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Ammon Bundy & Water Wars too

When wildfire start and people are sent in to put out these fires, that is called "Forest Management". In the long ago past, fires burned until they ran out of fuel to burn or rains put them out, that was natures way of doing forest management. Humans decided they could do a much better job at managing the forest so they started what is called fire suppression and therefore taking nature out of the equation. Due to fire suppression and the lack of thinning the forest (which nature did via wildfires) we have created a monster that most of us in the Western States experience every year. Over a 100 years of fire suppression it is to late to allow nature to take her course, so now it is left up to us to manage these forest.


Forests need herbivores to remain healthy.

Herbivores have effectively been eliminated.
Time to bring in managed goat herds to serve as herbivores today.
Goat meat is "yum" if you didn't know.
Much less distinctive than lamb.


Moi







Canada.jpg
 
Since you claim Yellowstone is critical, the relevancy has been how has Yellowstone National Park been relevant to your life? How is Yellowstone National Park relevant to your life now?
Henry David Thoreau answered your question about 200 years ago.
"In wildness is the preservation of the world"

We are only just starting to understand this. Some never will.
 
Henry David Thoreau answered your question about 200 years ago.
"In wildness is the preservation of the world"

We are only just starting to understand this. Some never will.

Do your part. Move and do your part to allow nature to reclaim itself. Then live naturally as a hunter gatherer using nothing other than you make yourself - with no alteration of nature doing so. Rather than talk the talk at others, do your talk yourself. Then get back me...
... no, rather you not being on the forum again would indicate you might now be living as a homo sapien naturally without disturbing the wilderness.
 
Do your part. Move and do your part to allow nature to reclaim itself. Then live naturally as a hunter gatherer using nothing other than you make yourself - with no alteration of nature doing so. Rather than talk the talk at others, do your talk yourself. Then get back me...
... no, rather you not being on the forum again would indicate you might now be living as a homo sapien naturally without disturbing the wilderness.

There is nothng wrong at all with trying to save wild areas from further human depredation. In the end, it benefits us all, including those other animals who inhabit those places.
 
There is nothng wrong at all with trying to save wild areas from further human depredation. In the end, it benefits us all, including those other animals who inhabit those places.

My job was protecting nature. The greatest problem was people who live in concrete cities deciding they are environmentalists used by government for money and power harming nature in the name of the environment. Of course, since you see other people - but not yourself of course - as causing "human depredation" it will always be about other people.

From what I know of it, the "natural land" of the Bundy issue is land that the government took for that area in the name of the environment - but really it just a business money and job making thing for the government since the government rents out the land for grazing. But, in knee jerk whatever government says is "environmental" then is true.

So, explain how herds of cattle grazing on land is "the natural wilderness" and it is environmentally destructive or is saving wild nature - depending on whether or not the government is getting paid? Then again, I don't know all that much about the specifics and could get it all wrong. What I know is the feds used East Coast urbanites to impose rules about manatees claiming it to protect them - when really it was to give reason to seize land, buy cool boats for themselves and get themselves supervisors jobs. Only a fashion of "insurrection" by local people and us local and state people finally brought a stop to the slaughter of manatees resulting due to practices idiot East Coast concrete urbanites demanded being told what to think - and protest over.

I don't mean you or this specific issue. Rather, urban environmentalists nearly always are exactly wrong, the reality is that all the fabulous manmade stuff you have, massive selection of food you have, transportation networks - all of it - came from nature. It is always someone else they want to control and someone else's land they don't want used - but give THEM concrete and Starbucks, order more on Amazon! Materialism! While pretending to be an environmentalist because they visited some park somewhere.
 
My job was protecting nature.
So, why are you here posting on electronic devices instead of protecting nature. BTW we are all Homo sapiens, whether we are living in a high rise in NYC, homesteading in AK or "naturally as a hunter-gatherer using nothing other than you make yourself(sic) "
 
My job was protecting nature. The greatest problem was people who live in concrete cities deciding they are environmentalists used by government for money and power harming nature in the name of the environment. Of course, since you see other people - but not yourself of course - as causing "human depredation" it will always be about other people.

