America's Problem: Conservative Parents Raise Liberal Kids!

[DeeJayH]

I tried to instill in my son to think for himself and if he choses to become a liberal, so be it
I still love him
but since he enjoys my side of the family more than his maternal side so I am not to worried about him going down the wrong road

 

[Bodi]

Well some people may not have the resources to recover from it so well.

Like, most people.

What the heck is your point?
That communicating and seeking compromise is not a postivie solution?

 

[Bodi]

I don't think it's ridiculous at all.
There is no viable approach to conflict resolution, other than compromise or turning to the authorities for help.
Saying "it is unacceptable to say no" is not a viable solution.
Resorting to physical violence is not a viable solution.

There is no viable solution, other than to continue to work toward a mutually agreeable compromise, or- if one feels threatened- to turn to the authorities for assistance.

Every conflict you'll encounter in life ultimately boils down to the same old conflicts:
You want this, I want something different. Or, I want you to do this, you don't want to. Or, you want me to do this, i don't want to. Or, we both want the same thing, and there's only one of them.
We're working at cross-purposes.
That's what pretty much every conflict in the world boils down to: two or more individuals working at cross-purposes.

The only viable way to resolve this, whether you're three years old or fifty-three, is to compromise.
"Let's take turns." "Let's share it."
"How about if I do what you want me to do, and you do what I want you to do?"

Etc.

Going back to LaylaZ's, "it is unacceptable to say no" for a minute...

I am fairly confident that if we polled most parents of the world, we would find that at ages 2-5, or so... the most powerful word that their kid knew, and used was "No". That is the stage of development that kids are learning about individuality. To be fair, I don't think that Layla is a parent. How can she really recall what she was like at ages 2-5?

That being said, it is not like parents accept kids saying no, it is about how parents respond to the child saying no. My eldest is 5 now, and she rarely says no, I think that she is coming out of that phase. She is articulate, but she still said no a lot. It was not unnacceptable either... it was just her way, kids way, of expressing themselves about what they want and feel, and since they don't have a great ability to think logically or keep their emotions in check, they blurt out no as they think about what they really want to say. It is a process and to not accept this process is to deny them thinking skills, IMO.

 

[1069]

Going back to LaylaZ's, "it is unacceptable to say no" for a minute...

I am fairly confident that if we polled most parents of the world, we would find that at ages 2-5, or so... the most powerful word that their kid knew, and used was "No". That is the stage of development that kids are learning about individuality. To be fair, I don't think that Layla is a parent. How can she really recall what she was like at ages 2-5?

That being said, it is not like parents accept kids saying no, it is about how parents respond to the child saying no. My eldest is 5 now, and she rarely says no, I think that she is coming out of that phase. She is articulate, but she still said no a lot. It was not unnacceptable either... it was just her way, kids way, of expressing themselves about what they want and feel, and since they don't have a great ability to think logically or keep their emotions in check, they blurt out no as they think about what they really want to say. It is a process and to not accept this process is to deny them thinking skills, IMO.

IMO, it is their way of attempting to exert power and influence over their environment, and of trying to assert themselves, as individuals with preferences and opinions.
Toddlers and preschoolers are very powerless. They know they are.
They are completely helpless and vulnerable.
At some point, they begin to experiment with exercising a little bit of power.
Sometimes this manifests as oppositional behavior.
Who cares?
Any adult can pick them up any time they want and force them to comply with the adult's demands. We know that, and they know that too.

They're merely experimenting with making choices, with having the power to make choices, including having the power to decline things.

Why tell them it's unacceptable?
It's a normal developmental phase.
Preschoolers already know that they are small, weak, and helpless.
They already know that grownups are bigger and stronger and can physically force them to do whatever we want.
What point is one trying to prove by forbidding the word "no"?

 

[Bodi]

IMO, it is their way of attempting to exert power and influence over their environment, and of trying to assert themselves, as individuals with preferences and opinions.
Toddlers and preschoolers are very powerless. They know they are.
They are completely helpless and vulnerable.
At some point, they begin to experiment with exercising a little bit of power.
Sometimes this manifests as oppositional behavior.
Who cares?
Any adult can pick them up any time they want and force them to comply with the adult's demands. We know that, and they know that too.

