Angry at the unvaccinated? Here's a better way

[upsideguy]

The concept of herd immunity is not attainable with a coronavirus which can infect multiple species and then be able to mutate into different variants, which can then reinfect people. Something like that will NEVER be eradicated.

H1N1 (the Spanish flu virus) went around the globe FOUR TIMES in one year, back at a time before commercial airlines. And some people think that covid-19 variants are going to be eradicated by masks and mRNA vaccines which only have specific limited---and non lasting protection to a virus which is constantly mutating???

ROTFLMAO!!!

Liberal democrats are supposed to be the people of "science", when in fact they are the people of fantasy and mythology LOL.

OK, please elaborate.... how are liberal democrats people of fantasy and mythology?

Are you thinking that they are suggests the virus is going to be eradicated? I think that is a fantasy on your part. I, for one, can speak as democrat, but not as a liberal democrat since I am not that liberal. That said, we believe the pandemic can end, but I know of no one that is suggesting ti virus will be eradicated. With a higher percentage of a vaccinated population we can render it substantially inert (not deadly), but a nuisance, like the flu.

So is this an indictment of democrats and liberals, liberals that are democrats or are you one of these people that thinks all democrats are liberals, in which case you are just being redundant?

 

[Court Jester]

Trump supporters and Republicans don’t have the right to infect other people with Covid-19.

I'm not a Republican, and I didn't vote for Trump.

Trump supporters and Republicans don’t have the right to not be criticized for their bad behavior.

I'm not a Republican, and I didn't vote for Trump.

If Trump supporters and Republicans don’t want to be treated like belligerent, spiteful assholes then they should stop acting like belligerent, spiteful, assholes.

I'm not a Republican, and I didn't vote for Trump.

It really boils down to a difference in moral values, and the truth is Trump supporters don’t feel as though they have any obligation to get vaccinated to help reduce the risk of injury or death experienced by their, friends, their family, and their community. And it’s okay to to criticize them for that. It’s okay to say that selfish behavior like that — in the middle of global pandemic — is wrong.

I'm not a Republican, and I didn't vote for Trump.

I am also vaccinated and boosted. You are running out of ammo, sure you don't want to retreat now? I decided to get vaccinated and boosted based on my OWN determination of risk vs reward. I didn't do it for you or anyone else. YOU should do what you want to do, or not want to do. I couldn't care less either way.

How does that make me immoral? If I'm vaccinated and boosted, what more do you need from me, a hug? Do what thou wilt shall be he whole of the law.

And there is a point where it’s okay for the government or society to say to them, “Your concerns aren’t as important as the health and safety of other people”

How has vaccines, boosters, and masking kept people from getting the current variant of covid, other than it hasn't.

We do this for other things. We do this for things like drunk driving. Now, I know a drunk driver who gets charged with a crime is pissed off for getting caught and being charged for engaging in an activity that creates substantial risk of harm to others, but it’s appropriate for society to say to the drunk driver: “Stop it. Stop it now. You cannot do this.” And it’s appropriate to do that even if it hurts the drunk driver’s feelings.

Drunk driving is a crime. People who choose not to be vaccinated are free to make up their own minds If somebody feels they need a nanny state to handle all their needs, China is a probably a great place for anyone who is into that.

 

[wist43]

Angry at the unvaccinated? Here's a better way | CNN

You're furious at what you see as the selfishness and ignorance and lack of civic responsibility of the people in your life who refuse to get the jab. You try to convince them by explaining how wrongheaded they are, hoping browbeating will break them. But here's a question, write Peter Bregman...

www.cnn.com

As I keep saying, we can, the government can lead people to water, and so can all well meaning souls, but they can't nor should they demand they drink the water.
The authors of the article above explains why force, bullying, name-calling won't work. It's just good judgement and common sense that you dont.




Continued via the link above.

If the "vaccines" worked, then why are vaccinated people still getting covid at the same rates as unvaxxed??

Definition
vaccine
[vakˈsēn]

NOUN

1. a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases.

-------------------------------

Since the poke is not providing "immunity", why do you insist on calling it a "vaccine"??

Previous vaccines underwent rigorous, longterm testing and faithfully followed the ethics and protocols of science and medicine.

What's happening today with covid follows none of those ethics and protocols.