From what I know of it, the "natural land" of the Bundy issue is land that the government took for that area in the name of the environment - but really it just a business money and job making thing for the government since the government rents out the land for grazing. But, in knee jerk whatever government says is "environmental" then is true.

So, explain how herds of cattle grazing on land is "the natural wilderness" and it is environmentally destructive or is saving wild nature - depending on whether or not the government is getting paid? Then again, I don't know all that much about the specifics and could get it all wrong. What I know is the feds used East Coast urbanites to impose rules about manatees claiming it to protect them - when really it was to give reason to seize land, buy cool boats for themselves and get themselves supervisors jobs. Only a fashion of "insurrection" by local people and us local and state people finally brought a stop to the slaughter of manatees resulting due to practices idiot East Coast concrete urbanites demanded being told what to think - and protest over.

I don't mean you or this specific issue. Rather, urban environmentalists nearly always are exactly wrong, the reality is that all the fabulous manmade stuff you have, massive selection of food you have, transportation networks - all of it - came from nature. It is always someone else they want to control and someone else's land they don't want used - but give THEM concrete and Starbucks, order more on Amazon! Materialism! While pretending to be an environmentalist because they visited some park somewhere.

Visiting parks is important for those who live in urban conditions. Why wouldn’t it be. And the funding of NGO conservation and environmental organizations is also important. Unfortunately, the natural tendency of humans is to destroy. See a tree, cut it down. See some animals, kill them. Who will give voice to the flora and fauna of nature since they can’t do so on their own? And not all government lands need to be open for hunting. It’s also important to have areas where people can just walk around, hike, and enjoy whatever nature is available at that point.
 
So, why are you here posting on electronic devices instead of protecting nature. BTW we are all Homo sapiens, whether we are living in a high rise in NYC, homesteading in AK or "naturally as a hunter-gatherer using nothing other than you make yourself(sic) "

I'm don't share such stupidity.

This is the federal government on "nature:'

The "3 Sisters Springs" here - where the largest congregation of manatees collect for winter breeding in the world. The picture of the manatee on National Geographic or any other publication taken there. The land around it was fully undeveloped and privately owned. A wonderful secluded setting to swim in pure clear water accessible only up a small inlet - surrounded by nature. When the owner died, the federal government took land for environmental claims.

So, what save-nature things did the federal government do? Announce they were going to turn it into a commercial park run by the state. So they bulldozed down 90% of the trees and everything else to prepare for a huge parking lot, roadways, restaurant, gift shop, and put in a concrete sidewalk around the property, while replacing the natural setting around the springs (big, deep glass clear spring water pond at a constant 72 degrees - instead surrounded by a high raised deck around it all.

But then ran out of money and abandoned the project - after destroying all of "nature" there, no more like abandoned cleared overgrown ranch or farm land.

That is "environmentalism" at the federal level. It was all about graft, bribery, making profit and creating federal jobs including more management positions. To the federal government, "nature" is an admission fee gate, gift shop and restaurant, and lots and lots of cleared land for parking - destroying nature for profit and jobs - replacing it with businesses and concrete marketing some nice snapshot background they haven't destroyed.
 
Forests need herbivores to remain healthy.

Herbivores have effectively been eliminated.
Time to bring in managed goat herds to serve as herbivores today.
Goat meat is "yum" if you didn't know.
Much less distinctive than lamb.


Moi








Goats/sheep eat plants including the roots. Poor choice. Use cattle, bison and/or buffalo.
 
I'm don't share such stupidity.

This is the federal government on "nature:'

The "3 Sisters Springs" here - where the largest congregation of manatees collect for winter breeding in the world. The picture of the manatee on National Geographic or any other publication taken there. The land around it was fully undeveloped and privately owned. A wonderful secluded setting to swim in pure clear water accessible only up a small inlet - surrounded by nature. When the owner died, the federal government took land for environmental claims.

