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Another college sexual harassment matter

Lutherf

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Student claims he was expelled from W&L for consensual sex - Roanoke Times: Higher Education

John Doe claims that twice, he had consensual sex with a student identified in the lawsuit as Jane Doe. The first encounter occurred in his room at the Pi Kappa Phi fraternity house where they went after an off-campus party on Feb. 8. Both had been drinking, he said.


He claims they sat on chairs in his room and talked for about an hour. He said Jane Doe then said that while she doesn’t usually have sex with a man when she first meets him, she found him very interesting. He said she moved toward him, initiated kissing, took off her clothes except for her underwear and got into bed with him. He said at no point did she say she did not want to have sex.



He claims she spent the night, that he contacted her later through Facebook and that they had sex again in early March. He said she told her friends she had a good time. But at a Pi Kappa Phi St. Patrick’s Day party a few weeks later, Jane Doe left when she saw him kissing another woman, who is now his girlfriend.



It wasn’t until July that Jane Doe told a friend that she was sexually assaulted, the lawsuit claims. Then in October, Jane Doe, as a member of a student organization against sexual assault called SPEAK, attended a presentation by W&L Title IX officer Lauren Kozak. According to the lawsuit, Kozak shared an article, “Is it possible that there is something in between consensual sex and rape … and that it happens to almost every girl out there?



The article talks about alcohol-fueled sex in which the woman later regrets the encounter.



“Ms. Kozak introduced and discussed the article with the members of SPEAK to make her point that ‘regret equals rape,’ and went on to state her belief that this point was a new idea everyone is starting to agree with,” the lawsuit contends.



Five days after the presentation, Jane Doe reported to Kozak she was sexually assaulted but indicated she did not want to pursue a complaint, the lawsuit said.



By the end of October, Jane Doe changed her mind once she learned that both she and John Doe had been accepted into a program to study in Nepal for a semester, the lawsuit states.

For that he got expelled?

Maybe he should just shut his mouth and be happy he's not in jail. This is a whole new world and for men in college it's got to be a damned scary one.
 
You want to really get an idea of how messed up this stuff is? Try this conclusion from the article linked in the quote -
It happens to us with consistent hookups, first dates, boyfriends, and one-night stands alike. We have sex with guys, because sometimes it’s just easier to do it than to have the argument about not doing it. But no one talks about it. Talking about it makes it a big deal. It makes us feel like we’re whining. It makes us feel like we’re being dramatic. And we don’t want it to be dramatic. We don’t feel entirely violated. It doesn’t affect us forever. We just feel like we got the short end of the stick, and that sometimes, we have to do something we don’t want to do, out of politeness or social obligation. So why bring it up? Why risk wrongfully tagging a guy with a serious, heavy label he doesn’t deserve? And more importantly, why risk being wrongfully tagged as “the girl who cried rape,” when we’re not trying to say it was rape at all? We’re saying we don’t know what it was. We just didn’t like it. But by refusing to acknowledge the existence of these rape-ish situations, we’re continuing to subject ourselves to them indefinitely.

You were drunk and did someone for the hell of it and now your indiscretion makes the situation "rape-ish" on his part? **** that!! Making yourself out to be the victim in such a case is plain old bull****.
 
You were drunk and did someone for the hell of it and now your indiscretion makes the situation "rape-ish" on his part? **** that!! Making yourself out to be the victim in such a case is plain old bull****.

You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.

For some folks it doesn't take a drop of alcohol to impair their judgement. Besides, the idea that someone who is intoxicated can't consent to sex is ridiculous.
 
What do you mean by this, exactly?



How so?

I mean that some people (maybe most) have **** for judgement when it comes to sex whether alcohol is involved or not. The other is simply that if you're man or woman enough to have a drink then you damned well better accept the consequences as well. Taking advantage of someone who's passed out is different but just because because you're buzzed is no excuse for poor judgment.
 
I mean that some people (maybe most) have **** for judgement when it comes to sex whether alcohol is involved or not.

So?

The other is simply that if you're man or woman enough to have a drink then you damned well better accept the consequences as well.

Is your stance really well they were drinking, so that means they were asking for it? Would you be okay with your friend using your Credit Card to buy a couple of Xboxes if he asked you for that card while you were drunk?

