An alternative to "The Deep State" - the "Permanent government.

[Bullseye]

I found this article interesting because it offers an alternate way of looking at the internal working of government Rather than having some deep and complex "conspiracy" comprising thousands of conspirators scheming furtively to control government maybe we just have a massive bureaucracy of individuals regarding their own personal well-being and success. For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.

Why a conspiracy is necessary is something of a mystery: the same people who believe that thousands or even millions of people can keep such a conspiracy secret over years, decades, or even millennia often have difficulty recognizing that a pair of people could conspire to pick their pocket while walking in the street. Resistance from within the government to policies advocated by Republicans doesn't require a conspiracy — only that the personnel of that government pursue their personal interests.



I call such people the "permanent government," people who have chosen to make their careers in and off government. The existence of these people is not open to any serious debate: residents of the Washington area see them morning and evening, commuting in and out of the city; they're why suburban Washington exists, why the Beltway has a near permanent traffic jam, and why it became necessary to build a modern subway system. Some of these people, mainly at lower levels, are largely unaffected by what policies are being pursued, while for others, those policies have direct consequences.

This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

 

[Visbek]

For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.

lol

Yeah, too bad that's not actually how it works out.

For example, Social Security's civil servants are not going to put themselves out of business. The same goes for military, education, national parks, environmental protection, highway management, diplomats, treasury, defense, justice/law enforcement, commerce, agriculture, health and medicine, veterans...

As to those civil servants working on poverty issues? Well, funny you mention that, because government efforts do reduce poverty without threatening jobs. Social Security, for example, has reduced poverty without any threat of putting people out of work.

Similarly, AFDC or TANF civil servants' jobs aren't threatened by doing a good job, because -- contrary to the dreck the floods most conservative assumptions -- most recipients of aid, other than the disabled or senior citizens, only need support for relatively brief periods.

By the way, since you missed it: We're looking at the worst economic downturn since the 1930s (if not before then). Up to 30 million people could get evicted this year alone. There is no question that the civil servants providing help, especially those handing unemployment insurance, do not expect (or want) to have that many people collecting unemployment for that long.

This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

Or....

Civil servants are human, like everyone else. Some enjoy their jobs, some don't, some work hard, some don't.

Most civil servants, though, are simply there to do their jobs, and those tasks are determined by legislatures and political appointees. They only chafe when the political appointees are completely incompetent -- or worse, deliberately incompetent and thwarting the will of the legislature, as we see with the Trump administration.

For example, if you're working at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, you're certainly going to hope that your efforts reduce fraud; and no, it's not likely that you will eliminate your job by busting those who violate consumer trust. However, I can't imagine they will be happy when Mick Mulvaney decided to basically stop the agency from doing anything to protect the public.

Thus, when the job of the "Permanent Government" is to do their job, that's... pretty much what they are supposed to do.

 

[RealityNow]

I found this article interesting because it offers an alternate way of looking at the internal working of government Rather than having some deep and complex "conspiracy" comprising thousands of conspirators scheming furtively to control government maybe we just have a massive bureaucracy of individuals regarding their own personal well-being and success. For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.



This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

DEEP STATE... IS... The Confederate Operatives who have infiltrated our United States Government, for more than 150 yrs.

Many Black people over centuries and decades have learned, "Don't Let White People Define Government To Us"... because history has shown they will lie and cover over Truth to make themselves appear to look good.

They play the game of calling something like "Deep State" out, and then blame it on Liberal Democracy Respecting People, HOPING they can deflect and take the focus from people knowing exactly what "Deep State is"..
It's CONFEDERACY IDEOLOGY AND CONFEDERATE AGENDA... that never gave up on pursuing Confederacy Objectives.

For 100's of Years... White People have tried to define American Government in ways that benefit them, and screw over everyone else, That was the model, the premise, the ideal and the agenda of Confederacy..

Only white people fall for the stuff Right Wing Confederates who call themselves Conservatives, (as in trying to conserve the past).. have NEVER been known for 'telling the truth", they have never been known for facing the truth, and they are to vain and haughty and filled with malicious pride to ever admit to the truth.