On the contrary it is being used as an excuse to hand big $$$ contracts to big pharma, with forced usage under penalty and threat by force from government.

The government, Fauci, the hospitals, big pharma, the media... have been caught lying and rigging the data so many times it's ridiculous.

And you throw your weight as a citizen behind that malarkey??

Anyone caught up in the scaremongering campaign of the covid pied pipers is not thinking clearly or rationally.

 

[MaryP]

Unbelievable. The same old arguments over and over and over: as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, words without end.

 

[Lursa]

What are your expert qualifications on anything on this subject? You are just spouting your opinion like everyone else here is doing.

A little defensive there, eh? Where did I claim expert anything? See? You need misrepresentative hyperbole even to start a response. Since I do have a Bachelor of Science in natural resource management tho, with a focus on evolutionary bio, it's cute you think you need to lecture me about 'nature.'

We're done, for the reasons I wrote. Read it again, or dont. I dont care...because giving you more opportunities to try and salvage your self-esteem isnt my thing.

 

[Lursa]

Which was likely due to the high numbers of people in that age group who were concurrently exposed to other diseases like tuberculosis, typhoid, and other ailments, especially soldiers, especially people displaced by the wars, and also the high numbers of young people 20-30 living in crowded urban cities on the eastcoast in europe.

Source that mess of a guess.

 

[phoenix2020]

Good for you, but let's back up a minute... What right does any adult have to force their views onto other adults?

None, do you believe that adults do? If so, why do you feel this way? Let’s talk about it.

 

[Big Brother]

This SJW battle against the no-vax crowd is getting old and is going nowhere. I believe it remains just as a SJW talkpoint for SJWs to feel superior about themselves.

Let's view this from a different angle. Shouldn't we demonize the people who actually got covid? If someone got covid then they were obviously not doing enough to protect themselves and their loved ones, as well as society. Moreover, by allowing themselves to get covid they then became potential killers by infecting others and prolonging the pandemic. The people who didn't get covid should feel superior because they didn't infect and kill anyone. It's time to start shaming the infected as well, as they are the true culprits in this pandemic.

 

[upsideguy]

And it’s solely a drunk driver’s life choice to drive after downing a six pack.

...and, interesting, an unmasked, unvaxxed person is 100x more lethal than a drunk driver, yet we have rules to stop the drunk....

Meanwhile, most health care workers will tell you that nearly 100% of the unvaxxed that end up in the hospital state they regret not being vaxxed, which is too often a dying last wish (for which its too late)



This pandemic continues because our vax rate is 60%, not 80%..... We don't ALL need to be vaxxed, but we need to increase the vaccination rate. We are where we are because of piss poor Republican leadership of a year ago that sought to undermine efforts to fight the virus, largely because Trump wanted it ignored and they felt the need to out Trump Trump. As a result, the waters of reason were polluted beyond help by conspiracy producing media outlets that provided media support for Trump wishes. It is exceedingly frustrating for the rest of us to simply watch stupid at the expense of all of us.

 

[Court Jester]

OK, please elaborate.... how are liberal democrats people of fantasy and mythology?

Have you not been tuned into the first year of the Biden administration's failure after failure chasing woke progressive far left goals?

Are you thinking that they are suggests the virus is going to be eradicated? I think that is a fantasy on your part.

The mandates for vaccinations, masks, and shut downs are ALL coming from the left, the democrat controlled blue states and cities.

Most conservatives I know, and most Republicans (I'm Independent BTW) are NOT antivax, we are anti mandates. The democrats are the polar opposite of that.

I, for one, can speak as democrat, but not as a liberal democrat since I am not that liberal. That said, we believe the pandemic can end, but I know of no one that is suggesting ti virus will be eradicated. With a higher percentage of a vaccinated population we can render it substantially inert (not deadly), but a nuisance, like the flu.

Vaccinations are not and cannot be a one size fits all. And mandating that children be vaccinated is actually obscene.

So is this an indictment of democrats and liberals, liberals that are democrats or are you one of these people that thinks all democrats are liberals, in which case you are just being redundant?

Not all democrats are far left progressive liberal types, but I know of few democrats who are conservatives. It is nearly impossible to be that and subscribe to most of the democrat party platform. Even Joe Manchin, a democrat some believe is a "conservative", yet he votes with Biden more than 80% of the time.