Taking advantage of someone who's passed out is different but just because because you're buzzed is no excuse for poor judgment.

Medically speaking, impaired judgement is a side effect of Alcohol consumption. So yes, being buzzed very much changes the way someone thinks and acts.
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.

So I've been raped many, many times when I've been drinking but my partner hasn't?
 
So?



Is your stance really well they were drinking, so that means they were asking for it? Would you be okay with your friend using your Credit Card to buy a couple of Xboxes if he asked you for that card while you were drunk?



Medically speaking, impaired judgement is a side effect of Alcohol consumption. So yes, being buzzed very much changes the way someone thinks and acts.

It's not that they were "asking for it". It's that they are the ones who should be responsible for their own behavior. If they were drunk and got into a car and killed someone on the road nobody would say they weren't responsible but if they screw someone and decide later on that they shouldn't have then all of a sudden it's not their fault and they got "raped". Well, that's just plain bull****. You can't have it both ways. If you drink and drive or drink and beat your wife or drink and gamble your savings away that's all your fault but when it comes to sex all of a sudden it's someone else's fault. Ridiculous.
 
Student claims he was expelled from W&L for consensual sex - Roanoke Times: Higher Education



For that he got expelled?

Maybe he should just shut his mouth and be happy he's not in jail. This is a whole new world and for men in college it's got to be a damned scary one.

Just based on the OP this sounds INSANE . .. . hopefully there is more to the story because nothing here justifies expulsion and it makes the girl seem nutty and like a false victim that gives REAL rape victims a bad name.
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.

And if they're both drunk? Are they both victims?
 
So I've been raped many, many times when I've been drinking but my partner hasn't?

You get to define your boundaries. If you're fine with someone having sex with you while you're under the influence, that is your business. However that is not the case for everybody.

It's not that they were "asking for it". It's that they are the ones who should be responsible for their own behavior. If they were drunk and got into a car and killed someone on the road nobody would say they weren't responsible but if they screw someone and decide later on that they shouldn't have then all of a sudden it's not their fault and they got "raped". Well, that's just plain bull****. You can't have it both ways. If you drink and drive or drink and beat your wife or drink and gamble your savings away that's all your fault but when it comes to sex all of a sudden it's someone else's fault. Ridiculous.

Again it is your boundaries and how you define them are what needs to be protected. When you're having sex with someone who is clearly drunk you are potentially taking advantage of the fact her judgement is impaired.

And if they're both drunk? Are they both victims?

Legally speaking, it can go either way.
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.
So what you are saying then, is that she took advantage of him when she initiated the sex because he had been drinking and could not therefore consent. Correct?
:shrug:
She was the one who initiated. :shrug:
Or did you not read that?
 
Again it is your boundaries and how you define them are what needs to be protected. When you're having sex with someone who is clearly drunk you are potentially taking advantage of the fact her judgement is impaired.

Are you serious? Is there, in your opinion, ANYTHING that a person should be personally responsible for? If you get drunk and shoot someone is that your fault or the fault of the alcohol manufacturer?
 
Are you serious? Is there, in your opinion, ANYTHING that a person should be personally responsible for? If you get drunk and shoot someone is that your fault or the fault of the alcohol manufacturer?

Having sex with someone you would normally not want to have sex with is not the same thing as driving your car into bystanders, or in a fit of drunken rage you shoot your SO. You're being ridiculous for trying to compare the two. If you are drunk, and someone you would under normal circumstances not even speak with takes advantage of you sexually that can be rape.
 
Having sex with someone you would normally not want to have sex with is not the same thing as driving your car into bystanders, or in a fit of drunken rage you shoot your SO. You're being ridiculous for trying to compare the two. If you are drunk, and someone you would under normal circumstances not even speak with takes advantage of you sexually that can be rape.

its not that i disagree with all of your statements i dont (only some or like one) but im lost in how you feel about the OP situation.

Just based on the info we have no do you think expulsion was just and do you think there was any rape or "rapish" happenings (based on the OP)
 
its not that i disagree with all of your statements i dont (only some or like one) but im lost in how you feel about the OP situation.

