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America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamentalism

Are there any differences between the christian right and islamic radicals?


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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

galenrox said:
Alright, I haven't read the above yet, but I feel I probably don't need to.
Heh. Are you serious?

I'm going to let you in on a secret. You don't know why we starting killing Iraqis. Unless you can provide evidence that you do know the real reasons behind those in power's decision. You cannot.

Even if you've managed to prove that religion played a role in our decision making, which I doubt, you absolutely have not proven that that is the reason we went to war (namely due to the fact that that is impossible).
I don't need to, because that was not my claim. it was derived from Calm2Chaos's post about bush and his christian morals, it was a logical extension. No, I happen to not think religion was a "primary" motive for the war.


What? You mean like NOT reading a post, then responding to it? Come on, somone has sense here and I think, based on the evidence, it's me

-Mach
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Calm2Chaos said:
Incorrect - I don't recall the president ever saying that he is killing anyone in the name of christianity or god. I don't recall him ever saying anything concerning pushing his religion or religious beliefs on Iraq, as the reason for the attack.

So, you're writing to say you believe this:

A politician involved in something that would not be popular, or perhaps even ethical, or illegal, will describe their actions, and motives for doing so, voluntarily, to the public.

You have got to get a new hobby if you really think that's a healthy statement.



Yes, but that's just derived from your statements!

cam2chaos said:
He is a christian, so he says. He derives his morals from his religion which is what most people do it seems. These morals he supposedly uses to make decisions.
...Bush made the decision to go to war with Iraq for no apparent reason with the full knowledge that many Iraqi civilians would be killed by American forces.

That's your claim, not mine. In fact, I don't think there is much evidence (or any?) that religion was a primary motive for Bush's war with muslims...err...Iraq. Seriously.

The Americans are not the ones doing the killing, the vast majority of deaths in this country are from terrorist and Iraqi's.
Bush probably told you this one too, right?

Point in fact, no one has clear death numbers, or their cause, not our government, by admission, not Iraq's government, by admission.


Calm2Chaos said:
I don't remeber the last time any war was ever waged against the citizens of a country.
JUST ONCE!!!!! ONE TIME PLZZZZZZZZZZZZ


Now, I woudn't expect anyone to know most of these, but come on, unless you live under a rock you have heard about:

Darfur
Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia
WWII Nazis

-Mach
 
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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Mach said:
So, you're writing to say you believe this:

A politician involved in something that would not be popular, or perhaps even ethical, or illegal, will describe their actions, and motives for doing so, voluntarily, to the public.

I said no such thing. I am not actually sure where you go tthis or how you got off into this tangent. I said what I said, and you tried to infer that the President was killing in the name of his religion. You were wrong and you tried to twist things to be more favorable to you
Mach said:
You have got to get a new hobby if you really think that's a healthy statement.

You made the statement not me.. maybe you should not try to put words in peoples mouths. Your trying to twist meanings to give some small sense of credence to the dribble you posted earlier

Mach said:
Yes, but that's just derived from your statements!

First:
You posted I said this
Originally Posted by cam2chaos
He is a christian, so he says. He derives his morals from his religion which is what most people do it seems. These morals he supposedly uses to make decisions.


You edited my post then put it up as a quote. Please have enough integrity to not alter what I said to try and make it fit into your pathetic argument

And your full of ****. You stated were killing people because of there religion. Please don't try and lie or distort what you said.

Originally Posted by Mach
2. America chose to kill them based on their religion (from above)?


Your statement... Thank You.. You can move on

Mach said:
...Bush made the decision to go to war with Iraq for no apparent reason with the full knowledge that many Iraqi civilians would be killed by American forces.
Again thats your opinion on why he went to war. I think he thought he had a justifiable reason(s) to do so. Wether you or I agree with his reasons are another story, but anything else is assumption

As does happen in any war or conflict. He did not however go to war against the population of this country as was explained earlier. If you choose to ignore what I wrote thats fine.
Mach said:
That's your claim, not mine. In fact, I don't think there is much evidence (or any?) that religion was a primary motive for Bush's war with muslims...err...Iraq. Seriously.

Please show me exactly were I said this. I already showed you were you said it. Again it seems like your trying to twist meaning, words and sentences

Mach said:
2. America chose to kill them based on their religion (from above)?

I never said it had anything to do with religion whatsoever ... If I recall your the one that said that

Mach said:
Bush probably told you this one too, right?

Point in fact, no one has clear death numbers, or their cause, not our government, by admission, not Iraq's government, by admission.

Your so transparent it's almost funny. You have no proof whatsoever to anything you say. You outright made up lies and used assumptions. Then you try to cover it up by twisting the meaning of words, statements, and sentences. Your agenda is pretty clear to anyone with a few brain cells to rub together. Bush didn't tell me anything, we haven't spoken for some time.