 

[Cardinal]

Unbelievable. The same old arguments over and over and over: as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, words without end.

Every month is April 2020.

 

[Colin Norris]

Angry at the unvaccinated? Here's a better way | CNN

You're furious at what you see as the selfishness and ignorance and lack of civic responsibility of the people in your life who refuse to get the jab. You try to convince them by explaining how wrongheaded they are, hoping browbeating will break them. But here's a question, write Peter Bregman...

www.cnn.com

As I keep saying, we can, the government can lead people to water, and so can all well meaning souls, but they can't nor should they demand they drink the water.
The authors of the article above explains why force, bullying, name-calling won't work. It's just good judgement and common sense that you dont.




Continued via the link above.

In western Australia, the premier just issued severe restrictions on the unvaccinated. Not allowed out of house for walkies. Food delivered. No pubs or bars. Heavy fines if breaking the law.
He'll teach the idiots to get vacinnated.

 

[holbritter]

Angry at the unvaccinated? Here's a better way | CNN

You're furious at what you see as the selfishness and ignorance and lack of civic responsibility of the people in your life who refuse to get the jab. You try to convince them by explaining how wrongheaded they are, hoping browbeating will break them. But here's a question, write Peter Bregman...

www.cnn.com

As I keep saying, we can, the government can lead people to water, and so can all well meaning souls, but they can't nor should they demand they drink the water.
The authors of the article above explains why force, bullying, name-calling won't work. It's just good judgement and common sense that you dont.




Continued via the link above.

Exactly how I handled it with my daughter. She's now getting the vaccine. I raised her not to be peer pressured, regardless of the subject matter, and to think for herself. I encourage her to research valid sources (NOT social media or forums such as this) to make her own decision.

 

[holbritter]

It requires admitting acting like a moron. Like a spoiled toddler. That's not going to happen.

LOL The OP article describes it:

"There's a well-documented phenomenon in psychology called the "backfire effect." Giving people facts disproving their incorrect beliefs can actually reinforce those beliefs. Researchers have observed this phenomenon in the context of political misconceptions, voting preferences, the decision to vaccinate one's children and whether to get a flu vaccine oneself. The more people are confronted with facts at odds with their opinions, the stronger they cling to those opinions."​

​

OP link​

"Stupid is as stupid does."

Wow. I'm surprised you feel that way. I thought you more logical.

 

[Cardinal]

Exactly how I handled it with my daughter. She's now getting the vaccine. I raised her not to be peer pressured, regardless of the subject matter, and to think for herself. I encourage her to research valid sources (NOT social media or forums such as this) to make her own decision.

What was the information that ultimately changed her mind?

 

[Torus34]

Way back in the late 1600's, Mr. Alexander Pope wrote, "The proper study of mankind, is man."

That, I aver, holds in understanding the folks who refuse the Covid-19 virus vaccination. That they do not accept statistics and the logical implications to be drawn from them is a given. They march to a different drummer, one whose tempo is set by emotion.

To the extent that these, our fellow Americans, find comfort in belonging to a group, some insight may be found in Mr. Eric Hoffer's work, The True Believer.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.

 

[holbritter]

What was the information that ultimately changed her mind?

You can take half the credit for that. I showed her the article you recommended on how long mRNA has been around and being studied. It actually made me feel better about trying to convince her, as I was not at that point. I didn't really care too much about myself, and any long term effects of the vaccine, as I am older and past having children and such, but I was concerned with her being young with such a long life ahead of her.
Being vaccine 'hesitant' is not being anti-vax. It's being cautious about 'just getting' whatever is being pushed.

Having people push, threaten and shame did, in fact, make her more hard headed about the whole thing. I also didn't poo-poo her concerns away or say she was being stupid.

 

[americanwoman]

How does the father getting the shot help his son? The father can still catch the virus, watch the news. It's not a get out of jail free card, all the stats seem to show is that the shot recipient's case will likely be milder.

It's crazy you don't seem to understand how unvaccinated people can put a house full of immunocompromised children at risk or how vaccinated people do catch the virus but at a much less chance to spread it.