So, what save-nature things did the federal government do? Announce they were going to turn it into a commercial park run by the state. So they bulldozed down 90% of the trees and everything else to prepare for a huge parking lot, roadways, restaurant, gift shop, and put in a concrete sidewalk around the property, while replacing the natural setting around the springs (big, deep glass clear spring water pond at a constant 72 degrees - instead surrounded by a high raised deck around it all.

But then ran out of money and abandoned the project - after destroying all of "nature" there, no more like abandoned cleared overgrown ranch or farm land.

That is "environmentalism" at the federal level. It was all about graft, bribery, making profit and creating federal jobs including more management positions. To the federal government, "nature" is an admission fee gate, gift shop and restaurant, and lots and lots of cleared land for parking - destroying nature for profit and jobs - replacing it with businesses and concrete marketing some nice snapshot background they haven't destroyed.

Ummm....it was Florida. Republicans run Florida. What did you expect? It’s a place that now leads the nation in new COVID cases.
 
Ummm....it was Florida. Republicans run Florida. What did you expect? It’s a place that now leads the nation in new COVID cases.

That message is of such blind partisan ignorance I'm done with you. It could not be more ignorant - or you refusing to listen to anyone but yourself - to claim that Florida is in control of the federal government - this going back to Obama - as you also go back to cheering the science of the Spanish flu pandemic. Our city, over 85% Republican, is suing the federal government over the 3 Sisters, and won in federal court over federal rules killing our manatees.

So just go outside and shout at the sky "DAMN YOU DONALD TRUMP!" and then kneel and promise your pure unquestioning loyalty and devotion to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates.
 
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That message is of such blind partisan ignorance I'm done with you. It could not be more ignorant - or you refusing to listen to anyone but yourself - too claim that Florida is in control of the federal government - as you also go back to cheering the science of the Spanish flu pandemic. Our city, over 85% Republican, is suing the federal government over the 3 Sisters, and won in federal court over federal rules killing our manatees.

So just go outside and shout at the sky "DAMN YOU DONALD TRUMP!" and then kneel and promise your pure unquestioning loyalty and devotion to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates.

What does the Spanish flu epidemic have to do with anything? Is or is not Florida at or very near the top on new COVID cases because you Republicans refuse to get vaccinated? And wasn’t it great how Dr Fauci put Rand Paul in his place yesterday??????
 
The "3 Sisters Springs" ...... The land around it was fully undeveloped and privately owned. A wonderful secluded setting to swim in pure clear water accessible only up a small inlet - surrounded by nature. When the owner died, the federal government took land for environmental claims.
So, what save-nature things did the federal government do? Announce they were going to turn it into a commercial park run by the state. So they bulldozed down 90% of the trees and everything else to prepare for a huge parking lot, roadways, restaurant, gift shop, and put in a concrete sidewalk around the property, while replacing the natural setting around the springs (big, deep glass clear spring water pond at a constant 72 degrees - instead surrounded by a high raised deck around it all.

But then ran out of money and abandoned the project - after destroying all of "nature" there, no more like abandoned cleared overgrown ranch or farm land.

That is "environmentalism" at the federal level. It was all about graft, bribery, making profit and creating federal jobs including more management positions. To the federal government, "nature" is an admission fee gate, gift shop and restaurant, and lots and lots of cleared land for parking - destroying nature for profit and jobs - replacing it with businesses and concrete marketing some nice snapshot background they haven't destroyed.
Why bother to make-up a version of the truth when one can google the information. The fact is the addition of 3 Sisters Springs to the Crystal River Wildlife Range was a joint effort of state, federal, private and environmental organizations and it was done because the area was being destroyed by excessive overuse by the public wanting to view manatees and swim in the waters. When the land was purchased, the water was no longer clear, the banks were eroded because of the wash from motorboats going into the spring, trees had fallen into the water preventing manatees from getting to the springs. The joint action of the partners banned motor boats , regenerated the banks with native species, removed invasive species, removed the trees from the water, built a reception center for the public, put in a raised walk-way around the springs so the land would not be eroded again, limited the number of kayaks and swimmers, prevented harassment of the manatees by the public and made the parking near the springs available only for the public.