Mach said:
Darfur
Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia
WWII Nazis

-Mach

Your now talking about ethnic cleansing which is:

the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration

This is not warring against an entire population. It is the genocide of a specific portion of a population.

WWII was not ethnic cleansing, it was partly the result of it but that was not what it was about.

You are trying to equate the expulsion of the jews (Ethnic cleansing) to a nation going to war aginst the entire population of another nation. I don't see the correlation

You stated
Originally Posted by Mach
Iraqis as a population were not terrorising anyone, but now american is clearly killing them.


What your trying to say is that the US is attempting to perform genocide. And you are comparing the US to Nazi's. Both statements are ludicrous
 
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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta


I would think a man sending 140,000 soldiers to war because of his religious beliefs would be the equivalent of one man strapping c4 to his chest because of his religious beliefs. Semantics if you will. Killing 5-6 kids with a bomb thrown from a plane because some guy's god told you it was the right thing to do is exactly the same as another guy strapping c4 to his chest and killing 5-6 other kids because his god told him to. If you dont understand the similiraties, I think it's you who has the intelligence defficit.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta


I twisted nothing, I'm showing you what you wrote:


I'm serious when I write, that if you don't understand that defense you're using (Bush didn't say it therefore [x]), I'm trying to help you understand it. And my opinion is that it's too insane for you to actually mean it.




And your full of ****. You stated were killing people because of there religion. Please don't try and lie or distort what you said.

Once again, read my quotes, they are logical extensions of what you wrote. If you don't agree, show why, or where. If you can't, then I cannot help you.


You don't seem to understand that using military force, a ground invasion with air support, to destroy a government and then fight a civil war, NECESSARILY MEANS YOU WILL KILL INNOCENTS. You can deny it all you like. Bush doesn't deny it, he has the sense not to, I cannot fathom why you are.


Please show me exactly were I said this. I already showed you were you said it. Again it seems like your trying to twist meaning, words and sentences

I'm glad you agree that you disagree with yourself, that's why I'm showing you:

#1
10-26-06 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by cam2chaos
He is a christian, so he says. He derives his morals from his religion which is what most people do it seems. These morals he supposedly uses to make decisions.

Fact:
Bush (and the Bush administration) made the decision to go to war with Iraq.

Fact:
Bush (and the Bush admin) were, and are, aware that this necessarily means civilians in Iraq will die as a direct result of their actions.

There is no need to introduce a strawman that I claim they are intentionally attacking civilians. While I am certain, elements in the U.S. military have intentionally killed Iraqi's (There are always ongoing trials for this), I also think that's fairly well controlled in the U.S. military, and as long as they were low ranking, I think they will be harshly punished (serious jail time).

I never said it had anything to do with religion whatsoever ... If I recall your the one that said that

No, you specifically claimed that bush uses his religion to based decisions on. Going to war was a decision. Please retract it if you don't agree (that's the only reason I brought it up, because I too don't agree).



Yes, and the moon is made of cheese.

WWII was not ethnic cleansing, it was partly the result of it but that was not what it was about.

The holocaust didn't happen? You're one of those are you?

You are trying to equate the expulsion of the jews (Ethnic cleansing) to a nation going to war aginst the entire population of another nation. I don't see the correlation

A government using it's military in an effort to kill an entire population is not a military trying to kill an entire population? What??
You stated
Originally Posted by Mach
Iraqis as a population were not terrorising anyone, but now american is clearly killing them.

What your trying to say is that the US is attempting to perform genocide. And you are comparing the US to Nazi's. Both statements are ludicrous

I'm most certainly not "trying" to say that. What I wrote is correct and states my position. I do NOT think the u.s. military is on a mission of genocide, ethnic cleansing, or anything else so obviously without benefit.

-Mach
 
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Without the exxagerated tree limb lunging of some of the prior posts in this thread:

Radical Islam (Fundamental) is a brutal movement that strives to re-capture the glory of centuries ago. It is a religious movement that assumes the superiority to prescribe how others may lead their lives. Sound familiar? Both fundamental cultures have chosen to live by a stern code (conservatism) in accordance to the wishes of "God" and believes that infidels or "unbelievers" are out of favor with God. In striving to maintain a "pure" following of God, both groups can travel into the realm of terror and justification (Christianity has had it's dark times.)


However, there are factors that make the differences between Radical Christianity and Radical Islamism that negate the unfair grouping of the two in today's time period. One of those being our robust civilization. Our civilizations in the west have grown tolerant and in America, especially, we have made it a role to humanize religion. It is because of our robust blending of religions and cultures, they we see so extremely few religious crimes. Another factor is the religious book of choice. The New Testament, with it's Gospels of love, forgiveness, and peace have trumped the brutalities of the Old Testament. Where is the trumping section in the Qu'ran? Another is the environment. In civilizations where the young have no future and have only "God" to turn to as defined by evil men in holy robes, any Radical religious serving can be seen as the "answer" to all failures and any attrocity can be exhonerated and justified.

