortions for the same reason. This topic is divided, pro life and pro choice...hospitals and physicians will not risk losing the pro life population as patients for they are a business. I am pro choice...but I would not list a abortion clinic on my resume as a nurse. I worked too hard for my credentials to be shut out of opportunity to advance or work. These decisions fall under ethics and in healthcare..ethics is the buzz word. A healthcare provider should never be forced to work against ethics.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I have to say that I hope the doctors who are suing to overturn this decision by the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons are successful in court.

Why the need for a referral? Referrals cost the healthcare system precious dollars that should be used elsewhere. The argument that doctors aren't accepting new patients without a referral seems ludicrous to me unless there are women out there who have multiple abortion procedures in their lifetime and remain patients for years and years.

Seems to me one reason for the referral process is so that those doctors specializing in such treatments don't have to advertise their specialty in public and they can hide behind anonymity. I say, be loud, be proud, and advertise to the world that you perform abortions. Don't force other doctors to do the dirty work for you.
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I take it you have never needed to see a specialist? You need a referral to see any specialist - I needed one to see my respirologist, I have needed one when I needed to see a gynocologist, I needed one to see an endocrinologist etc. Unless you go to a clinic, you need to get a referral to see an OB-GYN to get an abortion.

I believe the reason for the requirement is that specialists cost the system more money so it's to make sure it's genuinely needed. When I saw the endocrinologist, I got a letter from OHIP asking me to verify my having seen him (they do this randomly to make sure doctors aren't billing for appointments that never happened), and the fee for the appointment was listed at something like $105 or so, whereas a GP fee was around $35. (this was around the turn of the century)
 
Scrabaholic said:
I take it you have never needed to see a specialist? You need a referral to see any specialist - I needed one to see my respirologist, I have needed one when I needed to see a gynocologist, I needed one to see an endocrinologist etc. Unless you go to a clinic, you need to get a referral to see an OB-GYN to get an abortion.

I believe the reason for the requirement is that specialists cost the system more money so it's to make sure it's genuinely needed. When I saw the endocrinologist, I got a letter from OHIP asking me to verify my having seen him (they do this randomly to make sure doctors aren't billing for appointments that never happened), and the fee for the appointment was listed at something like $105 or so, whereas a GP fee was around $35. (this was around the turn of the century)
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Personally, I'm a very low user of healthcare services here so I'm not as familiar with the multitude of rules and regulations around referrals. Seems odd, however, that in the US you can have walk in abortion services and in Canada we have to have referrals. Oh well, just another use for my tax dollars.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Ontario these days doesn't look anything like the decent, successful Province it once was.
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Yeah, but that has nothing to do with the topic.....we have needed referrals long before the current party was in power.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Personally, I'm a very low user of healthcare services here so I'm not as familiar with the multitude of rules and regulations around referrals. Seems odd, however, that in the US you can have walk in abortion services and in Canada we have to have referrals. Oh well, just another use for my tax dollars.
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The 'walk in' ones would be clinics? Yes, that is the norm in the USA but here, there are not as many clinics. If you don't live in or near a large city, you would have to have it done in a hospital unless you wanted to travel.
 
Scrabaholic said:
The 'walk in' ones would be clinics? Yes, that is the norm in the USA but here, there are not as many clinics. If you don't live in or near a large city, you would have to have it done in a hospital unless you wanted to travel.
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Which begs the question, if most people live in large cities - and in Ontario they do - why the need for referrals?
 
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