America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamentalism

[jfuh]

Fear of God
Gerhard Schroeder, the former German chancellor, has written in a new book that George W. Bush'sfrequent references to God in their meetings before the Iraq war had made him wary of Mr. Bush's political decisions. Mr. Schroeder also suggested that America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamists who impose their beliefs on entire nations.
<snip>
"Quite rightly, we criticize that in most Islamic states the role of religion in society and the secular character of the legal system are not clearly separated," he said. "But we haven't taken note as readily of the U.S. Christian fundamentalists and their interpretation of the Bible that show similar tendencies."

You're inputs?
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[FallingPianos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

the christian conservatives at least arent going around killing people.

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

the christian conservatives at least arent going around killing people.

No?
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/gods_name.htm
http://www.forceministries.com/
Same mentality, I can cite more if you want.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

No?
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/gods_name.htm
http://www.forceministries.com/
Same mentality, I can cite more if you want.

Alright, they aren't killing people in large numbers...yet.

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Alright, they aren't killing people in large numbers...yet.

Same mentality of a superiority complex thinking that they are God's favored ppl and that the rest of humanity are ungrateful sinners that will burn in hell. More importantly that it is thier job to send them there.

 

[FallingPianos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Same mentality of a superiority complex thinking that they are God's favored ppl and that the rest of humanity are ungrateful sinners that will burn in hell. More importantly that it is thier job to send them there.

I was with you until the bolded statement. while FCCs are a bitch to deal with when they involve themselves in politics, they aren't trying to send everyone else to hell. on the contrary, they are trying to spread their message so that the rest of us can go to heaven.

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

I was with you until the bolded statement. while FCCs are a bitch to deal with when they involve themselves in politics, they aren't trying to send everyone else to hell. on the contrary, they are trying to spread their message so that the rest of us can go to heaven.

They believe that everyone else is going to hell.
How many times do I see the group at the street corner preaching you're going to burn in hell?
Then we have the guys that take down buildings (Oklahoma) sending non-believers to hell. Or as that website I showed - taughting around guns and such waging thier bygone crusade.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Then we have the guys that take down buildings (Oklahoma) sending non-believers to hell.

McVeigh wasn't an evangelical or a member of the Christain right, he was a meth smoking paranoid conspiracy theorist.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

the christian conservatives at least arent going around killing people.

George Bush is a Christian Conservative......does this point to State Sponsored Killing? And, if so, Does it not denote Christians are indeed.....Killing People?

"In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.



Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml


That said....there is a profound difference between one man deciding to inflict death in Warfare.....and an entire sect of religion doing so as individuals.

 

[FallingPianos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

That said....there is a profound difference between one man deciding to inflict death in Warfare.....and an entire sect of religion doing so as individuals.

that was my point. you also have to consider who the targeted victems are.

 

[FallingPianos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamentalism

Same mentality of a superiority complex thinking that they are God's favored ppl and that the rest of humanity are ungrateful sinners that will burn in hell. More importantly that it is thier job to send them there.

They believe that everyone else is going to hell.
How many times do I see the group at the street corner preaching you're going to burn in hell?
Then we have the guys that take down buildings (Oklahoma) sending non-believers to hell. Or as that website I showed - taughting around guns and such waging thier bygone crusade.

you are comparing people who target and murder civilians to bible thumpers. they are not the same thing.

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

you are comparing people who target and murder civilians to bible thumpers. they are not the same thing.

Not the same thing? Turgoen targeting civilians? The morons that blow up abortion clinics? This moron in office having to make up a new terminology to classify "enemy combatants" so as to legally torture and trample all over the bill of rights. All this allowed because ppl see them as with the moral high ground.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Why:

I just don't see the christian right-

* declaring a holy war throught the world.
* Murdering innocent women in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent men in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent little boys in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent little girls in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent infants in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent elderly in the name of there religion and god
* Rioting over free speech
* Rioting over cartoons
* Demanding the conversion of everyone to islam or face death
* Strapping bombs to there chest
* Hijacking airliners
* Hijacking Busses
* Hijacking trains
* Hijacking Boats
* torturing people on film and then distributing that film to be played to the sheeple that adore them
* Being apathetic when something atrocious is done in the name of the christian religion
* Assiting terrorist with food, lodging, training, money, medical.
*etc etc etc etc