All religions grow in societies that face forward with regards to social progress. It will probably be in America where we see the first real liberalization of Islam in the world. Men like Bin Ladden are the extreme definition of religious conservatism. Other men are: John Brown of America's Harper's Ferry (Christianity), Thomas Muntzer of Germany (Protistanism), and Phillip II of Spain (Roman Catholicism). These are all men that sought (seek) to use their religions to oppress and murder and stagnate their societies and civilizations in extreme conservatism.

Of course Radical Christianity can and has historically been in comparison to Radical Islamism. The same can be said for every single major religion on earth. This isn't what is important. What is important is where the religions are today - and where they aren't.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Both the White House and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who was also present at the meeting, deny that Bush ever made such a statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabil_Shaath

It is very interesting, my no-friend, you can trust one Palestinian, but you would not trust another Palestinian, and of course you would have no trust to US White House, and you would not even imagine to trust to an American President, and I am afraid even suggest what would you feel if the President is a christian.
You would rather trust Nabil_Shaath , but not to the ones below:

29 Warren G. Harding Baptist

30 Calvin Coolidge Congregationalist

31 Herbert Hoover Quaker

32 Franklin Delano Roosevelt Episcopalian

33 Harry S. Truman Southern Baptist

34 Dwight D. Eisenhower River Brethren; Jehovah's Witnesses; Presbyterian

35 John F. Kennedy Catholic

36 Lyndon B. Johnson Disciples of Christ

37 Richard M. Nixon Quaker

38 Gerald Ford Episcopalian

39 Jimmy Carter Baptist (former Southern Baptist)

40 Ronald Reagan Disciples of Christ; Presbyterian

41 George H. W. Bush Episcopalian

42 William Jefferson Clinton Baptist

43 George W. Bush Methodist (former Episcopalian)

You certainly find that an Islamist is more trustworthy ...

BTW George W. Bush is a Methodist (former Episcopalian), not a Christian Conservative. None of the American presidents was a Christian Conservative, not even William Jefferson Clinton.
 
more on america targeting civilians intentionally

Calm2Chaos.

Just reading about WWII today, wouldn't you know it:

WWII allied fire bombing directly targeting civilian population with incendiary and HE bombs. Some estimates show the firebombing of cities like Tokyo caused more deaths than the also intentional civilian targets of the atomic bombs. That's like half of LA or NY being obliterated.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0310-01.htm

To debate why, was it justified, or was it a crime, is one thing. To deny it happened or to argue it didn't, for shame.

-Mach
 
What a silly poll.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta



That would make you an idiot then. Please show me were he says that he is fighting this war for god, or in the name of christianity, or to further chritianity? I don't knowmaybe he did say this, and I missed it, If He did then I apologize. If he didn't then it isn't simantics, your just plain wrong. I'll wait for the inevitable quote
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

 
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Re: more on america targeting civilians intentionally


Carpet bombing was standard practice in the day to destroy infrastructure. Destruction of infrastructure reduces your enemies ability to resuply, rearm and continue to mobilize a warring state. People died in these attacks, thats obvious, this does not however point to the premise you set forth of warring against the population of a country. It is somethign that today is not really accepted. Target selection and destruction is more selective, designed to minimize civilian casualties. The shame os your attempt and manipulationg yet again something I said.

Lets just say that we are defining things differently. I am seperating civilian deaths in a war unless targeted specifically as collateral damage. You seem to be of the mind that if a civilian is killed in wartime we are targeting them and we are at war with the civilian population. War is going to have civilian deaths, there is just no way of getting around it. I just see the difference between minimizing destruction with tactical stikes using smart munitions, and screaming genocide when a civilian is killed.
 
Let me ask you Gunny, maybe I am completely off base on this:

DO we fight wars against the entire population of a country or against the government , ideas and ideals of our enemy.

Do we now or did we target civilians when we bombed cities in WWII, or were we looking to destroy infrastructure to reduce our enemies effectiveness. Or would it be acceptable IYO that by doing this we were trying to wpe out as mush of the civilian population as possible?
 
Re: more on america targeting civilians intentionally


Please read up on the subject. Yes, the fire storms were specifically deisgned to take out as many civilians in large cities as possible to break the morale of the population. Terrorism, just with a heck of a lot more deaths.

America, and other countries (Britain, for example), learned from the experience that not only is it unethical, but has the reverse effect in most cases, the opposition is even more determined because of the horror inflicted on their population. In that respect, they are even more justified to resist.

There is no confusion on definitions. America, Britain, Germany, Russia, have all particpated in targeting civilian populations specifically for the horror it inflicts. I'm not even debating if it was justified, it's simply a FACT.