They're merely experimenting with making choices, with having the power to make choices, including having the power to decline things.

Why tell them it's unacceptable?
It's a normal developmental phase.
Preschoolers already know that they are small, weak, and helpless.
They already know that grownups are bigger and stronger and can physically force them to do whatever we want.
What point is one trying to prove by forbidding the word "no"?

Forbidding "No" reinforces its value, from my experience.
It gives the kid some strange little power over the parent.
A trump, of sorts... it escalates the situation too.

Yep. My girls say no, even though they know that I will simply start calmly counting to three. They get up and get into their room right away, for they already know the consequence of not doing so, and that is that I will simply walk over, pick them up and put them in their room and calmly walk over, pick them up and take them back to their room any and every time they attempt to run out mad, or wahtever. We have always said that it is their choice as to when their time-out was over. They choose to come out and and move on. Used to be really really hard, they would test and push, but now, just a year or so later, they just scream for a minute, they are ignored and they calm down... choose to be happy and come out excited and miling (in general) to play. Sometimes they want a hug, or something like that, or to talk about a wrongdoing on my part, and that is fine too.

 

[Layla_Z]

I don't understand this.
What do you mean "saying no was not acceptable"?

All it took was a look from my dad and I backed down on the "no" very quickly. I'm not saying I was the perfect child, but I didn't tell my parents no when they told me to do something.

 

[Layla_Z]

I agree, but I think flexibility and compromise is the basis of any good relationship, including a parent/child relationship.
And I don't mean to be hyperpartisan, but I see that as more of a liberal trait, while conservatives tend to be more authoritarian in their dealings with others, possibly including their children.

Here's the thing.
Kids learn from the behavior you model, not just what you say.
If your rule is that "saying no is not acceptable", what does that teach your children, really?
Rigidity, inflexibility, inability to compromise.
You teach them that it's acceptable to tell others that saying no is unacceptable.
I guess the next time they want you to buy them beer and cigarettes, and you tell them no, they'll inform you that saying no is unacceptable.

I think it's much more beneficial to teach kids how to communicate effectively and work cooperatively with others to resolve conflicts which routinely arise when it comes to interpersonal relations. How to problem-solve. How to compromise.
I certainly don't think it's best that kids be taught that authoritarianism is viable.
It is not realistic nor desirable that they be taught that one can bully others into never saying no to any of one's demands, or, god forbid, that if someone does say no, the way to deal with that is to inflict physical or corporeal punishment upon them.
That just... doesn't have any practical application in the real world, so why even teach it to one's kids?
People say no all the time, and it has to be acceptable, because there's nothing you can do about it. You have to learn to work together with others toward mutually agreeable solutions.
And as far as physical punishment, again, it has no practical application.
There's no real-life situation one's child might encounter where it's okay for them to inflict physical punishment on those who don't comply with their demands.
They have to learn peaceful, nonviolent conflict resolution. One has to model the behavior one wants from one's children.
Respect cannot be compelled. Demanding respect doesn't work.
You have to give respect in order to get respect.
Otherwise, it's only fear, and who the hell wants to be feared?

These are my philosophies, at any rate.

I guess I was too general in my statement. If my dad told me to go clean up my room it was not OK to say no. It would be OK to ask if I could do it later but to just say "no" was rude and disrespectful and therefore not acceptable. If I wanted to go out with friends and they didn't want me to, they would say no, but explain why.

 

[1069]

Forbidding "No" reinforces its value, from my experience.
It gives the kid some strange little power over the parent.
A trump, of sorts... it escalates the situation too.

