And public schools are USELESS?

[hipsterdufus]

I'm a public school teacher in the U.S., so let me weigh in here. I don't think the American system is as hopeless as it seems; we have taken an educational system that worked quite well for decades, and mangled it with our good intentions and our short-sighted attempts to influence future generations toward a specific bias (i.e, the attempt to put "Ebonics" into the classroom). If we can cut the ties that are strangling education, we may be able to resurrect it; the first thing to remove would be standardized tests. The next step would be to eliminate 90% of administration. Then we could use the money thus saved to: increase teacher salaries to attract the best and brightest; hire more teachers to reduce class sizes; and put measures in place to ensure that the teachers we have are the best we can get, thus satisfying politicians' pathological need for accountability.

Most teachers want to do the best job they can; most students want to learn. But teachers have to spend their time teaching what they are told they have to teach, rather than what they feel is important, because we trust politicians to decide what students should learn, instead of trusting teachers. Students are aware that most of what they are told they must learn is esoteric, mandated by the government instead of rationally chosen by a teacher, their parents, or themselves. The answer is to get rid of the teachers who do a poor job, not to mandate instruction for all teachers; unfortunately, the country has taken the second option.

Sorry if I have derailed this thread with too many opinions; obviously, I'm quite close to this issue. Personally, I teach philosophy in my classes (I'm an English teacher), because that, to me, is the point of literature once you get past Dick and Jane. I think most English teachers are the same. While I would definitely support the teaching of more philosophy and ethics, and especially critical thinking, I don't think the current lack of it is as dire as it seems on the surface. Just because students don't have a class labeled "Philosophy 101" doesn't mean they aren't asked to define truth and beauty.

Nice post Coffee. You're dead on here. I teach at an Independent School and I thank my lucky stars every day that I'm not handcuffed by NCLB. It's the worst policy I've ever heard of! The big winners are the test makers - McGraw Hill and co.

 

[steen]

Sorry if I have derailed this thread with too many opinions; obviously, I'm quite close to this issue.

I don't think you derailed anything. I agree with you. The problem with trying to micro-manage professionals who know what they are doing is such a waste and disservice to the kids.

 

[Engimo]

Sorry if I have derailed this thread with too many opinions; obviously, I'm quite close to this issue. Personally, I teach philosophy in my classes (I'm an English teacher), because that, to me, is the point of literature once you get past Dick and Jane. I think most English teachers are the same. While I would definitely support the teaching of more philosophy and ethics, and especially critical thinking, I don't think the current lack of it is as dire as it seems on the surface. Just because students don't have a class labeled "Philosophy 101" doesn't mean they aren't asked to define truth and beauty.

No, not at all. It's nice to have insight from someone on the "inside" of the educational system. It is simply unfortunate that we don't have more teachers like you, ones that understand the value of very important aspects of schooling.

Perhaps it isn't as bad as we're making it out to be, but there is a definite problem in this country of anti-intellectualism and, for lack of a better term, intellectual apathy. Even at the university level (where I am currently), there is very much a lack of interest in politics, debate, and other things along that line. I think it should be a stated, standardized aim of the school system to encourage individual thought and critical thinking - something that has not been done in any school that I've attended.

 

[alphieb]

My son goes to a private Catholic School, they are teaching him Spanish in kindergarten. He is learning to read quite well. They are way ahead of the public school. However, not all parents can afford to send their kids to a private school, actually I save every penny to send him (not wealthy), but the tuition is not as high as some private schools. Unfortunately, private do not get state funding and very little federal.

Public Schools however, get plenty of funding. Perhaps, they should implement a bilingual program. The problem is they are teaching kids of all walks of life, some with unmotivated parents, learning disabilities etc. The class rooms are large. On a different note, I think public high schools have better science and math programs, because the teachers are higher educated (more money). The private high school here contains teachers of math and science with a bachelors degree. The pay for teachers in private schools are substantially lower.

 

[Stace]

My son goes to a private Catholic School, they are teaching him Spanish in kindergarten. He is learning to read quite well. They are way ahead of the public school. However, not all parents can afford to send their kids to a private school, actually I save every penny to send him (not wealthy), but the tuition is not as high as some private schools. Unfortunately, private do not get state funding and very little federal.

Public Schools however, get plenty of funding. Perhaps, they should implement a bilingual program. The problem is they are teaching kids of all walks of life, some with unmotivated parents, learning disabilities etc. The class rooms are large. On a different note, I think public high schools have better science and math programs, because the teachers are higher educated (more money). The private high school here contains teachers of math and science with a bachelors degree. The pay for teachers in private schools are substantially lower.

