AND YOU WANT MY GUNS???

[Rucker61]

The worship of guns is not amusing, it's disturbing.

The desire to exercise a protected right isn't "worship".

And it's costing the rest of us freedom loving Americans a bundle of money.

The Economic Cost of Gun Violence

"In an average year, gun violence in America kills nearly 40,000 people, injures more than twice as many, and costs our nation $280 billion. This staggering figure is higher than the entire US Department of Veterans Affairs’ annual budget. Without a doubt, the human cost of gun violence—the people who are taken from us and the survivors whose lives are forever altered—is the most devastating. But examining the serious economic consequences of gun violence is paramount to understanding just how extensive and expensive this crisis is."

Are rights affected by "economic costs" of someone abusing them?

 

[jaeger19]

You and I will never agree on this. I am glad some people didn't stand by while the police refused to stop three days of rioting.

Yes . I will never agree that Rittenhouse actions in anyway made the situation better.
How many people had " emotes killed that night"
Oh right it was Rittenhouse that killed three people.
Police were there. They told him to leave the area.
He mad a bad situation much worse. And three people got shot because of it.
Stop living in vigilante fantasy land.

 

[osinneins]

Except if you think logically... your premise doesn;t really make that much sense. For one..the assumes that suicide ideation..or suicide "sudden impulse".. only occurs mainly in the home.. where a firearm is READILY available.

Not at all.

So.. suicide ideation and impulse.. doesn't happen when you are driving home.. and you could easily speed up and drive into a lampost killing yourself instantly?

I can only show you the studies. Like this one:

FIREARM AVAILABILITY AND SUICIDE - Suicide Prevention and Intervention - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This pat.. but but its just impulse and a gun makes it easier... doesn;t pass the logic test.

Except that appears to be what the studies shows and what mental health professionals say. Now, obviously, you being a trained medical doctor would have some experience with this, but the studies show that it appears to be a factor.

AS far as the NRA becoming a leader of mental health? Sorry but again.. its not their charter. Its not what their non profit does...

But they do talk about it after every mass shooting. It is in the interest of gun-rights organizations to ensure that their issues are not overwhelmed by things that they, themselves, note are an issue directly impacting them.

And I question why you aren;t saying that groups like Everytown, Giffords organization... Brady organization etc.. aren;t also held to the same standard.

Sure, I have no problem with all of them chipping in. But most of them are not trying to necessarily keep more guns available. But, yes, the more the merrier.

 

[osinneins]

Well.. likely its that people that wish to commit suicide.. obtain or use their firearms since they are available. Its not impulse.. its their plan.
Studies show that those that are more likely to commit suicide.. CHOOSE methods that are more likely to result in death.. such as jumping from high buildings or bridges, slamming cars into poles, and yes.. firearms.

They choose manners that are more likely to cause death. It may not be simply availability but choice.

The studies seem reasonably clear on this point.

 

[osinneins]

I appreciate you sharing that. As a veteran with PTSD I struggled with those thoughts often and kept a loaded gun by the bedside just in case. The best thing I ever did was unload that gun and lock it and the ammo up separately.
When in the service I was a base photographer and would get called out by the Security Police to document suicides scenes. I wish those images on no one, but imagine the harm it would do to a loved one when they came home and found their spouse or child after a bullet or shotgun load went through their head. I lost a close friend this way many years ago and his wife still suffers from the trauma of finding his body in their bedroom. Suicide comes with a high cost of suffering for those left behind.

Stay strong. I honestly wish there was a real way Americans could truly thank the men and women in uniform who serve on our behalf. I hold out the hope that one day we will divert some of our massive defense spending to actually taking care of our men and women in uniform, even after they leave service. Mental health is chief among that need.

 

[poppopfox]

The desire to exercise a protected right isn't "worship".

To many, it is. A sampling below.

Gun Church That Worships With AR-15s

America's worship of guns

gun worship as a cult

should gun worship define American patriotism

 

[Rucker61]

To many, it is. A sampling below.

Gun Church That Worships With AR-15s

This is an exception to the rule, and you can't tie a single death to these people.

