An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever [W:456]

[Smeagol]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Here's what I think would be up for grabs:

1. Ending the right to bear arms.
2. Putting the right to abortion in the constitution, which is currently legal under very questionable constitutional justifications.
3. Same sex marriage. 15 years ago, banned. Today, a constitutional right.
4. Ending the Electoral College. One man, one vote, any US citizen can vote for POTUS including those living in the US territories.
5. Ending income tax and replacing it with a national retail sales tax.
6. Possibly including the right to healthcare, food and housing in the constitution.
7. Banning military conscription.
8. A right to privacy from government as well as other people and businesses.
9. There's a possibility the First Amendment rights to freedom of religion would be altered to codify specific guidelines on public expressions of faith and when there is an indirect government funding component. Faith Based Initiative, military funerals, school prayer, the GI Bill and other funding used at faith based colleges, school choice, etc.
10. Less states rights.


I personally think the country is too divided, btw. We could never agree on anything right now.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Haha, such ridiculous revisionist balderdash. I bet you call it the "War of Northern Aggression," too. Suddenly everything you're saying make so much more sense. You're a Confederate apologist, and you want to go back to the days when "all men are created equal" only applied to white land-owning Protestant males.

Thank God the ascendence of people who hold your beliefs is long over. We are far better off now the meaning of the Constitution that you worshipped has changed through gradual evolution of it interpretation. We will be even better off as a society when we throw the whole thing in the garbage, but at least we are not long holding to its original intent. There would be few things worse than that, since the original intent of the Constitution established a government that was a profound criminal violation of fundamental human rights.

You have a perverse worldview. You need to recognize that there is a higher morality that trumps the Constitution.

No, I'm no Confederate apologist. I spent most of my life swallowing the glorification of Lincoln and the Union, that we've all been spoon-fed from very young. I was born in Boston and lived my life up north.

Only later, when I began to study the facts of the constitution, and this country, independent of preconceptions and not projecting our values on the past (something you're apparently unable to do) with an intention to understand history by its own fact and terms, outside of prejudice, did I realize what occurred, and how that history got us to the sorry status where we are now. In fact the how we got where we are right now, was precisely, in a nutshell, from those who falsely imagine a moral superiority and intellect to dictate the terms of society, and disregard the terms of government, precisely what you represent, and precisely what the Constitution was intended to preclude. It is no surprise you admit your enmity to the Constitution, but it is somewhat refreshing to see it openly stated.

The Constitution was not built for manifold interpretations, but rather built to preclude and exclude them, by various checks and counter-checks, using precise, deliberate terms to establish concrete boundaries. The Constitution was corrupted by gradual steps involving varying degrees of transgressions, and by precedent, in a long series of acts that were definitively unconstitutional and unsupportable.

There is indeed a higher morality that trumps the Constitution, and it is the individual freedom, but not unrestrained individual freedoms to whatever end, as is supported by today's self-indulgent libertine Libertarians, but responsible freedoms in regard to positive outcome.

But I do appreciate you exposing a brand of "Libertarian" that is entirely in conflict with the liberty of the Constitution, and not at all the concert with that Constitution, but hostile thereto, as shown by your statement I've bolded.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, the Constitution was not at all a violation of "fundamental human rights", but sought to create that government that elevated INDIVIDUAL Rights, while not creating the sort of government capable of dictating the terms of society, not to mention a government not in control of "rights" and their recognition, so that it might ultimately deny the most fundamental human rights, and freedoms in the name of faux rights and obligations, that we see today.

Had the founders created a form of government mandating the end of slavery, they would have created the very form of government able to dictate the terms of society that they fled to free themselves from, and fought to deny its hold upon them. In short, by such a mandate the founders would have, on their own, defeated their own long-held intent, and created nothing but a tyrannous government, the same sort of corrupt and tyrannous government achieved by your claimed "interpretations" to that Constitution.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

1828 tariff act?

The conflict between North and South was largely economic, over industry and the deliberate prejudicing of imports and exports, harming the south.

The federal government had longstanding disregard for the divergent interests of the agricultural south, and imposed legislation and tariffs in favor of the budding northern industry, and punitive to southern agriculture and foreign trade, which was very costly to the south.

It wasn't until 1850 the North's industrial output outdistanced the South's agricultural output but this fact was only the artificial result of long increasing tensions between the South and North involving tariffs and trade barriers and differences in economies and levels of industrialization:

1. Embargo Act of 1807, non-intercourse, was the first trade embargo favoring American industrialization and harming agriculture. This came right at the time that the Cotton Gin was vastly increasing cotton output.