Anyone that thinks there is a true comparison of the two is a moron. And by attempting to defend such a assanine position only solidifies just how fu.cking stupid a person like that would have to be, not to mention clueless. But comparisons like this tend be made as some lame attempt at Bush bashing anyway

 

[FallingPianos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Not the same thing? Turgoen targeting civilians? The morons that blow up abortion clinics? This moron in office having to make up a new terminology to classify "enemy combatants" so as to legally torture and trample all over the bill of rights. All this allowed because ppl see them as with the moral high ground.

the problem then, is one of terminology. "christian conservatives" is way too vague.

 

[Mach]

Correct, not much difference.

There are differences, but they aren't important.

No one said terrorists, he wrote :Islamic fundementalists.
By Christian conservatives, I agree, too vauge, I read it as "Christian Fundamentalists" for this discussion.

Both are groups of people who share common beliefs with regards to a particular strain of religion.

Both are groups who, as fundamentalists, believe specific books and oral tradtion based on faith, without regards for the reasonable implications, the fact that they are not real, and believe the government should support their beliefs, based on these same reasons (being in a book or oral tradition).

Both believe if they don't behave a certain way, they will be punished in some ficticious after-life.

Both believe that if they do behave a certain way they will be rewarded in a ficticious "after-life".
==========================================

This is more of a "blind" faith, that is, the entire system of beliefs is based on a book, written by some humans. If organized, they are basically just cults.

This is in stark contrast to say, the average reasonable church going citizen who supports reality, but enjoys the social, and emotional benefits of participating in religion, without confusing religion for reality.
=============
Historically, yes, both of these religious cults have been harnessed to wage war in the name of [insert god], to kill innocents, etc. If that's not obvious, please pick up some history books. again, that's just the acknowledgement that religious fundamentalism in general is associated with such atrocities. Not that american christian conservatives are, or that islamic fundamentalists are. I'm sure there is a significant portion of each group that is entirely peaceable.

-Mach

 

[Billo_Really]

Orignally posted by Calm2Chaos:
Anyone that thinks there is a true comparison of the two is a moron. And by attempting to defend such a assanine position only solidifies just how fu.cking stupid a person like that would have to be, not to mention clueless. But comparisons like this tend be made as some lame attempt at Bush bashing anyway

What do you call:

• bombing the s.hit out of a country after they were forced to disarm
• attacking a country that did not attack yours
• using cluster bombs in urban areas
• using white phosporuous
• using depleted uranium munitions
• shooting peacful protesters
• bombing hospitals

Are these not atrocities? Or do you look the other way and make excuses for their use?

 

[Columbusite]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

It pays to remember that for centuries several Christians have acted like, well, barbarians. Locally, look at the 50's in the South, that wasn't all that long ago. Also, those American far-right Christians can use the system against itself for their goal of a "Christian nation", violence isn't necessary for the most part.

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Why:

I just don't see the christian right-

* declaring a holy war throught the world.
* Murdering innocent women in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent men in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent little boys in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent little girls in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent infants in the name of there religion and god
* Murdering innocent elderly in the name of there religion and god
* Rioting over free speech
* Rioting over cartoons
* Demanding the conversion of everyone to islam or face death
* Strapping bombs to there chest
* Hijacking airliners
* Hijacking Busses
* Hijacking trains
* Hijacking Boats
* torturing people on film and then distributing that film to be played to the sheeple that adore them
* Being apathetic when something atrocious is done in the name of the christian religion
* Assiting terrorist with food, lodging, training, money, medical.
*etc etc etc etc

Anyone that thinks there is a true comparison of the two is a moron. And by attempting to defend such a assanine position only solidifies just how fu.cking stupid a person like that would have to be, not to mention clueless. But comparisons like this tend be made as some lame attempt at Bush bashing anyway

Read the article, yes this is about bush bashing - and then some.
The world is not black and white. We are not superior and fundamentalism in any light is dangerous. This is a bush bashing thread because he says he answers to God, that he makes his decisions based on what he gets from a higher power.
Maybe one day that higher power will tell him to push the red button?