In other words the state, federal and private organizations saved the springs from permanent destruction and from a private housing development.
 
Goats/sheep eat plants including the roots. Poor choice. Use cattle, bison and/or buffalo.


Requires some herd management.


When encouraging controlled grazing,
the urban book people conjure up "over grazing".


There is plenty of over grown/tinder box Federal acreage.
Try controlled grazing & compare. And fire occurrence too.
My bet is it will improve ecodiversity compared to land that

remains "protected" from grazing. Not just the spread of manure


BTW cattle, etc. are less helpful in steep canyon country. Si?
The City of Laguna Beach found goats cheaper to rent than illegals
to clear fire hazard brush along Laguna Canyon Rd.



Moi








Canada-3.png
 
Forests need herbivores to remain healthy.

Herbivores have effectively been eliminated.
Time to bring in managed goat herds to serve as herbivores today.
Goat meat is "yum" if you didn't know.
Much less distinctive than lamb.


Moi







Herbivores are not native to the coniferous forests of the west. There were no herds of grazing animals that kept underbrush down in the historic times. Western forests were protected from wildfires because they were mature. The older taller trees created dense, broad canopies that shaded out the undergrowth. The modern practice of clear cutting and subsequent thick growth of short new trees the let in sunlight the supported fuel for fires.
 
Oh come on, the population of the Greater Anchorage-Mat-Su area is 400,000. It's a major Fed-Ex hub and a refueling hub for world trade. Just because you have a garage full of 4 wheelers and snowmobiles and hunt on public land doesn't mean you are living a subsistence life dependent on game. Food comes from Freddy's even if you are living off the grid. And all those wildlife areas, monuments and parks you are complaining about.... those were set aside so you couldn't shoot the last moose in Alaska or pollute some pristine river with mine tailing. They were set aside so Alaska would still have some of the wilderness you brag about living in.

Alaskans are such hypocrites. They love to tell you they live in a beautiful wilderness, a whole acre distance from their neighbor. Yet every time a mine has to stop polluting the tundra and 3 rivers, or they can't sell off another thousand oil leases, or cut another island bare of trees they bitch and complain about government not letting them "develop their land"
It is in fact true the federal government is not allowing Alaskans to develop all of their land, and that should be reversed.
 
Herbivores are not native to the coniferous forests of the west. There were no herds of grazing animals that kept underbrush down in the historic times. Western forests were protected from wildfires because they were mature. The older taller trees created dense, broad canopies that shaded out the undergrowth. The modern practice of clear cutting and subsequent thick growth of short new trees the let in sunlight the supported fuel for fires.


Deer

Elk
 
Perhaps the way to break the 18th century water rights laws is to use the commerce clause and regulate all water everywhere as if it were the air we breathe. It is clear that our water laws are completely out of date and unmanaged at all except by the owners of the rights. As for the Klamath, these morons are clueless. The dams are all filled up with sediment and there is virtually no power being generated by them. The farmers water is not coming from the dams meant to be taken down, it comes from the river and the ground table. Just more bullshit from the Bundies, hell the locals don't even want them there and we are talking about a very red part of the nation.
 
Perhaps the way to break the 18th century water rights laws is to use the commerce clause and regulate all water everywhere as if it were the air we breathe. It is clear that our water laws are completely out of date and unmanaged at all except by the owners of the rights. As for the Klamath, these morons are clueless. The dams are all filled up with sediment and there is virtually no power being generated by them. The farmers water is not coming from the dams meant to be taken down, it comes from the river and the ground table. Just more bullshit from the Bundies, hell the locals don't even want them there and we are talking about a very red part of the nation.