2. War of 1812 with Britain further meant America had to produce their own goods.

3. In 1815 the Treaty of Ghent concluded the War of 1812 and America was once again flooded with European produced goods. U.S. mills were devastated by British goods at ruinously low prices.

4. This resulted in new industrial Tariffs of 1816, 1828, 1832 which provided relief to northern manufacturers but, once again, disregarded southern trade and were tremendously harmful to their economy.

​

There was a continual pattern of trade bias for the Industrial states over the agricultural south. The net effect of this was to decrease the profit for cotton, virtually demanding the 'cheapest' labor be used, in a cotton industry that was labor intensive, with cotton even ripening irregularly, necessitating a high amount of man-power in the fields on a daily basis.

Even the insistence on cheap cotton for northern textile mills was a major factor in pushing slavery into being an even greater necessity. And it's not as if the North was taking any sort of conspicuous stance against slavery either. The North's tariff bias and Federal tyranny over State's rights, are emblematic to the contributing factors for the Civil War itself.


All of these actions were in disregard of the federal government's constitutonal obligation to 'regularize" the interstate commerce, by front-loading a bias to that commerce in the form of specifically targeted prohibitive tariffs. The federal government put a double vice on the South, both prohibiting a fair market price for its product, particularly cotton, and prohibiting the import of lower cost production goods resulting in harsh decline of the Southern agricultural lifestyle.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Here's what I think would be up for grabs:

1. Ending the right to bear arms.
2. Putting the right to abortion in the constitution, which is currently legal under very questionable constitutional justifications.
3. Same sex marriage. 15 years ago, banned. Today, a constitutional right.
4. Ending the Electoral College. One man, one vote, any US citizen can vote for POTUS including those living in the US territories.
5. Ending income tax and replacing it with a national retail sales tax.
6. Possibly including the right to healthcare, food and housing in the constitution.
7. Banning military conscription.
8. A right to privacy from government as well as other people and businesses.
9. There's a possibility the First Amendment rights to freedom of religion would be altered to codify specific guidelines on public expressions of faith and when there is an indirect government funding component. Faith Based Initiative, military funerals, school prayer, the GI Bill and other funding used at faith based colleges, school choice, etc.
10. Less states rights.


I personally think the country is too divided, btw. We could never agree on anything right now.

Thank you for exhibiting precisely why a constitutional convention cannot be allowed to happen, perfectly detailing the Progressive fascistic dictatorial eganda, entirely in conflict with individual freedoms, and the Constitution itself.

Just how do you imagine you might accomplish things like the termination of rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms, or the right of freedom of religion, nowhere involving any sort of "freedom FROM religion"? These are NOT GRANTS by the Constitution and cannot be taken by any act of man or government, not even be subsequent amendments denying them, nor discarding the entirety of the Constitution itself!

These very intentions are recreating the very sort of government dictating the terms of society, that this nation was founded upon rejecting, and sought to deliberately preclude.

While I have some minor appreciation for your candor in admitting the intention to deny these rights, rather than pursue their denial by corruption of clearly stated intent of the Constitution, even corrupting the "wall of separation between church and state" which is nowhere in the Constitution itself, your intention to do these things by direct alteration of the Constitution, is nowhere capable of removing these rights.

Even only your point #1 is cause to raise those arms, while the entirety of your purpose that follows is undeniably the necessity to engage those arms in absolute defiance and denial of that intent.

 

[Smeagol]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Thank you for exhibiting precisely why a constitutional convention cannot be allowed to happen, perfectly detailing the Progressive fascistic dictatorial eganda, entirely in conflict with individual freedoms, and the Constitution itself.

Just how do you imagine you might accomplish things like the termination of rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms, or the right of freedom of religion, nowhere involving any sort of "freedom FROM religion"? These are NOT GRANTS by the Constitution and cannot be taken by any act of man or government, not even be subsequent amendments denying them, nor discarding the entirety of the Constitution itself!

These very intentions are recreating the very sort of government dictating the terms of society, that this nation was founded upon rejecting, and sought to deliberately preclude.

While I have some minor appreciation for your candor in admitting the intention to deny these rights, rather than pursue their denial by corruption of clearly stated intent of the Constitution, even corrupting the "wall of separation between church and state" which is nowhere in the Constitution itself, your intention to do these things by direct alteration of the Constitution, is nowhere capable of removing these rights.