 

[jfuh]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

the problem then, is one of terminology. "christian conservatives" is way too vague.

Perhaps, However it is what Schrodinger said.
Yes it is too vague, but I think he was trying to emphasize the danger of how Bush thinks he is superior.
Don't for one moment doubt it. Many in the the middle east view our bizzare and unabased presence in Iraq as nothing but another christian crusade waged by Bush.

 

[rathi]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

The muslim and christian fundamentalist radicals share some idealogical qualities. They tend to follow some strict religous teachings, exclude anything other than their own beliefs and try and force their beliefs on others. They also tend to be far more vocal than their small numbers.

Muslim extremists tend to be far more poor and desperate and in more economic hardship and thus more violent. The wealthier christians with much more to lose tend towards legal means of exerting power, but occasionaly resort to violence ala abortion bombings.

Frankly I think both groups show 2 things.

1) Vocal and rabid minorities can really destroy the mainstream just by religous association.

2) Wealth and poverty have a massive influence on violent tendancies.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

What do you call:

• bombing the s.hit out of a country after they were forced to disarm
  That was not done by the christians in the name of christianity if you think it was that would make you an ***. Poor country should have spent the last 14 years complying with the UN and its toothless resolutions, instead it got the **** blown out of it
• attacking a country that did not attack yours
  Read above statement
• using cluster bombs in urban areas
  Effective- But also not done as a religious movement as stated above. None of the actions you state have anything to do with religious fervor or ideology. Because someone someone is christian or Muslim does not mean they do everything in the name of that religion. Thats pretty much stated when you drive a car packed with C4 into an outdoor cafe yelling "allah ahkbar"
• using white phosporuous
  Effective- But also not done as a religious movement as stated above. None of the actions you state have anything to do with religious fervor or ideology. Because someone someone is christian or Muslim does not mean they do everything in the name of that religion. Thats pretty much stated when you drive a car packed with C4 into an outdoor cafe yelling "allah ahkbar"
• using depleted uranium munitions
  Effective- But also not done as a religious movement as stated above. None of the actions you state have anything to do with religious fervor or ideology. Because someone someone is christian or Muslim does not mean they do everything in the name of that religion. Thats pretty much stated when you drive a car packed with C4 into an outdoor cafe yelling "allah ahkbar"
• shooting peacful protesters
  When has the christian movement shoot protesters of any sort in the name of there religion?
• bombing hospitals
  Effective- But also not done as a religious movement as stated above. None of the actions you state have anything to do with religious fervor or ideology. Because someone someone is christian or Muslim does not mean they do everything in the name of that religion. Thats pretty much stated when you drive a car packed with C4 into an outdoor cafe yelling "allah ahkbar"

Are these not atrocities? Or do you look the other way and make excuses for their use?

No they are not, they are war. They were not done by christians in the name of christians to advance chritianity. And you would be exactly what You are for trying to push these as anything other then your bush hating agenda. Because they have nothing to do with religion, but you knew that. Your pity party for those that try to kill US soldiers is fine. But your lame attempts at connecting these events with the christian religion is pathetic and lame............... By the way, I am not christian, so I have no real stake in the religion or its detractors at all.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Read the article, yes this is about bush bashing - and then some.
The world is not black and white. We are not superior and fundamentalism in any light is dangerous. This is a bush bashing thread because he says he answers to God, that he makes his decisions based on what he gets from a higher power.
Maybe one day that higher power will tell him to push the red button?

Course its about Bush bashing. It's what you do and all you seem to do. He is a christian, so he says. He derives his morals from his religion which is what most people do it seems. These morals he supposedly uses to make decisions. None of this is out of the ordinary. It's when you start strapping bombs to your chest, hijacking planes, blowing up busses, planes, trains, cars, bikes, skateboards and any other form of public transportation, when you target your own people and innocent ones. when you decide that everyone must belive in what you do or die. When you belive God has given you the right to dictate who should live and die. Not a single person but a group, a large group or faction with in that religion believes and supports the out right murder of innocent men woman and children.... I know you don't see the difference... I wouldn't expect you to

 

[Mach]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

When you belive God has given you the right to dictate who should live and die. Not a single person but a group, a large group or faction with in that religion believes and supports the out right murder of innocent men woman and children.... I know you don't see the difference... I wouldn't expect you to

I don't.

