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And You Are?

vergiss said:
Are you even against birth control when it's prescribed for medical reasons, such as to treat endometriosis?


If you're having sex...yes. Hormonal BC can act as an abortifacient. Since I believe life begins at conception--yes--I'm against it if a life is threatened by its use.
 
What about condoms? No hormones involved at all.
 
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vergiss said:
What about condoms? No hormones involved at all.

As I said...I have personal views that are based on my theological perception of the issue..I can accept that not everyone will agree with that perception concerning barrier methods....But NFP is more reliable than condoms anyway. Why risk it if you don't want to get pregnant?
 
What about using something definite to prevent pregnancy in a woman whose life would be in danger as a result? My grandmother was one of the first women put on the pill after having my mother and aunt (the two surviving babies out of many pregnancies, one stillbirth and one baby that lived only five hours), because another pregnancy would not only probably fail, but pose serious physical risks. I also know of a woman who cannot get pregnant because of a condition which causes her lungs to collapse from physical exertion - including something as simple as flying. Surely the high risk to them outweighs the remote possibility of conception and miscarriage before it's even noticed.

Sure, they could stop sex altogether. However, both these women were married, and even strict Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that sex between man and wife is a wonderful and sacred thing.
 
vergiss said:
What about using something definite to prevent pregnancy in a woman whose life would be in danger as a result? My grandmother was one of the first women put on the pill after having my mother and aunt (the two surviving babies out of many pregnancies, one stillbirth and one baby that lived only five hours), because another pregnancy would not only probably fail, but pose serious physical risks. I also know of a woman who cannot get pregnant because of a condition which causes her lungs to collapse from physical extertion - including something as simple as flying. Surely the high risk to them outweighs the remote possibility of conception and miscarriage before it's even noticed.

Sure, they could stop sex altogether. However, both these women are married, and even strict Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that sex between man and wife is a wonderful and sacred thing.

A woman has a right to life too--but she doesn't have a right to be indescriminate about creating life only to destroy it. That's why I think hormonal BC would still be wrong...but if a woman must defend her life from immenant death...she has a right to do that...and could seek medical treatment that preserves her life--including abortion. However--I think the moral cases for that are exceedingly RARE.
 
vergiss said:
sex between man and wife is a wonderful and sacred thing.

Exactly...man and WIFE--committed.

and yes...in my religion it is so important that an impotent man is not free to marry because he CAN'T have sex with his wife and it is her right.
 
Sorry I haven't reploed recently, school has really been a pain, and I will probably have time this friday or sunday, sorry for the delay guys.
 
Felicity said:
Exactly...man and WIFE--committed.

and yes...in my religion it is so important that an impotent man is not free to marry because he CAN'T have sex with his wife and it is her right.

But Viagra...
 
vergiss said:
But Viagra...
There are some types of impotence that are not fixable....
 
Well, save for his penis being chopped off in an unfortunate machete accident, I'm sure other forms are eventually treatable with the right therapy/medication.
 
vergiss said:
Well, save for his penis being chopped off in an unfortunate machete accident,.


:eek: ...could happen....:smile:
 
Felicity said:
vergiss said:
Are you even against birth control when it's prescribed for medical reasons, such as to treat endometriosis?
If you're having sex...yes. Hormonal BC can act as an abortifacient.
And thus the radical agenda of the prolifers is exposed, the eradication of birth control pills.

So when you are arguing against abortion, you are actually dishonest (Well, golly gee, no surprise there). You are trying to claim you argue against abortion, when in fact, you go much further and argue against contraception, argue against ANY sex not for procreation, against even married people using contraception.

How many prolifers here agrees with such an extremely radical position?

I am going to set up a poll, as this just seems to wigged out:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=4405

Since I believe life begins at conception--yes--I'm against it if a life is threatened by its use.
Yes, you believe that any hydatidiform mole is "life."
 