We saw the CONFEDERATE Deep State, block witnesses from coming to congress, we see them now playing games with the Postals Service, and We see them have no Respect for our Presidential Election Process... and we've watched them try to dismantle and damage every department, division and agency of American Government.

Nope, Black people for sure are smart to the point they know not to let white people, try to define what is government and how it works... When poor whites learn that... they will be better off in their lives, and when the white women, wake up and stop trying to cling to the options to have a wealthy white man take care of her, then she will stand up and speak up for her rights, and the civic and civil rights of All
American People. As long as they continue to allow themselves to be bought out by his paycheck and public pride labels... they will continue to do grave damages to the principles of Civil and Civic Rights of American People.

MANY HAVE BEEN GROOMED OVER DECADES
TO NOT BE OF THE MENTAL FORTITUDE AND WILLINGNESS TO FACE AND KNOW TRUTH...

The lies and malice of white people have always been detrimental to black people, so we as black people had to face and know the truth...
and
we still face and pursue the truth.​

All the Civil Rights Marcher's of the 1960... Faced the Lies and The Violent wratch produced by those Lies, and Kept Marching with Truth and Facing and Promoting Truth.

Young people today, who are protesting, see the truth, they are facing the lies and the malice those lies built, and they demand to see, know and promote The Truth.

 

[Bullseye]

lol

Yeah, too bad that's not actually how it works out.

For example, Social Security's civil servants are not going to put themselves out of business. The same goes for military, education, national parks, environmental protection, highway management, diplomats, treasury, defense, justice/law enforcement, commerce, agriculture, health and medicine, veterans...

LOL, most of those don't have an objective of solving a problem - they provide long-term services. Although I'd suggest if you dug into many of them you'd find parts that match the "permanent government" description.

As to those civil servants working on poverty issues? Well, funny you mention that, because government efforts do reduce poverty without threatening jobs. Social Security, for example, has reduced poverty without any threat of putting people out of work.

And yet, after spending tens of trillions of dollars on the "War on Poverty" the poverty rate is essentially the same as it was when LBJ introduced The Great Society.

Similarly, AFDC or TANF civil servants' jobs aren't threatened by doing a good job, because -- contrary to the dreck the floods most conservative assumptions -- most recipients of aid, other than the disabled or senior citizens, only need support for relatively brief periods.

Again those are long term service oriented programs.

By the way, since you missed it: We're looking at the worst economic downturn since the 1930s (if not before then). Up to 30 million people could get evicted this year alone. There is no question that the civil servants providing help, especially those handing unemployment insurance, do not expect (or want) to have that many people collecting unemployment for that long.

I missed nothing. You should check the hiring going on to meet current demands.

Or....

Civil servants are human, like everyone else. Some enjoy their jobs, some don't, some work hard, some don't.

Most civil servants, though, are simply there to do their jobs, and those tasks are determined by legislatures and political appointees. They only chafe when the political appointees are completely incompetent -- or worse, deliberately incompetent and thwarting the will of the legislature, as we see with the Trump administration.

Are you by any chance a civil servant?

For example, if you're working at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, you're certainly going to hope that your efforts reduce fraud; and no, it's not likely that you will eliminate your job by busting those who violate consumer trust. However, I can't imagine they will be happy when Mick Mulvaney decided to basically stop the agency from doing anything to protect the public.

Thus, when the job of the "Permanent Government" is to do their job, that's... pretty much what they are supposed to do.

The CFPB is a great example of a bureaucratic rice bowl. Their entire M.O. is ideologically driven and their methods questionable.

 

[Visbek]

LOL, most of those don't have an objective of solving a problem...

I listed almost every executive agency.

It looks like your ranks of the "permanent government" are a tiny piece of the whole.

And yet, after spending tens of trillions of dollars on the "War on Poverty" the poverty rate is essentially the same as it was when LBJ introduced The Great Society.