As If YOU Know. :rolleyes:

How many acres of productive rural land do YOU own?


Moi



Don't 🇨🇦ize
🇺🇸
 
As If YOU Know. :rolleyes:

How many acres of productive rural land do YOU own?


Moi



Don't 🇨🇦ize
🇺🇸

I do know, I follow this issue closely and know the area well. It is something that all the various parties involved write about and report on regularly. The river is dying because of these dams, water temps are so high that fish kills are now out of control. Its time to take the dams down.
 

MULE DEER HABITAT
Springtime grasses and forbs
Grasses and forbs (leafy, flowering plants) make up the bulk of a deer's early spring diet. In early March, motorists often see herds of deer feeding on the succulent plants that grow alongside many highways.
Summer forbs and fall shrubs
In the summer, mule deer continue eating a combination of grasses and forbs. Examples of forbs include dandelion, mountain bluebell, sawtooth butterweed, kochia, tailcup lupine, clover, broadleaf filaree, globemallow and many other types of broad-leafed vegetation. In late summer, as the grasses and flowering plants dry out, mule deer shift their diet to shrubs.
The condition and availability of summer and fall forage is critical. Mule deer use it to build up their fat reserves for the winter months.
Winter browse
During the winter, when most of the other vegetation is covered by snow, deer survive by feeding on exposed browse. Browse is the leaf or twig growth of shrubs, woody vines or trees. Examples of commonly eaten shrubs and browse include sagebrush, bitterbrush, mountain mahogany, cliffrose, rabbitbrush, scrub oak, serviceberry and willow.

ELK HABITAT
Habitat consists of a mosaic of woodland cover and large open areas. Woodland habitat provides escape cover from human disturbance and predators, and wooded corridors provide travel lanes among seasonal habitats. Open areas provide necessary herbaceous forage. Tule elk find suitable foraging and protective cover in various isolated, open coastal regions of California.
Elk native diets consist of a wide seasonal variety of green and dried grasses, forbs, and woody plants.)
Summer range
Elk in the northwest and other regions of the country that experience high snowfall and severe winter conditions typically migrate to higher elevations in summer once adverse winter conditions subside. Protection from human disturbance is a major factor luring elk to summer ranges. A general lack of disturbance provided in the high country woodlands and pastures of national forests, wilderness areas, and national parks makes these lands common elk summer ranges. New grasses and forbs and woodland cover provide the necessary summer food and cover requirements for elk. In states where weather conditions do not prompt migration, elk summer and winter ranges may differ little from one another provided that necessary food and cover requirements are present.
Winter range
In regions in which cold weather and snow prompt migration, elk winter in lower-elevation wooded areas that provide hiding and security cover. Densely wooded lowlands and north/northeast-facing slopes provide valuable hiding cover, and drier, open south/southwest-facing slopes can provide available forage. Because of their large body size and thick coat insulating them from the cold, elk can be found bedding down on open slopes in winter as well. Located together with open woodlands that receive ample sunlight, these habitats create an ideal complex of cover and foraging opportunities that provide elk with suitable winter range.

None of this sounds anything like the dense coniferous forest that are burning in Oregon.
 
My job was protecting nature. The greatest problem was people who live in concrete cities deciding they are environmentalists used by government for money and power harming nature in the name of the environment. Of course, since you see other people - but not yourself of course - as causing "human depredation" it will always be about other people.

From what I know of it, the "natural land" of the Bundy issue is land that the government took for that area in the name of the environment - but really it just a business money and job making thing for the government since the government rents out the land for grazing. But, in knee jerk whatever government says is "environmental" then is true.
The issue with regard to navigable water ways was settled by the Supreme Court more than a century ago. In Winters v. United States, 207 U.S. 564 (1908) the Supreme Court held:
The government of the United States has the power to reserve waters of a river flowing through a territory and exempt them from appropriation under the laws of the state which that territory afterwards becomes.