Not only should that father get vaccinated, he really needs to learn how to properly wear a mask. It's not just a one or two things you need to do to keep a loved one going through chemo safe but a less selfish person will do whatever they have to do.

Newsroom | Winship Cancer Institute of Emory University

The newsroom showcases the latest news and media coverage for Winship Cancer Institute of Emory University.

winshipcancer.emory.edu

COVID-19 is a serious disease, especially for people with cancer. Patients with cancer have a higher risk of serious COVID-19 disease if they get infected. Treatments for cancer may impact how well you can fight the disease if you are exposed to it. Winship Cancer Institute wants to do everything we can to keep you as healthy as possible, including helping you and your family get vaccinated against COVID-19.

The virus that causes COVID-19 is spread through airborne particles, such as when someone who has COVID-19 breathes out or coughs. Therefore, an additional way to protect patients with cancer is by making sure that all of their family members and close contacts are vaccinated against COVID-19. This helps protect those other family members so that they can continue to care for their loved ones, while also providing a bubble of protection from COVID-19 around the person with cancer.

Vaccination against COVID-19, along with consistent and correct mask wearing, provides a high level of protection from getting sick with COVID-19 or developing serious COVID-19 disease.

Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds

British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.

www.nbcnews.com

Fully vaccinated less likely to pass COVID-19 to others

Research on transmission prevention is ongoing. But as more people receive the vaccine, the spread of COVID-19 continues to slow.

www.osfhealthcare.org

Vaccinated who get breakthrough infections less contagious

Breakthrough COVID-19 cases in vaccinated people may be less likely to spread infection because virus is shed for a shorter period of time as opposed to infections in unvaccinated people.

news.harvard.edu

eople who are vaccinated for SARS-CoV-2 but get breakthrough infections may be less likely to spread the virus because they shed it for a shorter period than unvaccinated people who are infected, according a new study led by Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

 

[American]

and they wonder why Trump supporters dig in deeper.... LOL

Okay let's go there, thanks for opening the door. Republican voters warned against voting for that doddering boob Biden (all the facts were there), but y'all dug in like ticks on a dog.

 

[snakestretcher]

Or maybe the hyperventilating vaxxers could stop acting like chicken little.

Over 5 million dead, globally, and counting. That isn't 'chicken little', it's stark reality.

 

[Overitall]

Over 5 million dead, globally, and counting. That isn't 'chicken little', it's stark reality.

There are nearly 10 million cancer deaths annually. Perhaps if the government tackled it with the same amount of fervent urgency as they have for covid we may have beaten down that stat significantly. Of course the counter argument will be: "Cancer isn't contagious." That's true, but the point you made is over the number of deaths from covid (which globally amounts to .00006 of the population). If it's about deaths then there are plenty of other diseases more worthy of your attention, but they won't give the government the same opportunity to control the sheep. They can't shout from the towers: "The sky is falling!" because we've gotten use to the deaths from other diseases. Covid is a new crisis which they can take advantage of. Fortunately, their attempts to do so are starting to come back to bite them in the ass. People are starting to see through their bs (aka the chicken little routine).

 

[Overitall]

But you cannot reason anybody out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Then please explain what your purpose on DP happens to be.

 

[Overitall]

In western Australia, the premier just issued severe restrictions on the unvaccinated. Not allowed out of house for walkies. Food delivered. No pubs or bars. Heavy fines if breaking the law.
He'll teach the idiots to get vacinnated.

House arrest without a trial. What a novel approach to non-criminal behavior.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I am also vaccinated and boosted. You are running out of ammo, sure you don't want to retreat now?

Retreat from what Court Jester? Retreat from the idea that the hurt feelings of anti-vaxxers are NOT more important than the 800,000 Americans and 3.5+ million worldwide who've died from Covid-19? Retreat from the idea that millions of lives have been saved through our various anti-pandemic counter-measures and policies? Is that what you think I should be retreating from?

I decided to get vaccinated and boosted based on my OWN determination of risk vs reward. I didn't do it for you or anyone else. YOU should do what you want to do, or not want to do. I couldn't care less either way.