The "War on Poverty" was a Great Society initiative.

Big chunks of that spending -- notably Medicare, Medicaid and AFDC -- were part of that, and weren't designed to "end poverty," other than giving people a chance to deal with crises without getting completely decimated.

The spending on elementary and secondary schools was not that big, and local school districts still set their own standards.

So, that leaves the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, which very likely contributed to the reduction in poverty rates.

We should remember that the federal government hasn't been run by Democrats steadily since 1964. Programs designed to help reduce poverty often hit roadblocks, put up by conservatives who don't want to spend money on anti-poverty efforts.

I agree that many anti-poverty efforts did not work, and some simply cannot succeed. For example, I don't think there is much that can be done to help rural areas that are dealing with entrenched poverty, declining populations, aging populations. We can do some things, like prevent or deal with the opiate crisis in those regions. But as long as people want to live in areas with few opportunities, then there isn't much that can be done. But, others can work -- and the people working on them are not deliberately screwing up just to stay employed.

I missed nothing. You should check the hiring going on to meet current demands.

Oh, you mean the 5 million jobs available to the 16 million job seekers?

Do you believe that people who work at the unemployment agencies around the US don't want to help people, and just want to hold onto their jobs?

The CFPB is a great example of a bureaucratic rice bowl. Their entire M.O. is ideologically driven and their methods questionable.

Yes, because "protecting citizens from getting screwed by financial agencies" is so ideologically driven.

Does that mean that Republicans were just fine with Wells Fargo secretly opening accounts, transferring customer funds into those secret accounts, and charging those customers fees?

Are Republicans just fine with deceptive lending practices? Or credit card companies engaging in manipulative marking materials? Financial companies lying to customers about add-ons and fees?

The simple fact is that some financial companies misbehave, and if no one is enforcing the laws, then they get away with it. The CFPB's mission is not partisan, not ideological, it's not a "rice bowl" for its civil servants, and it isn't a job that puts its employees out of work. Its job is to protect citizens.

 

[Bullseye]

I listed almost every executive agency.

It looks like your ranks of the "permanent government" are a tiny piece of the whole.



The "War on Poverty" was a Great Society initiative.

Big chunks of that spending -- notably Medicare, Medicaid and AFDC -- were part of that, and weren't designed to "end poverty," other than giving people a chance to deal with crises without getting completely decimated.

The spending on elementary and secondary schools was not that big, and local school districts still set their own standards.

So, that leaves the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, which very likely contributed to the reduction in poverty rates.

We should remember that the federal government hasn't been run by Democrats steadily since 1964. Programs designed to help reduce poverty often hit roadblocks, put up by conservatives who don't want to spend money on anti-poverty efforts.

I agree that many anti-poverty efforts did not work, and some simply cannot succeed. For example, I don't think there is much that can be done to help rural areas that are dealing with entrenched poverty, declining populations, aging populations. We can do some things, like prevent or deal with the opiate crisis in those regions. But as long as people want to live in areas with few opportunities, then there isn't much that can be done. But, others can work -- and the people working on them are not deliberately screwing up just to stay employed.



Oh, you mean the 5 million jobs available to the 16 million job seekers?

Do you believe that people who work at the unemployment agencies around the US don't want to help people, and just want to hold onto their jobs?



Yes, because "protecting citizens from getting screwed by financial agencies" is so ideologically driven.

Does that mean that Republicans were just fine with Wells Fargo secretly opening accounts, transferring customer funds into those secret accounts, and charging those customers fees?

Are Republicans just fine with deceptive lending practices? Or credit card companies engaging in manipulative marking materials? Financial companies lying to customers about add-ons and fees?

The simple fact is that some financial companies misbehave, and if no one is enforcing the laws, then they get away with it. The CFPB's mission is not partisan, not ideological, it's not a "rice bowl" for its civil servants, and it isn't a job that puts its employees out of work. Its job is to protect citizens.

Your unquestioning fealty to the the federal bureaucracy is touching and disturbing at the same time. :roll:

 

[RealityNow]

I listed almost every executive agency.