Just based on the info we have no do you think expulsion was just and do you think there was any rape or "rapish" happenings (based on the OP)

I never made any claim on the OP, I simply responded with Luther's claim that women should hold themselves accountable for rape.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with Luther on the article. If what the guy said is true, then the woman is falsely claiming rape for a lawsuit. That isn't fair, and when the lie is so blatant it does need to be called out like this. My only complaint in this thread is that the OP in post 2 started to generalize and victim blame everyone who was raped while under the influence.
 
1.)I never made any claim on the OP, I simply responded with Luther's claim that women should hold themselves accountable for rape.
2.)Believe it or not, I actually agree with Luther on the article. If what the guy said is true, then the woman is falsely claiming rape for a lawsuit. That isn't fair, and when the lie is so blatant it does need to be called out like this. My only complaint in this thread is that the OP in post 2 started to generalize and victim blame everyone who was raped while under the influence.

1.) gotcha. . . this is why i asked :D ;)
I didnt see a claim made on the op so i wanted clarification, that explains it lol, thanks!
2.) gotcha and like i said I agree (I think) to a point. Being drunk is NO invitation to being raped

IMO unless one party can be proven to have gotten the other party influenced (drunk ,drugged etc) without thier knowledge if they are both influenced then a lot of rules should go out the window though. . . .

i dont see anything good from trying to determine who was a little more sober and should have known better when everything seems consensual (not saying you said otherwise just saying my piece)

now if one party is drunk and passed out then yes thats rape in most cases but i would still have trouble calling it rape in all cases. For example real couples would make it tricky. If the couple already had sex many times and sober sex and drunken sex and even sex while one was drunk and the other wasnt that again gets tricky.
 
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You get to define your boundaries. If you're fine with someone having sex with you while you're under the influence, that is your business. However that is not the case for everybody.

So I can cry rape if I feel like it?
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.
At best that is a bad use of terminology. It is perfectly possible (legally and morally) for an individual who has recently consumed alcohol to consent to sex. There is clearly a point of intoxication where an individual becomes incapable of consenting but that point is not "under the influence of (any) alcohol", indeed it isn't easily measurable or categorisable at all, which is a major aspect of this whole issue.

There will be millions of entirely consensual sexual encounters where one of both partners have consumed alcohol. I'm sure there are plenty of less-than-consensual ones where they (or at least the victim) haven't either.

As described in the OP article (which is the classic "one side of the story" of such things), I see no reason to presume a lack of consent from either party, despite the fact they'd been drinking and the fact they'd both been drinking would suggest they're equally responsible at best. At worst, the implication you're presenting would be that the University expelled a rape victim because he is male.
 
Student claims he was expelled from W&L for consensual sex - Roanoke Times: Higher Education



For that he got expelled?

Maybe he should just shut his mouth and be happy he's not in jail. This is a whole new world and for men in college it's got to be a damned scary one.

If that article is true and there aren't important parts being left out, it sounds like he's got a great case for his lawsuit.

And this is yet another reason why universities should not be in charge of policing the sexual conduct of students. Let the court system handle it.
 
Having sex with someone you would normally not want to have sex with is not the same thing as driving your car into bystanders, or in a fit of drunken rage you shoot your SO. You're being ridiculous for trying to compare the two. If you are drunk, and someone you would under normal circumstances not even speak with takes advantage of you sexually that can be rape.

Have it your way but as far as I'm concerned unless you're passed out drunk you're still responsible for making decisions regarding sex or anything else. In this case (as presented) and the one in the companion article the woman claims to be intoxicated but appears to have been making decisions all along. There isn't even the indication that she blacked out. If you're going to claim that stuff is "rape" then we may as well forget condoms and just carry an attorney in our pockets.
 
You can not consent to sex if you are under the influence of alcohol. You're taking advantage of someone who's judgement is obviously impaired.

The article states that both had been drinking. Therefore she is as guilty of rape as he is.
 
Having sex with someone you would normally not want to have sex with is not the same thing as driving your car into bystanders, or in a fit of drunken rage you shoot your SO. You're being ridiculous for trying to compare the two. If you are drunk, and someone you would under normal circumstances not even speak with takes advantage of you sexually that can be rape.

They are quite comparable. If you claim that one cannot be responsible for making a decision to have sex while drunk, then they cannot be responsible for any decision they make while drunk. Either you are responsible for your impaired judgement or you are not.
 
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