America's worship of guns

gun worship as a cult

should gun worship define American patriotism

View attachment 67367458

The rest of this are just farcical opinions on "gun worship", and they're the kind of opinions that keeps you from being taken seriously. It certainly doesn't add to a useful debate on gun control.

 

[jaeger19]

Masks work only not in actual comparison studies.

Multiple comparison studies studying mask wearing and non mask wearing in similar demographics showed that masks work for source control.
Its a fact.

The cdc information you say I can't comprehend said that the n95 mask releases 70 to 80 percent of virus with each exhale and that only 10 percent or so are needed to infect.

And as explained.. when an infected person comes into contact with a person without a mask.. the infection rate IS NOT 100%. Not even close. Something around 37% (thought delta and omicron now are higher). Which means that even if the mask reduces a small amount of viral load. that reduction could be significant in reducing infection.
Which is supported by multiple comparison studies comparing similar populations before and after mask wearing. Or similar populations with mask use vs non mask use for individuals in the same population.

Even you admit the mask can't prevent the virus from coming in.

Well duh. the mucosa of the eyes are not covered.

Masks of inferior material or that are not properly fitted are even worst than the above numbers.

And yet.. studies again have found that mask wearing works as a significant source control. You just can;t deny the science. Well.. you try.. but you just fall flat on your face. this is why you righties are science deniers.

Facial hair makes mask sealing impossible. Ear hoops make mask sealing impossible......the most common masks you see are around the ear hooks.

And again.. studies show that mask wearing reduces the chance of the person infecting others.

Plenty more proof of mask failure if you need it.

no.. you have no proof what so ever. You consistently deny the science with your ridiculous meaningless assertions devoid of even basic understanding of biology, virology, or the use of PPE.

As for your source control claim......if in actual comparison examples between masked and unmasked areas there is virtually no difference in infection rates then it's pretty safe to conclude that the mask is not reducing the infected giving it to others.

ONLY if you compare areas with similar demographics. Again.. that science thingy. WHEN areas with similar demographics and the same demographics were studied.. ? Guess what... masks were found to be significant for source control.

 

[jaeger19]

If it was working then masked areas would have much reduced cases and they simply don't.

nope.. again. you are denying science. You cannot with validity compare areas with disparate populations.

Ivermectin......."Among patients with non-severe COVID-19 and no risk factors for severe disease receiving a single 400 mcg/kg dose of ivermectin within 72 h of fever or cough onset there was no difference in the proportion of PCR positives. There was however a marked reduction of self-reported anosmia/hyposmia, a reduction of cough and a tendency to lower viral loads and lower IgG titers which warrants assessment in larger trials."

Exactly. there is currently no good evidence supporting the use of ivermectin for Covid 19.

Natural immunity has been shown to be effective. What "us morons" do understand and you smart folks don't is that folks don't seek to get sick just to get natural immunity however when they do become infected and they do beat the disease they are naturally immune.

Umm moron. to enjoy that sweet sweet natural immunity you crow about... you have to risk hospitalization or death. Sweet baby jesus.. you righties have no clue.

Your side, the suppoesed smart side, refuses to count these folks as protected.

Because.. 1. There is no way to know what level of infection the person has had. They may have had very little exposure to the virus and ended up with very little or no symptoms and thus very little immunity.
2. We know that that vaccinated AND natural immunity wane. Vaccinated people however can get a booster. \

Omicron is a blessing according to experts because it gives us the chance for natural immunity without the higher potential for a severe case.

We don;t know that yet. Again. IF omicron is half as severe as delta.. but twice as infectious.. it means that the same number of people could end up dead or in the hospital.

I just had a "cross over" infection. My boys both infected. All cases were mild and all of us are healthy. It was the softest "flu" I have ever seen in my lifetime for all of us. Only I had the vaccine. Pfizer both shots no booster.

Hospitals won't become overwhelmed IF your party gets serious about regeneron. DeSantis used it to empty Florida ICU's.

Seriously dude.. just stop.. you righties have no clue. Desantis doesn't know a dang thing about medicine. And neither do you.