Even only your point #1 is cause to raise those arms, while the entirety of your purpose that follows is undeniably the necessity to engage those arms in absolute defiance and denial of that intent.

I agree. A Constitutional Convention would be disastrous for this country and the only way I can ever see it happening to be honest, would be if it were forced upon us by an occupying power after losing a major war similar to Japan's constitution.

Please don't confuse what I think would likely occur if there were a constitutional convention with anything it is presumed I wish would occur.

 

[Gina]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Moderator's Warning:

Passions run high, but please refrain from using violent rhetoric.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Please don't confuse what I think would likely occur if there were a constitutional convention with anything it is presumed I wish would occur.

Okay, point taken. You indeed did not suggest that those were things you yourself wanted to see. Apologies.

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Okay, point taken. You indeed did not suggest that those were things you yourself wanted to see. Apologies.

And nor did I. Good day Trip. In line with the Moderator's warning, I would suggest the Thread: New York times: in congress gridlock and harsh consequences. People from most political persuasions are despondent over Congress, but just ready to give up. I am not ready to give up.

 

[Sherman123]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

No, I'm no Confederate apologist. I spent most of my life swallowing the glorification of Lincoln and the Union, that we've all been spoon-fed from very young. I was born in Boston and lived my life up north.

Only later, when I began to study the facts of the constitution, and this country, independent of preconceptions and not projecting our values on the past (something you're apparently unable to do) with an intention to understand history by its own fact and terms, outside of prejudice, did I realize what occurred, and how that history got us to the sorry status where we are now. In fact the how we got where we are right now, was precisely, in a nutshell, from those who falsely imagine a moral superiority and intellect to dictate the terms of society, and disregard the terms of government, precisely what you represent, and precisely what the Constitution was intended to preclude. It is no surprise you admit your enmity to the Constitution, but it is somewhat refreshing to see it openly stated.

The Constitution was not built for manifold interpretations, but rather built to preclude and exclude them, by various checks and counter-checks, using precise, deliberate terms to establish concrete boundaries. The Constitution was corrupted by gradual steps involving varying degrees of transgressions, and by precedent, in a long series of acts that were definitively unconstitutional and unsupportable.

There is indeed a higher morality that trumps the Constitution, and it is the individual freedom, but not unrestrained individual freedoms to whatever end, as is supported by today's self-indulgent libertine Libertarians, but responsible freedoms in regard to positive outcome.

But I do appreciate you exposing a brand of "Libertarian" that is entirely in conflict with the liberty of the Constitution, and not at all the concert with that Constitution, but hostile thereto, as shown by your statement I've bolded.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, the Constitution was not at all a violation of "fundamental human rights", but sought to create that government that elevated INDIVIDUAL Rights, while not creating the sort of government capable of dictating the terms of society, not to mention a government not in control of "rights" and their recognition, so that it might ultimately deny the most fundamental human rights, and freedoms in the name of faux rights and obligations, that we see today.

Had the founders created a form of government mandating the end of slavery, they would have created the very form of government able to dictate the terms of society that they fled to free themselves from, and fought to deny its hold upon them. In short, by such a mandate the founders would have, on their own, defeated their own long-held intent, and created nothing but a tyrannous government, the same sort of corrupt and tyrannous government achieved by your claimed "interpretations" to that Constitution.

The spirit of the Constitution and the survival of the nation and our ideas is more important than the letter of the document. One of Lincoln's great contribution was to allow the Constitution to be masterfully bent in order that the entire edifice be saved.

 

[Linc]

An "OPEN" Federal CC would never close. It may be the only leverage "we the people" in the several states have on DC to make it function again. I do not call DC dysfunctional, I call it nonfunctional. I thank DP for allowing me to discuss my only political dream. The rest is subject to it, IMHO.

 

[Linc]

Another Thread just popping up: The unprecedented Repub use of the filibuster. Where would the Founders come down on filibustering POTUSA nominees to his Cabinet? Is this connected to Repubs not wanting these Cabinets to open and function in the first place?

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Your Ten up for grabs at a CC are certainly a justified response. 1. Do you really think 38 states would end the right to bear arms? I would speak against that here in Illinois. I don't believe any Statevwould do this. I would like to see the 50 States agree to similar laws on such subissues as CC.