It looks like your ranks of the "permanent government" are a tiny piece of the whole.



The "War on Poverty" was a Great Society initiative.

Big chunks of that spending -- notably Medicare, Medicaid and AFDC -- were part of that, and weren't designed to "end poverty," other than giving people a chance to deal with crises without getting completely decimated.

The spending on elementary and secondary schools was not that big, and local school districts still set their own standards.

So, that leaves the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, which very likely contributed to the reduction in poverty rates.

We should remember that the federal government hasn't been run by Democrats steadily since 1964. Programs designed to help reduce poverty often hit roadblocks, put up by conservatives who don't want to spend money on anti-poverty efforts.

I agree that many anti-poverty efforts did not work, and some simply cannot succeed. For example, I don't think there is much that can be done to help rural areas that are dealing with entrenched poverty, declining populations, aging populations. We can do some things, like prevent or deal with the opiate crisis in those regions. But as long as people want to live in areas with few opportunities, then there isn't much that can be done. But, others can work -- and the people working on them are not deliberately screwing up just to stay employed.



Oh, you mean the 5 million jobs available to the 16 million job seekers?

Do you believe that people who work at the unemployment agencies around the US don't want to help people, and just want to hold onto their jobs?



Yes, because "protecting citizens from getting screwed by financial agencies" is so ideologically driven.

Does that mean that Republicans were just fine with Wells Fargo secretly opening accounts, transferring customer funds into those secret accounts, and charging those customers fees?

Are Republicans just fine with deceptive lending practices? Or credit card companies engaging in manipulative marking materials? Financial companies lying to customers about add-ons and fees?

The simple fact is that some financial companies misbehave, and if no one is enforcing the laws, then they get away with it. The CFPB's mission is not partisan, not ideological, it's not a "rice bowl" for its civil servants, and it isn't a job that puts its employees out of work. Its job is to protect citizens.

Republican have been trained NOT TO FACE THE TRUTH... They have been trained for generations to follow like scripted Serf, anything wealthy white men with a title tells them.

These comments in these treads tell how deeply uneducated they are and how unaware they are of the Principles and Governance of American Democracy... Their lives are devoted to "Name Association White Men"... its how Old Confederates like McConnel, and People like Session and Other decrepit Republican stay in office. Most of these people who expose themselves in these forums, don't know anything about policy other than what an Attack Ad tells them and Right Wing Media Feeds Them.

Democracy was never of design for such Ignorance, and we see that by the Damage their Ignorance has done and is doing to American Democracy.

Most of these Old head in these form have been trained NOT TO LEARN... The Confederates crafted that plan 100's of years ago, and these Old Head White People have not figured it out yet. They are Generationally Poor... and make themselves elated over access to Credit Debt.... to pretend they are living some dream life... until their wealth master exports the job and then they try to blame everything and everyone else.

These Imbeciles are the ones who parrotted what the wealthy told, them.. When the Wealthy Told Them American's Can't Compete, so Rush Out To Wal Mart and rack up some more credit debt. All the while the Corporations were free to post Profits in the $100's of Millions and Double Digit Billions... and they still have not figured it out.

Trump goes to his licensed properties weekly, only to ensure they make money from secret service and they get free security.... These people can't think deep enough to even begin to understand it.

LBJ.. Great Society was a Tremendously Great Program... but RACIST are the root to the damages that some parts of the program suffered. They are so ignorant they still want to attack Medicare.

You can't fix this kind of Ignorance.

 

[bomberfox]

DEEP STATE... IS... The Confederate Operatives who have infiltrated our United States Government, for more than 150 yrs.

Many Black people over centuries and decades have learned, "Don't Let White People Define Government To Us"... because history has shown they will lie and cover over Truth to make themselves appear to look good.

They play the game of calling something like "Deep State" out, and then blame it on Liberal Democracy Respecting People, HOPING they can deflect and take the focus from people knowing exactly what "Deep State is"..
It's CONFEDERACY IDEOLOGY AND CONFEDERATE AGENDA... that never gave up on pursuing Confederacy Objectives.

