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An Essay About a Serious Subject

Who is Jesus plus?
 
Hamish Howl said:
If you can't be bothered to give us a synopsis, why should we bother reading it?
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While I wanted to heed your advice, I couldn't resist a quick peek. I only got as far as the first sentence:

If you’re a Catholic, do you know for sure if you are going to heaven when you die? As a Protestant, I can say that I know I am going to heaven.
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That's one hell of an arrogant & assumptive premise, alright!
 
Chomsky said:
While I wanted to heed your advice, I couldn't resist a quick peek. I only got as far as the first sentence:



That's one hell of an assumptive premise, alright!
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Everyone thinks they're the only ones going to heaven.

As the Holy Man™ of this here political board, I can tell you that there is a clan of indigenous people in New Guinea who are the ONLY ones that ACTUALLY got it right, and all 50 of THEM are going to heaven. Except that one guy that shat in the kaukau on New Year's Eve.

Everyone else is wrong, and are going to spend eternity in the Baltimore bus station.
 
Hamish Howl said:
Everyone thinks they're the only ones going to heaven.

As the Holy Man™ of this here political board, I can tell you that there is a clan of indigenous people in New Guinea who are the ONLY ones that ACTUALLY got it right, and all 50 of THEM are going to heaven. Except that one guy that shat in the kaukau on New Year's Eve.

Everyone else is wrong, and are going to spend eternity in the Baltimore bus station.
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Honestly, I can't imagine making any type of religious claim believing I know something someone else doesn't! I'm literally the worst proselytizer or evangelist there could be. I simply refuse to do it. It strikes me as the height of arrogance.

I've actually been recently toying around with the idea of looking into becoming part of a lay affiliation to a Catholic third order. I really like what these guys are doing, and the theology involved. It's pretty cool stuff that I wouldn't mind growing into. But . . . the . . . big . . . 'But' . . . is part of their thing, their Charism, is doing Apostolic works. And depending on how that can be defined and accommodated, it might be a deal-breaker for me.
 
Chomsky said:
Honestly, I can't imagine making any type of religious claim believing I know something someone else doesn't! I'm literally the worst proselytizer or evangelist there could be. I simply refuse to do it. It strikes me as the height of arrogance.

I've actually been recently toying around with the idea of looking into becoming part of a lay affiliation to a Catholic third order. I really like what these guys are doing, and the theology involved. It's pretty cool stuff that I wouldn't mind growing into. But . . . the . . . big . . . 'But' . . . is part of their thing, their Charism, is doing Apostolic works. And depending on how that can be defined and accommodated, it might be a deal-breaker for me.
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Well, off to the bus station, then?
 
Hamish Howl said:
Well, off to the bus station, then?
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Not sure of the reference.

Is that like "going to the train station", in "Yellowstone"? (the Peacock series?)
 
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Hm. What happened to the OP?
 
Should have saved this sermon for Sunday.
 
pinqy said:
Jesus alone? So throw out all of the Bible except the Gospels, and maybe Acts of the Apostles? Weird.
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Acts 4:12, speaking of Jesus, says Jesus only. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Also, Jesus is God in the Bible (numerous scriptures). As God, he is the one people like Abraham and Noah believed in. Genesis 15:6 - "Abraham believed the Lord, and it was credited to him as righteousness." So all those who believed in God elsewhere in the Bible were righteous by faith in God.
 
Northwestresident said:
Here is a link to an essay about the most important subject in the world.

carm.org

Dear Catholic, do you know for sure if you are going to heaven?

Want confidence that you are going to heaven? You must trust the complete and finished work of Jesus alone, not Jesus plus.
carm.org carm.org

Please read the essay carefully and give it your full consideration.
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Why do you care if you're going to heaven or not? If you live a good life, do right by your fellow man and add more to existence than you take from it, isn't that reward enough?
 
Cordelier said:
Why do you care if you're going to heaven or not? If you live a good life, do right by your fellow man and add more to existence than you take from it, isn't that reward enough?
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The reality is that one must repent (or perish - Luke 13:3) and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior for the remission of their sins. Because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
 
Logicman said:
The reality is that one must repent (or perish - Luke 13:3) and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior for the remission of their sins. Because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
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My thinking is more in line with James 2:14-26---

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

"But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
 
Cordelier said:
My thinking is more in line with James 2:14-26---

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
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That's only half the story.
Much has been said over the years about salvation, justification, and works, and their relationship to each other. I think it is best to look at this from a chronological perspective, starting with the words of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9:

James is clearly referring to Genesis chapter 22 (Paul referenced Genesis 15 – seven chapters earlier) as the point where Abraham was justified righteous.

Well, what then does Paul state about works as proof that a person’s life is changed? Perhaps not surprisingly, he agrees with James:

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove
their repentance by their deeds (works).” (Acts 26:20)
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So why did Paul state in Ephesians 2:8-9 that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? And why did he refer to Genesis 15:6 as the point of Abraham’s justification and not Genesis 22?

Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith (Genesis 15:6). Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification.

Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other. https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/
 
Chomsky said:
I've actually been recently toying around with the idea of looking into becoming part of a lay affiliation to a Catholic third order. I really like what these guys are doing, and the theology involved. It's pretty cool stuff that I wouldn't mind growing into. But . . . the . . . big . . . 'But' . . . is part of their thing, their Charism, is doing Apostolic works. And depending on how that can be defined and accommodated, it might be a deal-breaker for me.
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Chomsky said:
Honestly, I can't imagine making any type of religious claim believing I know something someone else doesn't! I'm literally the worst proselytizer or evangelist there could be. I simply refuse to do it. It strikes me as the height of arrogance.

I've actually been recently toying around with the idea of looking into becoming part of a lay affiliation to a Catholic third order. I really like what these guys are doing, and the theology involved. It's pretty cool stuff that I wouldn't mind growing into. But . . . the . . . big . . . 'But' . . . is part of their thing, their Charism, is doing Apostolic works. And depending on how that can be defined and accommodated, it might be a deal-breaker for me.
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Logically you are saying the OPPOSITE of what you think you are saying. " It strikes me as the height of arrogance" is .proseletizing , it is judging the intent of people you don't know, It tries to make your scepticism dictates to people who know. You are like the blind man who swears everyone who claims to see is lying. :)
 
BabyAugustine said:
Logically you are saying the OPPOSITE of what you think you are saying. " It strikes me as the height of arrogance" is .proseletizing , it is judging the intent of people you don't know, It tries to make your scepticism dictates to people who know.
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I actually like your point here. However, you seem to not realize my speaking in the first-person is truly in the first person.

I'm not making claims to others here, just for myself. In fact, I do enjoy hearing others' ideas & beliefs when laid-out sincerely & sensibly. But, you will not hear me make the claim.

BabyAugustine said:
You are like the blind man who swears everyone who claims to see is lying. :)
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I'd like to think I'm more like the guy that knows what works for him, but not for anyone else. I simply can't make the claim of what works for others; I really don't know.

(Thanks for adding the emoji)
 
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