Here's what I think would be up for grabs:

1. Ending the right to bear arms.
2. Putting the right to abortion in the constitution, which is currently legal under very questionable constitutional justifications.
3. Same sex marriage. 15 years ago, banned. Today, a constitutional right.
4. Ending the Electoral College. One man, one vote, any US citizen can vote for POTUS including those living in the US territories.
5. Ending income tax and replacing it with a national retail sales tax.
6. Possibly including the right to healthcare, food and housing in the constitution.
7. Banning military conscription.
8. A right to privacy from government as well as other people and businesses.
9. There's a possibility the First Amendment rights to freedom of religion would be altered to codify specific guidelines on public expressions of faith and when there is an indirect government funding component. Faith Based Initiative, military funerals, school prayer, the GI Bill and other funding used at faith based colleges, school choice, etc.
10. Less states rights.


I personally think the country is too divided, btw. We could never agree on anything right now.

 

[Bill Walker]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

`Unless it bans abortion, I'm not interested in revising the Constitution.

I could spend all night correcting the misconceptions expressed on this forum about a convention. For your information, a pro life amendment is on the convention agenda and has been since about 1960 or so. Basically the convention can only propose amendments to the Constitution. Those who say Madison"warned" about a convention, the Article V Convention fail to mention two facts: (1) Madison wrote Article V; (2) Madison asserted in Congress a convention call shall be done by Congress without "debate, vote or committee." Doesn't sound like a person who opposed it.

Again I could write for hours. Instead I suggest all go to Friends Of the Article V Convention, read the 746 applications from 49 states for a convention call. Learn about the convention from official court rulings, laws and so forth. You may be quite surprised at what you learn.

 

[Fisher]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

I could spend all night correcting the misconceptions expressed on this forum about a convention. For your information, a pro life amendment is on the convention agenda and has been since about 1960 or so. Basically the convention can only propose amendments to the Constitution. Those who say Madison"warned" about a convention, the Article V Convention fail to mention two facts: (1) Madison wrote Article V; (2) Madison asserted in Congress a convention call shall be done by Congress without "debate, vote or committee." Doesn't sound like a person who opposed it.

Again I could write for hours. Instead I suggest all go to Friends Of the Article V Convention, read the 746 applications from 49 states for a convention call. Learn about the convention from official court rulings, laws and so forth. You may be quite surprised at what you learn.

Well I am of the opinion we can throw out the whole works and create a whole new constitution, so I have no interest in amendments. I want new Articles.

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

As for one State-side specific, I believe in a Peace Corps at home in which "ALL" able-bodied/minded Americans give service to their Country "every" year for, let's say 2-3 weeks. Would this be overwhelming? Not if you're of the spirit of our Founders and the 4 faces on MT. Rushmore, plus Madison.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

And nor did I. Good day Trip. In line with the Moderator's warning, I would suggest the Thread: New York times: in congress gridlock and harsh consequences. People from most political persuasions are despondent over Congress, but just ready to give up. I am not ready to give up.

The gridlock of the Congress is the best thing to happen for freedom in the last decade.

We lose freedom every day that Congress is successful in legislating every aspect of our lives, and even intending to overrun our populace and its manner, and the electoral process itself, with mass amnesty that will only draw in even more illegal aliens.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

The spirit of the Constitution and the survival of the nation and our ideas is more important than the letter of the document. One of Lincoln's great contribution was to allow the Constitution to be masterfully bent in order that the entire edifice be saved.

That's just it, the spirit of the Constitution is no longer being represented by the nation's government, but rather a bunch of very ignorant and corrupt "ideas" that entirely undermine the Constitution.

The letter of the document is entirely important, and the only importance otherwise the nation is in name only, and her ignorant inhabitants are condemned to be un-free, damned, and damnable.

Lincoln did not "masterfully bend' the Constitution. His actions broke the constitution, and allowed the institution of martial law, puppet governments, amendment's forcibly ratified by puppet governments, and kangaroo Supreme Court decisions, all of which we continue to suffer under today. Nothing Lincoln did was praiseworthy once he began fortifying the troops at Sumter, threatening the inhabitants of Charleston, and denying the sovereign authority of states to leave the union, and was entirely condemnable.

The irony is that the North is said to have won the Civil War, and blacks were freed, but the truth is that America lost the Civil War to the federal government, and all Americans were enslaved.

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

The gridlock of the Congress is the best thing to happen for freedom in the last decade.

We lose freedom every day that Congress is successful in legislating every aspect of our lives, and even intending to overrun our populace and its manner, and the electoral process itself, with mass amnesty that will only draw in even more illegal aliens.