For 100's of Years... White People have tried to define American Government in ways that benefit them, and screw over everyone else, That was the model, the premise, the ideal and the agenda of Confederacy..

Only white people fall for the stuff Right Wing Confederates who call themselves Conservatives, (as in trying to conserve the past).. have NEVER been known for 'telling the truth", they have never been known for facing the truth, and they are to vain and haughty and filled with malicious pride to ever admit to the truth.

We saw the CONFEDERATE Deep State, block witnesses from coming to congress, we see them now playing games with the Postals Service, and We see them have no Respect for our Presidential Election Process... and we've watched them try to dismantle and damage every department, division and agency of American Government.

Nope, Black people for sure are smart to the point they know not to let white people, try to define what is government and how it works... When poor whites learn that... they will be better off in their lives, and when the white women, wake up and stop trying to cling to the options to have a wealthy white man take care of her, then she will stand up and speak up for her rights, and the civic and civil rights of All
American People. As long as they continue to allow themselves to be bought out by his paycheck and public pride labels... they will continue to do grave damages to the principles of Civil and Civic Rights of American People.

MANY HAVE BEEN GROOMED OVER DECADES
TO NOT BE OF THE MENTAL FORTITUDE AND WILLINGNESS TO FACE AND KNOW TRUTH...

The lies and malice of white people have always been detrimental to black people, so we as black people had to face and know the truth...
and
we still face and pursue the truth.​

All the Civil Rights Marcher's of the 1960... Faced the Lies and The Violent wratch produced by those Lies, and Kept Marching with Truth and Facing and Promoting Truth.

Young people today, who are protesting, see the truth, they are facing the lies and the malice those lies built, and they demand to see, know and promote The Truth.

This is well said. The civil rights marchers were not able to stop the southern strategy from happening even though they achieved great things. This is just like how the reconstruction movement was not able to stop the terror campaigns of the very early 1900s

 

[lemmiwinx]

tl/dr Deep state is the existing government and its cadre of drone like employees.

 

[bomberfox]

tl/dr Deep state is the existing government and its cadre of drone like employees.

Yes the deep state is der trumpengroper’s lemmings.

 

[lemmiwinx]

Yes the deep state is der trumpengroper’s lemmings.

Exactly. You're getting it. We are the woke who elected Trump and if you don't like that wait and see who we elect next.

 

[bomberfox]

Exactly. You're getting it. We are the woke who elected Trump and if you don't like that wait and see who we elect next.

There wont be a next.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I found this article interesting because it offers an alternate way of looking at the internal working of government Rather than having some deep and complex "conspiracy" comprising thousands of conspirators scheming furtively to control government maybe we just have a massive bureaucracy of individuals regarding their own personal well-being and success. For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.



This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

Eisenhower's last speech was about the dangers of the military industrial complex, part of which quite naturally included any government agencies that aren't designed with enough flexibility to adjust their mandate with changing needs and changing times.
Along with this one notices the phenomenon of "career politicians" who suffer from an even larger burden of inflexibility because half their mandate is getting reelected, and anything that serves that purpose becomes part of their mandate even when the net result is bureaucratic bloat or obsolescence of the mandate itself.

The original Dept of HEW (Health, Education and Welfare, now HHS) was the scene of massive bureaucratic infighting during the Johnson Great Society years because a good many of the original old railbirds from its 1953 inception argued that welfare must be designed with a single overarching goal of putting recipients back to work as taxpayers. (which of course is the ideal)

Opposition came from several corners, one being that welfare must be permanent at the point of use by recipients with a proven permanent inability to work, another being that such a goal would be subject to continual abuse for political purposes, and still another being that such a goal would set up a conflict with the Department of Labor. And finally one postscript argument was that so much monitoring would wind up blowing HEW budgets anyway.