 

[jaeger19]

The studies seem reasonably clear on this point.

The latest studies do seem clear its not as impulsive as previously assumed.

 

[Rich2018]

Bwaaah.. your opinion is noted and dismissed as stupid.

Of course...I would expect no other response from a gun lover. And certainly no one as dishonest as you.

So your theory is to put it into the hands of the criminals whether I die or not. That I have to hope that they don;t mean to kill or injure me but only take my money.. Sure.. that makes sense...NOT.

Yet it remains the "official" advice of the US government, regardless of which party is in control
So take up their "senseless" advice with them.

Like I said. Its better to have the option... and be able to defend yourself. Than not have the option and die.

Whatever - just continue to get your advice from watching movies.

Because you have no clue about firearms or anything to do with crime, criminal intent, etc.

LMAO at the comment from a clueless poster.

I already cited several studies of defensive use of firearms...

You trust them, I don't

Thats not what the studies of criminals show.

What "studies" ?
I think they'd rather rob an elderly woman who was armed than the Rock even if they knew he wasn't armed.

Well... Your opinion is not worth a hill of beans...

As if you thought yours was!

...unlikely to happen given any type of situational awareness. However.. if that is to occur.. there would be likely better options than simply waiting to be killed.

Like handing over your wallet. Nothing in it is worth dying for.

I have already had to defend myself from people attempting to kill me with knives.. and other deadly weapons.

Yeah but you also claimed to be a part owner of a gun store, a cop and have a medical degree and treat patients
So, I'm kinda immune to your lies by now.

...so now you don;t want my father to have a firearm.. but want convicted felons to have their gun rights restored. Got it.

No you don't, though your comprehension level remains constantly low
I don't want either your father or the convicted felon to have guns, but if either insists on having one, then they should have access to the same ones. ie: the exempted firearms.

And we have done better.. and crime has gone down.

Shootings are increasing in number.

Some plans are good.. some are not. Like the democratic insistence on gun control. If frankly they left that alone.. and were pro gun. They would garner so much more support.

Their gun control ranks amongst their best policies
You lack of knowledge about any of their economic policies is both significant and noted.

...you are clueless about firearms or pretty much criminality or self defense. It completely shows. Hollywood is actually shameful.

Yes that's where you source your firearm wisdom
Clueless doesn't begin to describe your gun knowledge.

Frankly you are the one that has hollywood dreams where muggers who press a knife up against your throat.. only want your money. Etc.

Really, what Hollywood movie would that be ?
And it would more likely be your ribs, not your throat...not that you have any idea of what a street mugging looks like in your plastic, sanitized world.

 

[Rich2018]

Suicide would not decrease if guns were unavailable. That is uncontested.

No, it's the truth, for reasons explained and that you wouldn't understand
Proof, if ever that we needed any, that your claims to have a medical degree are just a pack of lies.

Well.. you haven;t exposed anything since I have backed up what I have said with citations from medical journals.

Except you haven't
And you expose you own lies more than anyone else could.

Nothing disgusting about it. Its literally a supported hypothesis in medical studies that there is a difference between the mentality of those that commit suicide and those that attempt it.

No it's not and your continued lies regarding this is beyond shameful
Your disgusting attitude is yet more proof of your lies

People who survive a suicide attempt, can in no way be dismissed as attention seekers who just did not want to die.

There are also medical providers that understand...

No more of your disgusting lies.

...I opposed democrats like yourself that use suicide as a means to push your anti gun agenda.

You just oppose democrats because you don't give a damn about the poor and sick
You just want your guns

(rest of your disgusting post ignored).

 

[Rich2018]

No, I show indifference to your shitty arguments to push your even shittier agenda.

My approach has always been better mental health care in the US to solve gun violence issues, particularly mass shootings. It would impact suicides as well.

Sure its uncontestable because its also unprovable.

Below the sewer line. You are using suicides as a tool to push your agenda.

Enough of your diatribe and Ad-Hom attacks

Your worthless opinion is ignored.

 

[jaeger19]

Not at all.

Absolutely.