Now, when you say bilingual program as in they should be doing more to teach the kids other languages, or that they should have an incentive for teachers who are bilingual? Bilingual teachers could be an asset, though that isn't really fair to the students who only speak English....and not all parents want their children learning other languages...

 

[CoffeeSaint]

No, not at all. It's nice to have insight from someone on the "inside" of the educational system. It is simply unfortunate that we don't have more teachers like you, ones that understand the value of very important aspects of schooling.

Perhaps it isn't as bad as we're making it out to be, but there is a definite problem in this country of anti-intellectualism and, for lack of a better term, intellectual apathy. Even at the university level (where I am currently), there is very much a lack of interest in politics, debate, and other things along that line. I think it should be a stated, standardized aim of the school system to encourage individual thought and critical thinking - something that has not been done in any school that I've attended.

It is equally unfortunate that we don't have more students like you (I assume you are a student; forgive me if mistaken) who are interested in individual thought and critical thinking, debate, etc. You are entirely right that we should do more to promote it, and it would be a simple thing: my school has a required Speech class; I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't include debate. Except it does not include debate: it includes a series of required speeches necessary to achieve a certain benchmark mandated by the state, and the class is simply not long enough to teach any more than the required minimum. It's exactly the same in other classes that should allow for individual thought; jumping through the hoops required by the school board takes all of the available time, and there's nothing left for creative, self-directed student learning. Every year, I hear more education professionals talking about how important it is to make learning individual for students: how we need to catch their attention, to ask them to create their own knowledge instead of regurgitating the knowledge teachers give. And then every year, I hear about how it's vital that we improve test scores, and teach more of the basics of reading and writing, and how we need to increase our control of the students. We had a 45 minute staff meeting this semester, during a time especially set aside for teachers to collaborate and improve our teaching, and what did we discuss for the entire meeting? Student tardiness.
And there, in a nutshell, is the public school system. Most of my students believe they should pass the class as long as they show up every day; even if they do no work and learn nothing. They believe this because that is what we tell them is important; they don't get in trouble for failing a class, they get in trouble for being late to class. The intellectual apathy you speak of is everywhere, including in the institutions that should be just the opposite. But what we have to remember is, those institutions are just people, and we are those people. We can change it, all by ourselves, if we just do what we think is right.

And there's my affirmation for the week. I'll be more cynical after Christmas. :mrgreen:

 

[alphieb]

Now, when you say bilingual program as in they should be doing more to teach the kids other languages, or that they should have an incentive for teachers who are bilingual? Bilingual teachers could be an asset, though that isn't really fair to the students who only speak English....and not all parents want their children learning other languages...

That may be true, but I cannot imagine any parent not wanting their child to learn another language. To enter a reputable four year college you must have taken a foreign language. The best time to learn is as a young child.

 

[hipsterdufus]

This is a great article on the topic:

Unschooling : Education that unleashes the creative spirit.

http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/2005/12/16/Unschooling/

 

[Stace]

That may be true, but I cannot imagine any parent not wanting their child to learn another language. To enter a reputable four year college you must have taken a foreign language. The best time to learn is as a young child.

I'm certainly not going to force my child to learn another language if they don't want to. Things like that, the child needs to actually be interested, not forced. It was a requirement for me to take a foreign language for a couple of quarters, but I certainly didn't retain very much of it, because it just wasn't very important to me.

Also, there are plenty of "reputable" four year universities that do NOT require previous foreign language courses. Most times, if you have not previously taken a foreign language course, they require you to take a semester or two of some language while at college.

 

[Engimo]

I'm certainly not going to force my child to learn another language if they don't want to. Things like that, the child needs to actually be interested, not forced. It was a requirement for me to take a foreign language for a couple of quarters, but I certainly didn't retain very much of it, because it just wasn't very important to me.

Also, there are plenty of "reputable" four year universities that do NOT require previous foreign language courses. Most times, if you have not previously taken a foreign language course, they require you to take a semester or two of some language while at college.

Yes, but from a biological standpoint college is a poor time to begin learning a language. Language comes much easier to young children than it does to older people, simply because of the way that our neurological development goes.

 

[Stace]

Yes, but from a biological standpoint college is a poor time to begin learning a language. Language comes much easier to young children than it does to older people, simply because of the way that our neurological development goes.

I understand that point, notice I didn't say anything to try and disprove that...

I'm simply pointing out that there are millions of Americans that didn't learn a language when they were young, and many that never learned one at all....and they seem to get along just fine....