And, as with any massive bureaucracy, no one ended up getting what they wanted.
And for recipients, welfare meant losing one's benefits immediately the moment one was hired, which of course meant no money for up to a month, thus putting them back in the same position that they were in prior. No mechanism existed to smooth the transition back to work.

Funny thing though, the UK dole has always been tuned that way.
The moment you file a UB40 (British unemployment benefits form #40) you know that the moment you start a new job, your UB40 bennies will carry through the following month while you await "your first cheque" from the new job in much the same way a first/last month deposit carries a landlord through your exit month while they try to find new tenants.

Consider the fact that the typical food stamp recipient is spending the money at a store, where people work.
That food stamp money is going INTO the local economy...that's a good thing.
It better be because in the coming months, that's the only food money a lot of people are going to even HAVE.

We the voters need to get more involved if we want government to work better.
Simply sitting around and inveighing about the evils accomplishes nothing, or worse than nothing, because if it truly is evil then only evil people will want to run it and work in it.
Hobbling it to the point of ineffectiveness is a bad idea too because when stuff stops working, everyone feels the pain.
We are not anarchists any more than we are communists, most people just want "good government" that first does no harm and second, tries to help in ways that actually HELP the largest number of people.

There is no real "deep state", there are just mindless career flunkies and dedicated civil servants, and a bunch of people who fall somewhere in between.

The courts, White House and Congress set the tone, design the mandates and put the money in.
But if We the People are the end users, then We the People need to learn what's happening and lend a voice to what's wanted.
Otherwise we are hurtling down the road with our eyes in our laps and our hands off the wheel, so don't be surprised when we go flying off the cliff.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Your unquestioning fealty to the the federal bureaucracy is touching and disturbing at the same time. :roll:

I guess that's your way of admitting you cannot refute a single thing Mister Visbek said in that post.
Or you would have.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This is well said. The civil rights marchers were not able to stop the southern strategy from happening even though they achieved great things. This is just like how the reconstruction movement was not able to stop the terror campaigns of the very early 1900s

Oh, all this could have been and CAN BE stopped but it would scare the crap out of a lot of people.
And seeing as how we're a democracy, it wouldn't be "CRICKET" to do so.

But trust me, there are ways to finally shut these jerks up.
The other way it finally gets handled is when a common enemy threatens everyone on all sides.
No, I mean something much larger than a single attack on a single piece of real estate.
Thanks to Trump, our national security is the weakest it has ever been.

I am guessing more than a couple of adversaries are right now sizing up what it would cost to permanently cripple us for a generation.
The problem is, unlike a traditional war, there might not be a "flag" representing the attacker this time around, and we might be waiting a decade to figure out who it really was. But of course in true American tradition we will run out there and blindly attack whoever we are told it was, even if it's pure BS, like Saddam, for instance. He had nothing to do with 9/11 but we were told he did.

Six trillion later here we are.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

tl/dr Deep state is the existing government and its cadre of drone like employees.

The tl/dr is a tell.
It means the person who wrote it has the attention span of a housefly, the intellectual capacity of a small soap dish and the emotional maturity of....

 

[lemmiwinx]

The tl/dr is a tell.
It means the person who wrote it has the attention span of a housefly, the intellectual capacity of a small soap dish and the emotional maturity of....

i can assure you houseflies are no match for me until the bar opens at 5 pm.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

i can assure you houseflies are no match for me until the bar opens at 5 pm.

A few Shirley Temples and you throw caution to the wind, eh?

 

[iguanaman]

I found this article interesting because it offers an alternate way of looking at the internal working of government Rather than having some deep and complex "conspiracy" comprising thousands of conspirators scheming furtively to control government maybe we just have a massive bureaucracy of individuals regarding their own personal well-being and success. For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.



This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

There you go again. You are assuming all our public servants behave like Trump and his minions. The opposite is closer to the truth and yes when they see criminal behavior they will point it out because unlike Trump and his supporters they love America and hate those that would corrupt and stain it. America is never about one person or leader. Booting Trump out in 80 days is not at all unusual, it is the soul of America to move on with someone new. Meanwhile our public servants will keep doing their jobs to make America safe and secure. They follow a higher calling than any individual or President. It's called the Constitution.