I can only show you the studies. Like this one:

FIREARM AVAILABILITY AND SUICIDE - Suicide Prevention and Intervention - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Exactly. Notice that the study you presented wasn't on suicide.. it was on "gun suicide rates"... well duh. If people become suicidal.. and decide they are going to kill themselves and are extremely serious about it, they choose methods that will be most successful. IF they can obtain a firearm.. they will likely use it. No one denies this. The question is whether the suicide would have occured AT ALL.. if there was no firearm. And that doesn;t pan out. Since Japan.. has a higher suicide rate than the US. Despite having almost zero guns. Same with Korea.
Thats the problem with many studies using "gun death". gun suicide and Gun crime.. as variables. They are not a valid measure of safety or of suicide.

Look at it this way. Say you wanted to study the effect of bicycle use in the community.
We both decide to do a study on two communities that are very similar.. except one society has a high degree of bicycle use, and one society has no bicycles what so ever.

You design your study and the variables you look at are overall accident severities, overall health measures like obesity, heart disease etc,.
When you compare the two communities (one with bikes the other without bikes).. you find that lo and behold.. the one that has bicycles use has fewer accidents and fewer severe accidents (possibly due to fewer cars being used versus bicycles).. and you find the health measure of the community with bicycles are significantly better than those that don;t have bicycles. You find lower instances of asthma and respiratory disease, lower rates of obesity, and in general a longer life span.
So you conclude that bicycles may be beneficial to a community. At the very least you conclude that they are not detrimental.

When I design my study.. the variables I choose to look at are the number of bike accidents and the number of bike deaths that occur. And lo and behold... I FIND that the community that has bicycles? Is more likely to have bike accidents and bike deaths than the community that doesn't have bicycles. So I conclude that bicycles are dangerous to society and must be banned..

now.. AndI want an answer. Which study do you think is most valid?

 

[Rich2018]

Always

i said reality, and not my mind.

yep

not according to the written record of this forum

IYO.

 

[jaeger19]

No, it's the truth, for reasons explained and that you wouldn't understand
Proof, if ever that we needed any, that your claims to have a medical degree are just a pack of lies.



Except you haven't
And you expose you own lies more than anyone else could.



No it's not and your continued lies regarding this is beyond shameful
Your disgusting attitude is yet more proof of your lies

People who survive a suicide attempt, can in no way be dismissed as attention seekers who just did not want to die.



No more of your disgusting lies.



You just oppose democrats because you don't give a damn about the poor and sick
You just want your guns

(rest of your disgusting post ignored).

YAwn.. we have been over this.
I presented the facts.. you present personal attacks. Its okay.. we get it. You really have no clue and just want to use suicide with guns to push your agenda.
By the way.. the only one dismissing the seriousness of suicide or suicide attempts is you. In particular ignoring those that commit suicide with something other than a gun.
And dismissing the seriousness of a suicide attempt as just an "impulsive act".. the people won;t do again.
Suicide attempts are serious issues and not just some "impulsive act".. that won;t happen again.

 

[soylentgreen]

What part about "concealed" don't you understand?

I'd say it's more idiotic to characterize the current state of the US as "giving everyone a gun".

Do you have an update on the number of MSSAs that your government has confiscated since 2019?

What part about a childs curiosity do you not understand. Or are you that ashamed of your actions that you need to hide it from the children? Patheetic.

I would say you are desperate to pick on the words give everyone a gun.

Do you have any reason to link those numbers with guns?

 

[soylentgreen]

I have tried explaining our position even giving you figures that prove that there is justification for being armed. You don't care! I have tried explaining that one day it could happen to you and you would be left to beg for mercy. You don't care! I have shared the experiences of other regular citizens I have had contact with through my business which proves that IT can and DOES happen regularly. You don't care!

So basically nothing I say can or will change your mind. And now I don't care!