-Mach
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

 
Calm2Chaos said:
Let me ask you Gunny, maybe I am completely off base on this:

DO we fight wars against the entire population of a country or against the government , ideas and ideals of our enemy.

We fight other governments and militaries. Today, we fight those in uniform and those out of uniform that fight for terror or ideal. Our enemies may be an entire civilization (Radical element who cater to martyrs and raise terrorists), but we fight only those that pick up the gun.

Our moral fiber is what gives our current enemies their certain advantage. Our enemies only need to drop their weapons to become that helpless, defensless civilian the media parades around.


We do not target civillians. We target infrastructure and structures that our enemies use (and may use) to cause harm to us and we allow him no safe harbor or ambush sites. Civilians caught in the fray are unfortunate and impossible to miss, but they are not the target.

There are many despicable things in war that are very much "acceptable." Our enemies in Germany and in Japan surrendered, because they were convinced of their defeat. We didn't drop a few precise bombs and tell them they lost. We reduced them to total destruction and broke their will to fight. Today, we are to busy looking for the morality in war where it doesn't belong. In the long run, we will have killed more and sufferred more than we will have to, because we have simply forgotten how to fight wars and prolonged the inevitable. The nature of war hasn't changed since the begining of time. It is always the goal to kill the enemy. Today, we look for ways to defeat a determined enemy by not shedding his blood for the media cameras.
 

Thats pretty much what I have been saying, just wanted to see if I was off base completely
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

 
Re: more on america targeting civilians intentionally


I'll leave that to you. The article you posted did not say anything of the sort. So until you have something official stating we were trying to wipe out as many civilians as possible I can't reconsider my position.
 
I suppose the answer really comes down to how broadly or narrowly you define each catagory. Yes, there are some nut job Christians that bomb abortion clinics and such. Yes there are some fundementalist Muslims that don't engage in or support terrorist tactics, but both are in the minority. Broadly speaking, both want to enforce certain values on their respective populations, but their methods and scope are vastly different.

Most Christian conservatives oppose abortion, gay marriage, and obscenity. They may favor censorship and breaking down some of the barriers between church and state. They do not attempt to impose a strict following of Judeao-Christian values on the general population. They do not wish to establis a national religion or create a theocracy. Fundementalist Muslim nations have based their entire legal code around the Koran. In Iran, the Muslim clerics rule the nation. They desire to make society completely obediant to the teachings of Muhammad - or at least their interpretation of his teachings.

Methods are different too. Most Christian conservatives use legal methods to bring about their desired changes. They moblize around candidates that support their views (and are often one of them). They utilize the court system to address or defend their views. They may not practice politics of inclusion or compromise, but they recognize they need to win a majority of the voting public to enact their desired changes. They do not resort to force or violence to further their cause. Many conservative Christians would say such actions violate their beliefs. Fundementalist Muslims on the other hand, often have no qualms about using violence and war to spread or enforce their beliefs and agenda.

Any reasonable person can see these critical differences and recognizes that any attempt to link the two as they exist today is a disengenious smear attack on conservative Christians. If you oppose some or all of the Religious Right's agenda, do so with logical argument. Don't engage is silly name calling.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

First, you screwed up the title of the thread by asking if a group of people were an ideology. If you want people to take what you say seriously you should probably take 5 seconds to word your title correctly.

Second:

fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-mĕn'tl-ĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.


Not all Christian conservatives are fundamentalists, just like not all Islamic conservatives are fundamentalists.

You tried to make a generalizing statement in the question posed by the topic. Luckily I am here, and such lies can be laid bare to the blinding holy light of truthyness. What the hell am I talking about. Help. I can't stop being a selfricheous prick. edit edit eidt eladsflaskj
 
The main difference between Chrisitians and Muslims is that the Bible does not command you to go conquer the world and kill the infidels.
Now, I do admit, most Muslims are peaceful, good citizens. Nearly 80 percent are nice people. But that means you have roughly 79 million Muslims who are mean and see you and me as infidels.
This is an interesting page on Islam.
www.masada2000.org/islam.html
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, Arab leaders say / Palestinian officials confirm comments from documentary

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

God told him to do it.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

As the Face of the United States, Bush has placed us into the realms of Fanaticism by pretty much proclaiming his own Jihad. We can use whatever words we want to explain what this "War on Terror" is, but pretending its not a War on Islamic Fundamentalism will not change the reality of it. Many here complain that Those Guys want us all dead, and hope to take over the world (yes this is an exageration to an extent), but if you are a muslim in say...Iran, what perception will you have of America in the light of President Bushs' statements, and actions.

To the average Muslim.....we are no better than what we fight.
 
Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

The WoT is without doubt a battle against radical Islam. I don't judge all Iranians on the statements and actions of Ahmadinejad. Are ordinary Iranians less sensible than I?
 
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