 

[Bullseye]

There you go again. You are assuming all our public servants behave like Trump and his minions. The opposite is closer to the truth and yes when they see criminal behavior they will point it out because unlike Trump and his supporters they love America and hate those that would corrupt and stain it. America is never about one person or leader. Booting Trump out in 80 days is not at all unusual, it is the soul of America to move on with someone new. Meanwhile our public servants will keep doing their jobs to make America safe and secure. They follow a higher calling than any individual or President. It's called the Constitution.

nonsense.

 

[Bullseye]

I guess that's your way of admitting you cannot refute a single thing Mister Visbek said in that post.
Or you would have.

That would be a poor guess. Not your first. :lamo

 

[Bullseye]

Eisenhower's last speech was about the dangers of the military industrial complex, part of which quite naturally included any government agencies that aren't designed with enough flexibility to adjust their mandate with changing needs and changing times.
Along with this one notices the phenomenon of "career politicians" who suffer from an even larger burden of inflexibility because half their mandate is getting reelected, and anything that serves that purpose becomes part of their mandate even when the net result is bureaucratic bloat or obsolescence of the mandate itself.

The original Dept of HEW (Health, Education and Welfare, now HHS) was the scene of massive bureaucratic infighting during the Johnson Great Society years because a good many of the original old railbirds from its 1953 inception argued that welfare must be designed with a single overarching goal of putting recipients back to work as taxpayers. (which of course is the ideal)

Opposition came from several corners, one being that welfare must be permanent at the point of use by recipients with a proven permanent inability to work, another being that such a goal would be subject to continual abuse for political purposes, and still another being that such a goal would set up a conflict with the Department of Labor. And finally one postscript argument was that so much monitoring would wind up blowing HEW budgets anyway.

And, as with any massive bureaucracy, no one ended up getting what they wanted.
And for recipients, welfare meant losing one's benefits immediately the moment one was hired, which of course meant no money for up to a month, thus putting them back in the same position that they were in prior. No mechanism existed to smooth the transition back to work.

Funny thing though, the UK dole has always been tuned that way.
The moment you file a UB40 (British unemployment benefits form #40) you know that the moment you start a new job, your UB40 bennies will carry through the following month while you await "your first cheque" from the new job in much the same way a first/last month deposit carries a landlord through your exit month while they try to find new tenants.

Consider the fact that the typical food stamp recipient is spending the money at a store, where people work.
That food stamp money is going INTO the local economy...that's a good thing.
It better be because in the coming months, that's the only food money a lot of people are going to even HAVE.

We the voters need to get more involved if we want government to work better.
Simply sitting around and inveighing about the evils accomplishes nothing, or worse than nothing, because if it truly is evil then only evil people will want to run it and work in it.
Hobbling it to the point of ineffectiveness is a bad idea too because when stuff stops working, everyone feels the pain.
We are not anarchists any more than we are communists, most people just want "good government" that first does no harm and second, tries to help in ways that actually HELP the largest number of people.

There is no real "deep state", there are just mindless career flunkies and dedicated civil servants, and a bunch of people who fall somewhere in between.

The courts, White House and Congress set the tone, design the mandates and put the money in.
But if We the People are the end users, then We the People need to learn what's happening and lend a voice to what's wanted.
Otherwise we are hurtling down the road with our eyes in our laps and our hands off the wheel, so don't be surprised when we go flying off the cliff.

You serious expect me to wade into this verbal septic tank?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You serious expect me to wade into this verbal septic tank?

Not at all.

 

[AmNat]

I found this article interesting because it offers an alternate way of looking at the internal working of government Rather than having some deep and complex "conspiracy" comprising thousands of conspirators scheming furtively to control government maybe we just have a massive bureaucracy of individuals regarding their own personal well-being and success. For instance if they work for an agency whose purpose is to solve poverty - what happens if they actually succeed? Their jobs go away.