 

[alphieb]

I understand that point, notice I didn't say anything to try and disprove that...

I'm simply pointing out that there are millions of Americans that didn't learn a language when they were young, and many that never learned one at all....and they seem to get along just fine....

I don't know a second language and I have made it fine. I took German for three years in high school and two in college. I remember very little now.
If I had started it in kindergarten I would be fluent now. I don't think there is a major impact in knowing another language or not, but it certainly cannot hurt. Afterall, knowledge is power.

In kindergarten, I don't think the kids feel as if they are being forced to learn it as it is just another subject like math and grammar that is the beauty of it. This is why it is a good time to learn it. My son thinks it is cool that he can say things in another language. They make it fun to learn and interesting by playing games and other things to get the child's attention.

Different languages can also help with vocabulary, because English was derived from other languages. Especially Latin, YUCK....I took one year of that in high school, it is the most difficult language to learn. That was the last year they offered it. I took it because I knew I was going into the medical field and I thought it would help with the terminology. It did.

 

[hipsterdufus]

I understand that point, notice I didn't say anything to try and disprove that...

I'm simply pointing out that there are millions of Americans that didn't learn a language when they were young, and many that never learned one at all....and they seem to get along just fine....

Including English right? :mrgreen:

Is that the "ignorance is bliss" argument?

 

[Stace]

Including English right? :mrgreen:

Is that the "ignorance is bliss" argument?

aiofaioperopwnakldsfpowep0wtnfknlgsa


Say what?

You're mean and you're supposed to be on MY side. Thanks a lot.









p.s.......:2razz:

 

[UtahBill]

as far as "other" languages is concerned, I believe that those are Humanities related requirements, and can be satisfied by non-language Humanities courses. That is the way it was when I attended college, but it was a state owned/run college and not exactly well known as a "higher" level educational institution.

 

[Caine]

I thought we were supposed to be talking about how Public Schools AREN'T useless?

 

[alphieb]

I thought we were supposed to be talking about how Public Schools AREN'T useless?

We have been comparing private schools and public schools and how private offer foreign languages to elementry schools and whether public schools should or not.

 

[Caine]

We have been comparing private schools and public schools and how private offer foreign languages to elementry schools and whether public schools should or not.

Some do, back when I was in elementary school we had spanish classes in 1st grade. Of course, they were very basic, elementary school children, especially in the lower grades, aren't going to understand much more than what word is what, etc. Its not like you can teach them sentence structure when they aren't even learning that for english yet.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Some do, back when I was in elementary school we had spanish classes in 1st grade. Of course, they were very basic, elementary school children, especially in the lower grades, aren't going to understand much more than what word is what, etc. Its not like you can teach them sentence structure when they aren't even learning that for english yet.

The lower grades is where the languages should be taught and learned. That's when the real opportunity exists for the experience to stick.

Teaching world languages in High School as a requirement to get into college is pointless! By then those synapses are fairly closed and retention is very short-term.

 

[Columbusite]

It is equally unfortunate that we don't have more students like you (I assume you are a student; forgive me if mistaken) who are interested in individual thought and critical thinking, debate, etc.

Individual thought and critical thinking? Not in this country. :lol: I think you'd have to call it something else otherwise you'll have lots of conservative Christians claiming that you're trying to get their kids to doubt their religion. Not to mention it is only for those liberal elitists in their lofty ivory towers. Large portions of our country are anti-intellectual and anti-education. Couple of examples; you have a large number of inner city black kids who don't value education because of their parents and think that getting educated is "acting white" and you have a good number white people in rural areas who think education is overrated and you're better off working in a factory than getting a good education. I do think that schools should be able to hold parents more responsible for their children even if they don't like it, but that's not going solve the problem like some conservatives think. Doing that alone is only scratching the surface and doesn't change attitudes towards education.

 

[Mr. D]

Stop blaming the damn school system for everything. The opportunities are there for any kid who is not too hooked on his PS2 to take it. Any kid who wants to work can make it with our public school system. And that's what it's there for. It can't create a drive to succeed in a kid. That's the parent's job.

You've got it exactly right! That's why anti public school parents can never explain why Asian immigrant children can go to our "failing public schools" and wind up going to UCLA, MIT and Stanford and becoming doctors and scientists! As long as American born kids value video games and the hip hop culture over an education beating up on public schools isn't going to correct poor values!

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

 

[CoffeeSaint]

You've got it exactly right! That's why anti public school parents can never explain why Asian immigrant children can go to our "failing public schools" and wind up going to UCLA, MIT and Stanford and becoming doctors and scientists! As long as American born kids value video games and the hip hop culture over an education beating up on public schools isn't going to correct poor values!