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Felicity said:
But NFP is more reliable than condoms anyway.
I already provided the SCIENTIFIC DATA that directly disproved your claim. So now you are knowingly lying (Again).
 
Felicity said:
and yes...in my religion it is so important that an impotent man is not free to marry because he CAN'T have sex with his wife and it is her right.
Fascinating. I have never heard of this before. Could you elaborate or provide a link confirming this?
 
steen said:
And thus the radical agenda of the prolifers is exposed, the eradication of birth control pills.

So when you are arguing against abortion, you are actually dishonest (Well, golly gee, no surprise there). You are trying to claim you argue against abortion, when in fact, you go much further and argue against contraception, argue against ANY sex not for procreation, against even married people using contraception.
Have you totally lost it, steen? I mean...I won't be my usual snidely charming self if you're on the edge....;)

While it's true that I am against hormonal BC because it aborts--and I'm against other forms of contraception personally due to religious convictions...I sure as heck ain't against sex for fun! You know that's true from stuff I discussed about the proper use of NFP...so when you say something you KNOW isn't true....what is that?

How many prolifers here agrees with such an extremely radical position?

I am going to set up a poll, as this just seems to wigged out:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=4405

Do you think the truth changes by majority vote--big whoop.

Yes, you believe that any hydatidiform mole is "life."

There you go again...you KNOW I don't think "ANY" mole is--complete moles aren't---partial moles are human but very very deformed.
 
steen said:
I already provided the SCIENTIFIC DATA that directly disproved your claim. So now you are knowingly lying (Again).


Ummmm...and when I provided the rebuttal....wasn't that when you disappeared for a while.....would you like me to repost it? Oh...Ok since you asked so nicely...
 
Remember....from this thread: http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?p=101272#post101272

HERE YOU GO.... :)

Principles & Practice
The Future of Professional Education in Natural Family Planning
http://jognn.awhonn.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/34

Four general methods of NFP are used and taught in the United States. The calendar rhythm and basal body temperature (BBT) methods are considered to be old methods, whereas the two so-called modern methods are referred to as the ovulation method (OM or cervical mucus only) and the symptothermal method (STM). The modern methods also are sometimes referred to as single and multiple indicator methods.

.......Modern variations of the calendar methods have recently been developed that stipulate a fixed number of days of fertility in the menstrual cycle (e.g., days 8–19) and the use of a simple bead-counting system to help women track their cycles. A recent study of 478 women users of the standard days method of NFP from three countries (Bolivia, Peru, and the Philippines) indicated that the fixed day method had a cumulative] probability of pregnancy of 4.75% with correct use and an 11.96% probability of pregnancy with typical use (Arevalo, Jennings, & Sinai, 2002 ).

.......In the first prospective effectiveness study of BBT, reported in 1968, 502 couples had a typical use effectiveness of 6.6 pregnancies per 100 woman-years when intercourse was confined to the post-BBT shift period (after the postovulatory rise in body temperature) and 19.3 pregnancies when intercourse occurred in both the pre- and postovulatory phases of the cycle (Marshall, 1968 ). Correct use of BBT only as a postovulatory method will result in a method effectiveness of close to 99% (Hatcher et al., 1998 ).

Both the single indicator, mucus-only methods, and the multiple indicator, symptothermal methods, were developed in the last half of the 20th century. Single indicator methods use the cyclical estrogenic changes of cervical mucus to determine the beginning, peak, and end of the fertile phase of the menstrual cycle. A five-country World Health Organization (WHO) study (1981) of 725 ovulation method users yielded a method-related pregnancy rate of 2.2% and a typical use pregnancy rate of 22.3%, of which 15.4% was due to conscious departure from the rules. There are a number of variants of the single indicator cervical mucus method, including a standardized form known as the Creighton Model (CrM) system and a simplified version, the Modified Mucus method. Researchers are investigating the effectiveness of a simple 2-day algorithm for the mucus-only system (2 consecutive dry days without mucus indicates an infertile state) in avoiding pregnancy (Jennings & Sinai, 2001 ; Sinai, Jennings, & Arevalo, 1999 ).