I carry a gun day in and day out without a problem. That gun doesn't hurt a flea and doesn't cause you any effort or harm. I do this because the data says the need might arise just as with car, home, and health insurance. Despite your insistence that bad things never happen, I see that they do in fact happen. I see the statistics. I see the news. I see the victims. Most now buying guns BTW. I even hear folks like you claiming how much gun crime and murder is in this country yet you still don't get it. So after seeing all this I want to have the ability to prevent or end any attack that might happen to me or mine. This is why your attacks get destroyed. It's why your claims of fear mongering are moronic. It's why you will be a HELPLESS victim eventually.

Bottom line is I have provided substance proving a potential need. YOU have made claims of gun violence that prove a potential need. So either YOU are fear mongering or we both know that there is a potential need. I chose to carry you don't. Given the above information it's easy to see who is making the smarter decision.

So basically your argument is that america is a crime ridden shithole. And you actually think a gun will help

 

[soylentgreen]

Because nobody including you can tell me when a potentially lethal encounter will happen thats why.

When Marjory Stoneman Douglas high-school was being shot up, I was visiting my wife at her High School. It was valentine's day. I brought 10 pizzas from Lil Ceasars for her to distribute to worthy students because she loves doing that more than flowers. At one point the kids had all gone and only a handful of teachers were left in the room. They began to tell the story about a kid who threatened to kill a faculty member with a hammer on social media and the police did nothing except ban the kid from having a backpack on campus. I remember one teacher saying that she was scared of the kid and she said his eyes were dead and shark like. An example I have used myself to describe a stone cold evil person. Anyway I left the school and got home only to see that MSD high was being attacked by an active shooter. It can happen and it does happen. Currently I am not legally allowed to carry on school grounds. So visiting the wife happens unarmed. I am like you while visiting, a helpless victim!

With psycho kids threatening to kill teachers and others plotting school shootings around the country and you don't see a need to carry a gun at school lol. Some things can't be fixed and apparently your thought process is one of them.

BTW the kid that shot up the school also had his backpack privileges removed the year earlier.

Now you have a sensible reason for having a gun while dropping kids off at school. I know.......you don't care lol.

Because no one but you can be scared enough to buy into a propaganda of fear.

I feel sorry for you and your fellow pro gun crowd. To live in fear and call it freedom is just about as ridiculous as you can get.

 

[jaeger19]

Of course...I would expect no other response from a gun lover. And certainly no one as dishonest as you.

The only one dishonest here is you. Look its cool.. Its not like I expected you to be able to understand something you have no clue about.
I have three generations that hunt together and have a close relationship with each other because of our hunting culture. Hunting is an activity that brings most families much closer because generations can participate and its part of our human cultural heritage.
You don't get it. I feel sad for you.

Yet it remains the "official" advice of the US government, regardless of which party is in control
So take up their "senseless" advice with them.

ACtually not based on studies. As far as mass shooters. The official advice from the US government is that when flee or hide is exhausted... you should fight. Would you rather fight with a sharpened pencil.. or a firearm.? You silly man.

Whatever - just continue to get your advice from watching movies.

Yeah.. I have been in real world scenarios. You are the one that thinks defensive use of a gun entails shooting the gun out of another persons hand.
Cripes.

LMAO at the comment from a clueless poster.

that funny.

You trust them, I don't

Because you deny the science. ITs not about facts for you.. its about emotion. thats why you need to make this personal

What "studies" ?
I think they'd rather rob an elderly woman who was armed than the Rock even if they knew he wasn't armed.

STudies on criminal behavior.

Like handing over your wallet. Nothing in it is worth dying for.

Very true. You act like the ONLY option that a person with a firearm has.. to defend themselves is to use the firearm. Thats neither factual nor logical. Everything depends on the situation. The difference is that a person with a firearm has the option to defend themselves a heck of lot better if their life is worth fighting for.

Yeah but you also claimed to be a part owner of a gun store, a cop and have a medical degree and treat patients
So, I'm kinda immune to your lies by now.

Yep.. so? Seriously man.. i have to laugh that you think that somehow being part owner of a gun store and a doctor and a reserve police officer are mutually exclusive. You must live a very dull life. I further feel sorry for you.

No you don't, though your comprehension level remains constantly low
I don't want either your father or the convicted felon to have guns, but if either insists on having one, then they should have access to the same ones. ie: the exempted firearms.