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

So that is to say that our public schools are perfect? That the responsibility for students' learning rests SOLELY on the parents? I can explain why Asian-American students, along with white students, black students, hispanic students, and anyone who believes that this kind of racial profiling is demeaning to everything you say, can get into college after going to ou failing public schools: most of the students who go to college come from public schools that are not failing. How many students go to MIT from the very worst schools, say, those in East St. Louis? I remember reading that the dropout rate there was somewhere around 80%; how many Asians do you think were acing their math SAT at that school?
Some success stories do not validate everything in public schools, just a some failures do not invalidate them. However, the fact that the majority of teenagers seem to be part of this anti-intellectual culture, which most people on this thread have mentioned, might indicate that the institutions that are supposed to intstill love of learning, that are supposed to create intellectuals, have a flaw in them somewhere.

I would suggest that the reason most students are so turned off by school is because school is seen as useless, and not just by the groups that Columbusite described, and that part of the reason that school is seen as useless, is because school is useless. I thought that when I was in high school, and I'm a WASP from suburbia, with two parents with advanced degrees, etc., etc. I should have been a top flight student; I was not. To this day, I blame my teachers for doing that to me -- and I also credit two or three of my teachers for inspiring me enough for me to eventually succeed, and become the intellectual I would probably be classified as today.

But the problem with my motivation to learn would not have begun if it hadn't been for my high school. Schools are not blameless here, though the same should be said of parents, and also of students themselves -- notice how my happy little story totally left out my own juvenile delinquency? Heh . . .

 

[UtahBill]

So that is to say that our public schools are perfect? That the responsibility for students' learning rests SOLELY on the parents?

However, the fact that the majority of teenagers seem to be part of this anti-intellectual culture, which most people on this thread have mentioned, might indicate that the institutions that are supposed to intstill love of learning, that are supposed to create intellectuals, have a flaw in them somewhere.

That was not said, no one has said the schools are perfect. And the parents ARE primarily responsible for their own children. They should bring to school children that know how to obey the teacher, do their homework, get along with the other children, etc. A lot of parents fail on those issues right from the start.

High expectations may not always give us high results across the board, but you can bet that low expectations will almost all the time yield low results.

Our public schools are not expected to create intellectuals as much as workers for the factories. If any intellectuals occur, it isn't the schools that deserve the credit but the child himself, the parents who motivate him, and the teachers who recognize the few who desire to learn more than the bare minimum.

I am no great intellectual compared to most, but I am certainly much smarter and wiser compared to my siblings, and who can say why that happened? We had the same parents, same schools, etc. And I don't think we all need to be mental giants, either, but we should all be at least educated enough to know when a politician is playing games with the truth.

 

[Mr. D]

most of the students who go to college come from public schools that are not failing. How many students go to MIT from the very worst schools, say, those in East St. Louis? I remember reading that the dropout rate there was somewhere around 80%; how many Asians do you think were acing their math SAT at that school?
. . .

I don't know the answer to this question and it's an interesting one, but another question is, Did the city decide to establish a "failing school" there in East St. Louis? Did the city advertise to hire the worst teachers? Unfortunately, public schools reflect the community they serve!! If they community demands good public schools they get them! The first way you demand good schools is to tell your kids you'll accept no excuses for their poor attitudes about education and their negative behavior. As a teacher, I had students that would have learned if I would have slept through class everyday, and I also had students that would have been bored if I would have reinacted WW II in my classroom with the original cast! Some students had such an interest in learning and some resisted learning as a religion! When I was a kid, having a poor teacher was never an excuse for my misbehavior in school, disrespect to teachers, or lack of effort! Today it is! Contrary to what anti public school people say, today it is! My little Johnny misbehaves because he's not being motivated and challenged! My parent's would have motivated and challenged me with a good @ss whipping, but that's child abuse today! No, allowing kids to misbehave and not get the training and education they need as adults is child abuse! Look how many kids behave in restaurants and stores accompanied by their parents today! The restaurants and stores must be failing our children too! What a load! The majority of the responsiblity for learning is placed on the teacher, not the student and parent! That's why fixing our failing school system is not working so well! Edutainment in schools won't replace student attitude!

Denial an't just a river in Egypt!

 

[Busta]

This question was asked to me in another thread. So I'd like to start a debate on the issue.

HAY!!!
You copped my handle !!!!!
Give it back!!!!


Nevermind.....I'll go get a new one.......