Which very effectively puts all navigable water ways in the lower-48 under the control of the federal government. Not the State, and certainly not Bundy.

So, explain how herds of cattle grazing on land is "the natural wilderness" and it is environmentally destructive or is saving wild nature - depending on whether or not the government is getting paid? Then again, I don't know all that much about the specifics and could get it all wrong. What I know is the feds used East Coast urbanites to impose rules about manatees claiming it to protect them - when really it was to give reason to seize land, buy cool boats for themselves and get themselves supervisors jobs. Only a fashion of "insurrection" by local people and us local and state people finally brought a stop to the slaughter of manatees resulting due to practices idiot East Coast concrete urbanites demanded being told what to think - and protest over.

I don't mean you or this specific issue. Rather, urban environmentalists nearly always are exactly wrong, the reality is that all the fabulous manmade stuff you have, massive selection of food you have, transportation networks - all of it - came from nature. It is always someone else they want to control and someone else's land they don't want used - but give THEM concrete and Starbucks, order more on Amazon! Materialism! While pretending to be an environmentalist because they visited some park somewhere.
It is not about cattle grazing on federal lands, or what comes from nature, it is about Bundy claiming to have rights to water that he clearly does not have.

I completely agree with you that city critters have completely lost touch with reality. That is very evident by the number of tourist injuries and deaths every year in Alaska. When I see morons like Timothy Tredwell, the self-proclaimed bear expert from San Francisco get killed and partially consumed by one of his precious bears, it makes me a believer in Charles Darwin's theory of Natural Selection.
 
Requires some herd management.


When encouraging controlled grazing,
the urban book people conjure up "over grazing".
The Alaska Department of Fish & Game have controlled burns every few years in order to improve the grazing conditions for the forest bison and musk ox. Other herbivores benefit as well, but not so much the moose. The goal, naturally, is to strengthen the size of the herd so that more can be taken by hunters. There is such a large demand for bison and musk ox tags that they have to be issued by lottery because the demand is higher than what is allowed to be taken each year. Out of State hunters can expect to pay in excess of $10K, because they are required to hire a certified Alaskan guide.

They also put bounties on wolves in certain areas of Alaska, or will sterilize a pack in another area, in order to maximize the moose population. Not for the benefit of the moose, but rather to allow more humans to take more moose. Wolf populations need to be kept in check in order to have a sustainable moose population.

The ADF&G is all about maximizing the wildlife for the benefit of humans, not necessarily the wildlife.

There is plenty of over grown/tinder box Federal acreage.
Try controlled grazing & compare. And fire occurrence too.
My bet is it will improve ecodiversity compared to land that

remains "protected" from grazing. Not just the spread of manure
The State allows us to glean dead timber from State lands, however, that is prohibited on federal lands. As a result, more acreage of federal lands burn than State lands every year.
 
The Alaska Department of Fish & Game have controlled burns every few years in order to improve the grazing conditions for the forest bison and musk ox. Other herbivores benefit as well, but not so much the moose. The goal, naturally, is to strengthen the size of the herd so that more can be taken by hunters. There is such a large demand for bison and musk ox tags that they have to be issued by lottery because the demand is higher than what is allowed to be taken each year. Out of State hunters can expect to pay in excess of $10K, because they are required to hire a certified Alaskan guide.

They also put bounties on wolves in certain areas of Alaska, or will sterilize a pack in another area, in order to maximize the moose population. Not for the benefit of the moose, but rather to allow more humans to take more moose. Wolf populations need to be kept in check in order to have a sustainable moose population.

The ADF&G is all about maximizing the wildlife for the benefit of humans, not necessarily the wildlife.


The State allows us to glean dead timber from State lands, however, that is prohibited on federal lands. As a result, more acreage of federal lands burn than State lands every year.


Has The Chief Bureaucrat in charge
ever lived there?


Moi


STOP 🇨🇦ization
of 🇺🇸
 
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