Correct me if I'm wrong Calm2Chaos:

Bush is christian
Bush derives his ethics from books and what other people tell him.
Bush uses these other people's morals to justify killing 30K-300K innocent Iraqi's through use of military force on a country that did not attack us, did not appear to be involve in 9/11.

How is this different? Are the women and children dying there not worth your respect in recognizing that:
1. they are dying
2. America chose to kill them based on their religion (from above)?

Iraqis as a population were not terrorising anyone, but now american is clearly killing them.

See how this has nothing to do with Bush? You can replace the name "Bush", with ANYONE doing the same thing, and the facts remain. Debate the behavior, not the person, debate the issues, not the party. Else, you're a tool.

-Mach

 

[Patrickt]

I believe the issue is radicalism and not the specific nature. A radical communist, Christian, Moslem, environmentalist, animal rights, anti-growth, or whatever share some common characteristics.

They know the truth, you don't, and it's their job to force you to change your behavior.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

I don't.

Correct me if I'm wrong Calm2Chaos:

Bush is christian

Correct

Bush derives his ethics from books and what other people tell him.

Correct - As does virtually everyone in the world to some degree

Bush uses these other people's morals to justify killing 30K-300K innocent Iraqi's through use of military force on a country that did not attack us, did not appear to be involve in 9/11.

Incorrect - I don't recall the president ever saying that he is killing anyone in the name of christianity or god. I don't recall him ever saying anything concerning pushing his religion or religious beliefs on Iraq, as the reason for the attack. The president, and the military go above and beyond in attempts to limit civilian casulaties. The people doing the killing in this country are terrorist and other Iraqis.

How is this different? Are the women and children dying there not worth your respect in recognizing that:
1. they are dying

True

2. America chose to kill them based on their religion (from above)?

Untrue. If this dumb fu.cking statement was true we would be carpet bombing mecca. This sounds like more anti-US anti-bush babble of made up facts. If this country wanted to just wipe tem out because of the religion we would be able to do it without ever putting a soldier in harms way. And we would be targeting a much larger area, like the whoile ME. Then follow it up with the large population in this country of muslims. Sorry but another assanine statement, im betting there more

The Americans are not the ones doing the killing, the vast majority of deaths in this country are from terrorist and Iraqi's.

Iraqis as a population were not terrorising anyone, but now american is clearly killing them.

This statement is almost to stupid for me to actually comment on. We are not at war with the people of Iraq. I don't remeber the last time any war was ever waged against the citizens of a country. You war against the government, millitary, rebels, insurgents, terrorist, ideas, ideals etc etc, but never the people. Unfortunately they are the ones that tend to take the brunt of the punishment. Specially in this case since there own people are targeting them.

Can you name me one war or conflict in the history of the world that was prompted by the attack of the whole population of another country. Can you PLZZZZZZZZZZZ show me when the population of a country has ever started a conflict ...PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ EVER... JUST ONCE!!!!! ONE TIME PLZZZZZZZZZZZZ

you are clearly wrong and are now making bullsh.it statements that are based in almost complete fabrication. Lying doesn't make it true no matter how often you say it. The death is this country is not being served out by the US military or the US, but by the terrorist, "freedom fighters" "insurgents" and/or Iraqi's.

See how this has nothing to do with Bush? You can replace the name "Bush", with ANYONE doing the same thing, and the facts remain. Debate the behavior, not the person, debate the issues, not the party. Else, you're a tool.

Has everything to do with Bush.. You know how I know that.. He said so!!!

Read the article, yes this is about bush bashing - and then some.

Not to mention it's obvious as another bashing thread..

The tool would be you if you believe the sorry excuse of bullshit you just posted