Nice farm bill in the House. Taking away or separating food stamps from the farm bill is one thing. Adding back corporate welfare to their masters, including themselves, is entirely another misdeed of corrupt capitalism of which you speak.

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

That's just it, the spirit of the Constitution is no longer being represented by the nation's government, but rather a bunch of very ignorant and corrupt "ideas" that entirely undermine the Constitution.

The letter of the document is entirely important, and the only importance otherwise the nation is in name only, and her ignorant inhabitants are condemned to be un-free, damned, and damnable.

Lincoln did not "masterfully bend' the Constitution. His actions broke the constitution, and allowed the institution of martial law, puppet governments, amendment's forcibly ratified by puppet governments, and kangaroo Supreme Court decisions, all of which we continue to suffer under today. Nothing Lincoln did was praiseworthy once he began fortifying the troops at Sumter, threatening the inhabitants of Charleston, and denying the sovereign authority of states to leave the union, and was entirely condemnable.

The irony is that the North is said to have won the Civil War, and blacks were freed, but the truth is that America lost the Civil War to the federal government, and all Americans were enslaved.

I'm no fan of the "radical Repubs" who fought Lincoln and forced the war. Would Lincoln have allowed the genocide of the Native Americans? I think not

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Nice farm bill in the House. Taking away or separating food stamps from the farm bill is one thing. Adding back corporate welfare to their masters, including themselves, is entirely another misdeed of corrupt capitalism of which you speak.

Yeah let's blame the House for farming supplements when they originated from the federal government dealing with the unintended consequences of its own Progressive price control legislation - the ignorant dictate of the terms of society.

Curiously I wasn't speaking of capitalism at all, but I certainly feel inclined to do so now.

Claiming that government assistance for farming has anything at all to do with Capitalism, corrupt or otherwise, is just asinine and outright ignorance of history.

Capitalism, is only individuals using their dollars to vote for how they want to consume products. Capitalism by its nature and definition, is not corrupt at all, and the attempt to impugn Capitalism as such only reflects the ignorance and dishonesty of socialism.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

I'm no fan of the "radical Repubs" who fought Lincoln and forced the war. Would Lincoln have allowed the genocide of the Native Americans? I think not

Acting as if Lincoln had nothing to do with the war is just not true. Lincoln encouraged the contemporary "shock and awe" bombing of Baltimore when the war was days from being over, for no good reason.

What does genocide of Native Americans have to do with anything?

I do agree with your last sentence though...

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Lincoln did not "masterfully bend' the Constitution. His actions broke the constitution, and allowed the institution of martial law, puppet governments, amendment's forcibly ratified by puppet governments, and kangaroo Supreme Court decisions, all of which we continue to suffer under today. Nothing Lincoln did was praiseworthy once he began fortifying the troops at Sumter, threatening the inhabitants of Charleston, and denying the sovereign authority of states to leave the union, and was entirely condemnable.
.

Selective Martial Law is the only way left to clean up portions of our crime-riddled cities. It would be nice to get a little help from my "friends", especially those who can handle weapons under the supervision of our Police and Military. It is war in the inner cities.

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Capitalism, is only individuals using their dollars to vote for how they want to consume products. Capitalism by its nature and definition, is not corrupt at all, and the attempt to impugn Capitalism as such only reflects the ignorance and dishonesty of socialism.

Capitalism, as practiced for example by the rotten meat-packers after the civil war, has always been corrupt. Surprised you are defending the monopolies of the North, who so tragically made the Southern folks suffer after the war

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Acting as if Lincoln had nothing to do with the war is just not true. Lincoln encouraged the contemporary "shock and awe" bombing of Baltimore when the war was days from being over, for no good reason.
...

This example you gave of war being hell should be enough to dissuade secession talk ever again. Growing up on Air Force bases, I did not really "feel" the civil war until I was 13 and first went to a civilian school.

 

[Trip]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Capitalism, as practiced for example by the rotten meat-packers after the civil war, has always been corrupt. Surprised you are defending the monopolies of the North, who so tragically made the Southern folks suffer after the war

Capitalism still does not have anything to do with corruption, at all, nor monopolies.


And those meat packers were as much the byproduct of government contracts, acting as monopoly, as anything. If it were a actually free market capitalism they would have gone out of business because of the poor quality of their product.

Again Capitalism has nothing whatsoever to do with monopolies; someone brainwashed you but good somewhere along the way.