Yep. My girls say no, even though they know that I will simply start calmly counting to three. They get up and get into their room right away, for they already know the consequence of not doing so, and that is that I will simply walk over, pick them up and put them in their room and calmly walk over, pick them up and take them back to their room any and every time they attempt to run out mad, or wahtever. We have always said that it is their choice as to when their time-out was over. They choose to come out and and move on. Used to be really really hard, they would test and push, but now, just a year or so later, they just scream for a minute, they are ignored and they calm down... choose to be happy and come out excited and miling (in general) to play. Sometimes they want a hug, or something like that, or to talk about a wrongdoing on my part, and that is fine too.

I tried to give my kids choices, when they were little.
"Do you want to pick up your toys now, or after you finish drinking your juice?"
It's empowering, and if you notice, "no" is not one of the proffered options.
"Do you want to put on your coat by yourself, or do you want me to help you put it on?"

I read a lot of child pop-psych books when I was pregnant.

I'm sure it's all completely outdated and passe by now.
But in the late 80s/ early 90s, child empowerment was a big thing.

 

[Layla_Z]

Going back to LaylaZ's, "it is unacceptable to say no" for a minute...

I am fairly confident that if we polled most parents of the world, we would find that at ages 2-5, or so... the most powerful word that their kid knew, and used was "No". That is the stage of development that kids are learning about individuality. To be fair, I don't think that Layla is a parent. How can she really recall what she was like at ages 2-5?

That being said, it is not like parents accept kids saying no, it is about how parents respond to the child saying no. My eldest is 5 now, and she rarely says no, I think that she is coming out of that phase. She is articulate, but she still said no a lot. It was not unnacceptable either... it was just her way, kids way, of expressing themselves about what they want and feel, and since they don't have a great ability to think logically or keep their emotions in check, they blurt out no as they think about what they really want to say. It is a process and to not accept this process is to deny them thinking skills, IMO.

Boy, for knowing so little you sure like to sound like you know a great deal. I am a parent and I have been a teacher for over 15 years. I've taught ages 0-18 at some point in my career. I also do remember how I was at a young age.

What I meant when I said that telling my parents no was not acceptable was that directly defying by parents was not tolerated. If my parents told me to do something, I was expected to do it. We could discuss the issue but I was still expected to do as I was told. This is not a bad lesson for children to learn. This doesn't mean blindly following authority but children need limits. Children who never learn this grow into adults who break rules/laws and then are shocked when there are consequences.

 

[missypea]

America's Problem: Conservative Parents Raise Liberal Kids!

From my perspective, when children are little....parenting is pretty close to easy. Granted it's busy, lots of stuff to tote around but it was basically fun. Once the hormones hit our son, that's when our nice little world got rocked.

I can honestly say parenting a rebellious teenager was one of two hardest things I've ever done. The five years of 12-17 were extremely tough.

Now that's it's over (and we all survived it) I can reflect and say that those years offered a lot of growth for all of us. Ryan gave us the opportunity to grow in ways we might not have otherwise.

He's going to be 19 in February and is doing great now.

Thank God!!!

 

[new coup for you]

What the heck is your point?
That communicating and seeking compromise is not a postivie solution?

that you'll get your ass stomped if you let it

 

[1069]

that you'll get your ass stomped if you let it

In case you haven't noticed, there's a little thing called civilization that took effect about, oh, a couple of millenia ago.
Nobody is allowed to stomp your ass, unless you let them.
Nobody is allowed to so much as lay one finger on you without your permission.
Assault is against the law.
Our tax dollars fund state, county, and municipal law enforcement agencies to prevent such things from occurring, or to punish the perpetrators when they do occur.

 

[new coup for you]

are you ****ing kidding?

 

[BmanMcfly]

That's a pretty severe limitation on spanking, isn't it? Kids seldom say no in my experience.

I'm not sure about the exact intended context, but I would assume that he's talking within a certain age range, and only when indignantly defiant.
What I'm saying is that you should not use violence to discipline a reasonable child, but children between the ages of 2-5 are generally UNREASONABLE when they are defiant and thus require physical discipline in order to send the right message.

There is also a fine line in this between discipline and abuse... a distinction that's been lost.

But how does that teach them consequences of their decisions? Other than to expect authority to punish for expressing disagreement or dissent?