The combination of several natural indicators of fertility, including cervical mucus, BBT shift, calendar formulas, and cervical changes, are used in the various forms of the symptothermal methods (STMs). There are only a few comparative studies on NFP effectiveness. Some consider the STM to be more effective when used to avoid pregnancy than the single-indicator mucus method (Kambic, 2000 ). A recent European study that compared a double-check STM with a single-check STM found a 2.6% unintended pregnancy rate with the double-check and an 8.5% unintended pregnancy rate with the single-check method (Freundl, 1999 ). The double-check method involves use of a calendar day formula and the observation of cervical mucus to determine the beginning of the fertile period and two biological markers to determine the end of the fertile phase (i.e., the peak in cervical mucus and temperature changes). The single-check method uses one biological indicator (cervical mucus) to determine the beginning of the fertile period and one indicator (temperature) to determine the end of the fertile period.
.......

Few health care professionals have in-depth knowledge, appreciation, and understanding of natural family planning.

...... NFP methods can be very effective in helping couples to both achieve and avoid pregnancy (Hilgers & Stanford, 1998 ; Howard & Stanford, 1999 ). However, very few studies on NFP effectiveness have been clinical trials with comparison groups (Lamprecht & Trussell, 1997 ). Adherence to NFP method instruction and spousal support are key factors in high effectiveness rates (Tommaselli, Guida, & Palomba, 2000 ). There is also the realization that the older calendar methods of NFP might be more effective than was previously thought (Kambic, 2000 ).

__________________________________________________ ______________

The Allen Guttmacher Institute http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html , rates “periodic abstinence”— which lumps ALL sorts of Fertility Awareness methods together—with “perfect use” from 1.0-9.0 failure rate, and a “typical use” failure rate of 25.0. Of course—as noted in the above article—these methods require commitment and self control from the users.



Quote:
So then it is good that I wasn't merely making assertion, but actually were dispensing actual facts. You should try it sometimes. Then you wouldn't have to be called on as the liar you are all the time.

Do you take it all back now, steen? I won’t hold my breath.........
 
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steen said:
Fascinating. I have never heard of this before. Could you elaborate or provide a link confirming this?


I'm Catholic steen...It's not like it's some weird freaky sect. Actually...we have a whole country....:rofl
 
Felicity said:
Ummmm...and when I provided the rebuttal....wasn't that when you disappeared for a while.....would you like me to repost it? Oh...Ok since you asked so nicely...

Hmmmmm....and now your gone again....interesting.....:rolleyes:
 
Felicity said:
There you go again...you KNOW I don't think "ANY" mole is--complete moles aren't---partial moles are human but very very deformed.
Yes, I am aware that you hold that incredibly stupid and silly notion. It is even more wigged-out than most prolifers, other than the one case where a prolife loon claimed that all hydatidiform moles could end up as babies if a miracle happened (Back on the delphiforum's AoG site).

It is so really and genuinely crazy that I thought it should be immortalized in my sig. Every time you repeat that insanity, I feel a hilarious thrill coming on; knowing that prolifers really are showing how truly crazy they are.
 
Felicity said:
The Future of Professional Education in Natural Family Planning
Luckily, the Cochrane Database has done a review of this (If you don't know what the Cochrane database is, you really can't have the scientific discussion about OB/GYN and neonatal issue discussions):

Authors Grimes DA. Gallo MF. Grigorieva V. Nanda K. Schulz KF.

Institution Family Health International, P. O. Box 13950, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27709, USA. dgrimes@fhi.org

Title Fertility awareness-based methods for contraception. [Review] [31 refs]

Source Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews. (4):CD004860, 2004.


REVIEWERS' CONCLUSIONS: The comparative efficacy of fertility awareness-based methods of contraception remains unknown. Despite intensive training and ongoing support, most participants in these trials discontinued prematurely. Contraceptive methods should be properly evaluated, preferably in randomized controlled trials, before adoption and dissemination.