Yeah.. You just admitted that a convicted dangerous felon should have the same access to firearms as my father. Sooo.. you would restrict my dad from what he can currently own.. and give access to a dangerous felon to guns that he cannot currently legally own.
You are so silly. Its like you cannot understand what you just wrote.

Shootings are increasing in number.

Sure.. some times they go up.. sometimes down.. its simply not correlated with gun sales.

Their gun control ranks amongst their best policies
You lack of knowledge about any of their economic policies is both significant and noted.

Umm we didn;t discuss democrats economic policies. However, in general I agree with many of them. Particularly improving education, free public university education for deserving students and improving infrastructure. However.. according to you.. these ARE NOT part of the democratic platform. So please show me that these policies are NOT part of the democratic platform.
AS I note.. these policies would likely be quite popular among republicans and independents but are unfortunately overshadowed by the stupidity of the democrats insistence on gun control. Face it.. you are a drain on the democratic party and are part of the reason that the democrats will likely lose the house next election.

 

[jaeger19]

es that's where you source your firearm wisdom
Clueless doesn't begin to describe your gun knowledge.

Yeah.. I pretty much have shown how hollywood lacks firearm wisdom. As your idol.. gun control advocate Baldwin demonstrated. What morons

Really, what Hollywood movie would that be ?

Gosh.. just about everyone one in which there is a firearm. Lets see.. .. every film in which the police captain says 'hand over your gun and badge".. and the police officer pulls his service weapon out with HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER and POINTS THE FIREARM AT HIS CHIEF... while he SLAMS THE FIREARM DOWN ON THE TABLE.
John wick? Don;t get me started. I think the dumbest thing is when they surround MS parker and then shoot her and none of the people beyond her get hit with a pass through. Sheesh.. how dumb. In fact.. every show where the good guy shoots the bad guy in a crowd and the bullet never passes through and hits a bystander behind them. There are never richochets that hit innocent bystanders. The list is endless.

And it would more likely be your ribs, not your throat...not that you have any idea of what a street mugging looks like in your plastic, sanitized world.

Sure.. whatever man.. you are certainly no expert in criminal behavior. By the way.. I have been in two attempted muggings, one in which the person had a knife. I have been attacked with a knife twice and had to defend myself. Not to mention the numerous altercations I had as a reserve officer having to arrest people who resisted.
Look dude... its obvious that you trust criminals who are mugging you.. to not kill you. While you fear my father, a retired school teacher who has never been in a fight.. will suddenly start shooting people.
You just don;t make sense. And thats why logical people don;t listen to your anti gun rhetoric.

 

[jaeger19]

Because no one but you can be scared enough to buy into a propaganda of fear.

I feel sorry for you and your fellow pro gun crowd. To live in fear and call it freedom is just about as ridiculous as you can get.

Umm... you are the one that lives in fear. You took property away from law abiding citizens just because of your fear.
Good little sheeple..

 

[Rucker61]

Because no one but you can be scared enough to buy into a propaganda of fear.

I feel sorry for you and your fellow pro gun crowd. To live in fear and call it freedom is just about as ridiculous as you can get.

Is it fear that drives gun control advocates to advocate for more gun control?

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes . I will never agree that Rittenhouse actions in anyway made the situation better.
How many people had " emotes killed that night"
Oh right it was Rittenhouse that killed three people.
Police were there. They told him to leave the area.
He mad a bad situation much worse. And three people got shot because of it.
Stop living in vigilante fantasy land.

He didn't kill three people. He killed two mopes-one an ass raping chester, and he disarmed (really) another mope. I am glad there are two less assholes on the street

 

[TurtleDude]

Because no one but you can be scared enough to buy into a propaganda of fear.

I feel sorry for you and your fellow pro gun crowd. To live in fear and call it freedom is just about as ridiculous as you can get.

Let us discuss what TRULY causes a foreigner to spend hours upon hours complaining about our gun ownership and wanting to get rid of the second amendment and ban guns (a claim he used to deny but finally came clean)