Well, guess what? I do care that some people refused to get vaccinated. The reason why I care is that Covid-19 is a virus and it is contagious. That means it spreads from person to person. And it just doesn't spread from person to person. It spreads at an exponential rate. Do you know what that means? That means 1 person spreads it to 10, those 10 spreads it to 10 each, for a total of more than 100 infections. THAT is why people need to get vaccinated. During the Delta wave the vaccines were very effective at reducing the spread of the virus within a population. And what that means is this: during the Delta wave tens of thousands of Americans died as a direct result of selfish and belligerent anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated. So I care. Even if anti-vaxxers don't. A pandemic is like a major war. In major wars we do things like institute a draft and mobilize our entire population. In this case, the enemy is not a hostile foreign country, but instead a virus. So this notion you have of others being able to do what they want, and you not caring either way, doesn't really work very well. The implicit compromise you're making is that you're okay with people dying unnecessarily as the result of others refusing to get vaccinated. That's the cost you're asking everyone else to pay because you couldn't care less either way about someone getting vaccinated.

And, I'm sorry, I know it hurts the feelings of anti-vaxxers, but when someone expresses an opinion like this, they absolutely should be criticized.

How does that make me immoral? If I'm vaccinated and boosted

If someone is vaccinated, they've done their job. Also, please keep in mind, I'm talking about anti-vaxxers, generally, and the people who peddle anti-vax propaganda, generally.

How has vaccines, boosters, and masking kept people from getting the current variant of covid, other than it hasn't.

You're right. It hasn't. And we cannot blame people who refuse to get vaccinated now.

We can blame them for refusing to get vaccinated during the Delta wave when the vaccine was effective and also easily accessible.

Drunk driving is a crime. People who choose not to be vaccinated are free to make up their own minds

Drunk driving is a crime because our society decided to make it a crime.

I don't think people who choose not to be vaccinated should be free to make up their own minds. I think we should use the government to coerce or force people to comply with vaccination. And I think we should do it even if anti-vaxxers don't like it. I think if we don't use the power of the government to compel them to get vaccinated we should use social pressure and stigmatize people who act selfishly and refuse to get vaccinated.

The article referenced in the OP is great advice if you are okay with people not doing what you want. So, if someone is going to be an asshole about something, and you don't necessarily care about what it is they are doing, it makes sense to not treat them harshly. Because the truth is, berating someone for anything isn't going to work most of the time. But in a situation where someone's behavior needs to be corrected, because the consequence of their behavior can be impactful -- like, for instance, refusing to get vaccinated during the middle of a ****ing pandemic -- I think it's not only appropriate, but it's necessary, to draw a line in the sand and make sure they know there will be a high cost for their bad behavior, be it legal, be it professional, be it social.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

If somebody feels they need a nanny state to handle all their needs, China is a probably a great place for anyone who is into that.

Most of what we are talking about here doesn't apply anymore because Omicron variant is infecting everyone. But, I don't think the people encouraging vaccinations should back down from this. And I think the anti-vaxxers need to get over their hurt feelings and stop whining and stop being little bitches about it.

I agree with the American system. I don't like the Chinese system. But our system doesn't forbid collective action. We tax ourselves to build things like roads and bridges, for instance. We create laws and organize law enforcement to make sure that citizens are not doing things like killing each other, stealing from each other, etc. I mean, let's say your neighbor's house is on fire. Let's imagine a situation where your neighbor's house is on fire. Are you going to walk over to their burning house and start badgering them about the nanny state? NO! Of course not! What do you do? You call the Fire Dept! I mean, come on. Depending on the nature of the fire you might even personally help them.

We have even forcefully compelled citizens to act. For instance, our country has done things like institute drafts to compel citizens to risk their lives for the benefit of their country, and we do this, against their will. We've done this several times throughout our history.

So, no, I don't agree with this notion that forcing or coercing people to get vaccinated for the benefit of all of society is a bad thing.

And I know you agree with everything else I've written. I know you are okay with fire departments helping members of a community. I know you are okay with taxing people to build roads and bridges for the benefit of entire communities. I know you are probably with the concept of the draft too, depending on the circumstances. These are all things we now take for granted.

I think the main disagreement between us is that you are okay with paying the high cost of coddling and catering to the feelings of selfish, belligerent assholes who refuse to get vaccinated. The cost that you are okay with paying is the lives of the tens of thousands of people who unnecessarily died during the Delta wave.