What you are teaching them is that there are boundaries and that crossing this boundaries carries consequences. As the child grows older and becomes more reasonable, then a more reasonable use of discipline is required.

I guess I was too general in my statement. If my dad told me to go clean up my room it was not OK to say no. It would be OK to ask if I could do it later but to just say "no" was rude and disrespectful and therefore not acceptable. If I wanted to go out with friends and they didn't want me to, they would say no, but explain why.

When you say no to a friend you should offer an explanaition... your parents job is to raise you and guide you into a productive life ... they are NOT supposed to be your 'friend' at least untill the child is older and matured, THEN the child can become friends with the parents.

One of the main problems is that while we might intend to teach our children to be good... there are many competing forces, and more and more often parents just let the television do the majority of the parenting.

 

[Bodi]

Boy, for knowing so little you sure like to sound like you know a great deal. I am a parent and I have been a teacher for over 15 years. I've taught ages 0-18 at some point in my career. I also do remember how I was at a young age.

What I meant when I said that telling my parents no was not acceptable was that directly defying by parents was not tolerated. If my parents told me to do something, I was expected to do it. We could discuss the issue but I was still expected to do as I was told. This is not a bad lesson for children to learn. This doesn't mean blindly following authority but children need limits. Children who never learn this grow into adults who break rules/laws and then are shocked when there are consequences.

I didn't mean to imply anything disrespectful. I apologize, and I remember now that we interacted a bunch in the Education section. But I have to say that when I hear somebody say that they didn't say "no" as a kid, or that most kids don't... I get skeptical. I am talking about little kids. 2-5 year olds. I have never met a parent, teacher, therapist, etc. that didn't agree that "no" is a powerful word for kids and that just about every kid uses it.

My daughter will look at me and not say no too, but she also says no. She says no less and less, the older she gets too, but I think that Ten and I have this one pretty nailed. All in all though, I think that the three of us are pretty much on the same page.

 

[Layla_Z]

I didn't mean to imply anything disrespectful. I apologize, and I remember now that we interacted a bunch in the Education section. But I have to say that when I hear somebody say that they didn't say "no" as a kid, or that most kids don't... I get skeptical. I am talking about little kids. 2-5 year olds. I have never met a parent, teacher, therapist, etc. that didn't agree that "no" is a powerful word for kids and that just about every kid uses it.

My daughter will look at me and not say no too, but she also says no. She says no less and less, the older she gets too, but I think that Ten and I have this one pretty nailed. All in all though, I think that the three of us are pretty much on the same page.

I think we are talking about two different age groups. I don't mean little kids, of course they say no, that was my daughter's first word. I mean as a pre-teen and teen. I also don't mean blind obedience. What I meant by saying that no was unacceptable was the being disrespectful was unacceptable. That is not as common anymore.

 

[1069]

I also don't mean blind obedience. What I meant by saying that no was unacceptable was the being disrespectful was unacceptable. That is not as common anymore.

When I was a child, "respect" was not discussed.
I was the only child of a single parent, and we treated one another with courtesy, of course, but there was never any of this "respect" talk.
I don't think I ever heard the word until my preteens, at which point I either read it or heard it discussed at school.
Now I hear it constantly, in regards to relationships between adults and children, adults and other adults.
But it certainly wasn't part of my lexicon, growing up.
Perhaps the idea just wasn't so popular, in the 70s.
Or perhaps we just used other vocabulary to talk about it.

 

[Bodi]

I think we are talking about two different age groups. I don't mean little kids, of course they say no, that was my daughter's first word. I mean as a pre-teen and teen. I also don't mean blind obedience. What I meant by saying that no was unacceptable was the being disrespectful was unacceptable. That is not as common anymore.

Yeah, it seemed like we were talking different age groups.

I agree, the older they get, the more communicative they whould hopefully become. When my kids are even 8 or 9, I will expect them to be courteous and to explain their reasons rather than to simply say no... in fact, my 4 year old rarely says no as it is. She says things almost always, in a positive way. If you ask her something, she will respond with "I will", or "OK Pappa"...