As you know, the Cochrane database reviews are the final and ultimate authority. There simply isn't any higher authority in the field.

As for your author, he has not published anything in the medical, scientific journals, as a search on medline will assure you off.

Now, I did a search on your author of this article, which was not published in a medical, scientific journal. Here is his bio page:
http://www.marquette.edu/nursing/Fehring.html

Now, if you will notice:
"COORDINATOR/PRESENTER:

National Advisory Board for NFP to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Board Member of University Faculty for Life "


Uhum, just another fundamentalist pushing his agenda under the false claim of science.

So lets look at the article.

Here is what he claims:
"Effectiveness studies of modern methods of NFP have confirmed that when used correctly they are effective in helping motivated couples to space pregnancy (correct use effectiveness rates vary from 97% to 99%, Trussell, 1998);"

So I trace the reference:
Trussell, J. (1998). Contraceptive efficacy. In R. Hatcher, J. Trussell, F. Stewart, W. Cates, G. Stewart, F. Guest, et al. (1998). Contraceptive technology. New York: Ardent Media.

Now, Trussell has written a bunch of stuff. 133 scientific medical journal articles to be specific (Per a search on "Medline.") The latest article by Trussell is this:

Authors Trussell J. Grummer-Strawn L.

Institution Office of Population Research, Princeton University.

Title Contraceptive failure of the ovulation method of periodic abstinence.[see comment].

Comments Comment in: Fam Plann Perspect. 1990 Sep-Oct;22(5):232; PMID: 2272383, Comment in: Fam Plann Perspect. 1990 Sep-Oct;22(5):232-3; PMID: 2272384

Source Family Planning Perspectives. 22(2):65-75, 1990 Mar-Apr.


Now, tracking down the comments online is tedious, but the trussell reference itself writes this in the abstract:
"Probabilities of pregnancy during the first year are 3.1 percent during perfect use (method failure) and 86.4 percent during imperfect use (user failure). Thus, if used perfectly, the ovulation method is very effective. However, it is extremely unforgiving of imperfect use. Because perfect compliance is difficult for many couples who desire intercourse when it is forbidden by ovulation method rules, and because the risk of pregnancy during imperfect use is so great, the ovulation method cannot be considered an ideal contraceptive method for the typical couple, who are likely to be less compliant than couples who volunteer for a clinical trial. "

Now, 86.4 percent failure rate is one whopping number. 100 couple have sex using this method, 86 of them end up pregnant. Hmm, what was that you said about effective birth control?

Huh? What? You are saying that the author was not trustworthy? But this is the author that your linked study used as evidence for the method's effectiveness. So it MUST be right!
 
You are aware that NFP can be used to GET pregnant too...it's fertility AWARENESS....

If you are aware and don't want to get pregnant...you don't have sex when pregnancy could happen. If you're aware and you have sex during a fertile period...ummmm...you get pregnant. User failure is human decision. Talk about CHOICE!!!!!
 
Felicity said:
You are aware that NFP can be used to GET pregnant too...it's fertility AWARENESS....
Yes, it is good for getting pregnant.
If you are aware and don't want to get pregnant...you don't have sex when pregnancy could happen.
Uhum, and THAT'S the advice you give to the teens that are to "hot and sweaty" to use contraception correctly?:rofl :screwy :2funny:
If you're aware and you have sex during a fertile period...ummmm...you get pregnant. User failure is human decision. Talk about CHOICE!!!!!
Yes, an ASTONISHING user failure of about 86% as my previous post showed.
 
steen said:
Yes, it is good for getting pregnant.
Uhum, and THAT'S the advice you give to the teens that are to "hot and sweaty" to use contraception correctly?:rofl :screwy :2funny:
Yes, an ASTONISHING user failure of about 86% as my previous post showed.

Been there steen...you need some new angles...
 
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