This makes a lot of sense to me. While those at the very top may conspire over specifics, e.g. getting Flynn, or spying on Trump's campaign, these "little people" spending a career working in the bowels of the government have a lot of power to boost or derail the goals and objectives of the administration and elected/appointed superiors.

This is one of the key insights of NRx. It's good to see these ideas slowly reaching the mainstream.

 

[RealityNow]

This is well said. The civil rights marchers were not able to stop the southern strategy from happening even though they achieved great things. This is just like how the reconstruction movement was not able to stop the terror campaigns of the very early 1900s

Wealthy white damaged that reconstruction. Martin Luther King Jr. described it perfectly: In his Speech at The March On Selma.

Toward the end of the Reconstruction era, something very significant happened. (Listen to him) That is what was known as the Populist Movement. (Speak, sir) The leaders of this movement began awakening the poor white masses (Yes, sir) and the former Negro slaves to the fact that they were being fleeced by the emerging Bourbon interests. Not only that, but they began uniting the Negro and white masses (Yeah) into a voting bloc that threatened to drive the Bourbon interests from the command posts of political power in the South.

To meet this threat, the southern aristocracy began immediately to engineer this development of a segregated society. (Right) I want you to follow me through here because this is very important to see the roots of racism and the denial of the right to vote. Through their control of mass media, they revised the doctrine of white supremacy. They saturated the thinking of the poor white masses with it, (Yes) thus clouding their minds to the real issue involved in the Populist Movement. They then directed the placement on the books of the South of laws that made it a crime for Negroes and whites to come together as equals at any level. (Yes, sir) And that did it. That crippled and eventually destroyed the Populist Movement of the nineteenth century.

If it may be said of the slavery era that the white man took the world and gave the Negro Jesus, then it may be said of the Reconstruction era that the southern aristocracy took the world and gave the poor white man Jim Crow. (Yes, sir) He gave him Jim Crow. (Uh huh) And when his wrinkled stomach cried out for the food that his empty pockets could not provide, (Yes, sir) he ate Jim Crow, a psychological bird that told him that no matter how bad off he was, at least he was a white man, better than the black man. (Right sir) And he ate Jim Crow. (Uh huh) And when his undernourished children cried out for the necessities that his low wages could not provide, he showed them the Jim Crow signs on the buses and in the stores, on the streets and in the public buildings. (Yes, sir) And his children, too, learned to feed upon Jim Crow, (Speak) their last outpost of psychological oblivion. (Yes, sir)

White people were groomed NOT TO LISTEN TO IT, AND NOT TO REGARD IT... because the system of white nationalism of wealthy white male dominance, DID NOT want the poor and working poor whites to learn the real truths. And white society in general went along with "ignoring the Truth MLK spoke".

That Truth he spoke then, is still Truth Today... and much of white society is still "Ignorant to those Truth" and ..as their cling to their racism was more important than learning the truth.

Their ignorance brings them to suffer the same disenfranchisement and economic devastations they supported to be imposed upon blacks. Only now, the young have come to realize, the damage their ancestry did, has boomeranged and engulfed them even deeper into economic despair, trapped them in deteriorating communities, and brought them the same industrial job losses, that exporting jobs was designed to take jobs away from accessibility by black people. The Ronald Reagan damages to Education, has resulted to bring the same damages to engulf poor and working poor whites into "out of reach educations" because of the cost rise that is a result of the policies of Ronald Reagan.

White people from the earliest days in America were uneducated, and they relied on wealthy white men to tell them what their politics were, and dictate to them what their values of politics are to be... and as long as they had access to "create credit debt"... they blinded themselves to EVERYTHING, and devoted themselves to Racism's Madness.

They don't want to accept or realize this, because they can't face the fact they have been deceived and hoodwinked by the same wealthy white men they worship.

LBJ tried desperately to awaken them, and they were so embedded in their racism, they ignored and fought against him.

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”

― Lyndon B. Johnson