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American Capitalism Isn’t Working.

It also doesn't remotely describe the suggestion in the article.

The author isn't a Communist. The author isn't suggesting that everyone gets paid the exact same wage. The author isn't suggesting that the proletariat will smash the capitalist class and seize the means of production.

The author is only pointing out that income inequality has grown, because corporate executives have lost the sense that "we, as a society, are in this together." What they are doing is capturing all the rewards of the increased productivity, and leaving everyone else to twist in the wind. Since executives are highly unlikely to correct this on their own, he suggests a small change, which is emblematic of what we can do to try and fix the situation -- in this case, let the employees elect 40% of the Board of Directors.

The idea that this modest change is equivalent to advocating a Soviet-style economy is, well, kind of insane. Or, at the very least, indicates that you didn't bother to read the article.

Marx nor Engels never suggested everyone received the same wage. The Soviet economy was never a true communist economic system, merely one of many. When has it been a necessity for corporate governance to represent the needs beyond those of stockholders? What fantasy world are you living in? Life is not a Frank Capra movie.

When Henry Ford decided he would receive higher productivity from his workers and they would become his customers he was fantasizing at best, his workers went on strike beyond the workers of other auto companies and they bought Fords because of the discounts. No one said anything about a soviet style economy. You should try reading Marx and his studies of planned American societies, whereby he suggested the need to have the state substitute for religious organizations. Stalin was not a Marxist, that was Trotsky who Stalin saw as an enemy and had assassinated as a Jew in exile, in Mexico. Read, read, read more.
 
You are not worth debating.

You aren't debating.

You went off on a tangent about drug dealing which is illegal.

Since you didn't understand my point, I will ask it more simply.

Do you want uninterested outside influences telling you how and when to discipline your child, or wash your dishes or when you can have another baby?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
I know this is a crazy question but why is the kind of economic inequality we have in America Today a bad thing?
That isn't a crazy question at all.

In the post-war period up to the 1970s, everyone benefited from the rise in prosperity. The standard of living for everyone improved.

This changed in the late 1970s, because the top 1-5% started capturing all the gains. This means that everyone else's standard of living basically stagnated.

This was partly set off by the rise of readily available credit, and the 30 year fixed-rate mortgage (only made possible by government intervention, btw). Even these small gains were thwarted by making bankruptcy laws more punitive, and the effects of the housing bubble (exacerbated by the machinations of the financial sector). However, we are increasingly in a society where people are leveraged to the hilt, have minimal retirement savings, and have little or no cushion for emergencies. More important for the economy as a whole is that when everyone except the top 5% are stretched, they can't afford to spend, and that hurts the economy. This is one of many reasons why growth is slowing -- people can't afford to buy enough goods and services to make 3% growth sustainable.


Another major issue is that as the top earners stockpile more capital, they can spend it on lobbying elected officials, and twisting the system to their own benefit. As a result, we've seen taxes for top earners fall almost every year since the 80s. This increasingly alienates the public from the political process, because elected officials ignore them, and only pay attention to the handful of wealthy contributors.

It also tilts government action towards the wealthy. We had a massive financial crisis largely caused by the financial sector and irresponsible lending, and the government bails out... most of the financial sector and irresponsible lenders, while doing almost nothing for the ordinary citizens who lost their homes because of those manipulations.


As these striations solidify, it becomes harder for people to improve their economic condition based on merit. In a perfectly meritocratic society, someone born in a family in the bottom income quintile should have a 20% chance of ending up in any income group; and the same would happen to someone in the top income group. That doesn't happen. Instead, people born in the bottom quintile are highly likely to stay there; people born in the top are also highly likely to stay in the top.

economix-10relativeincomemobility-blog480-v2.jpg


We should note that numerous societies with better safety nets and higher taxes on the super-wealthy do better than the US when it comes to economic mobility.

I.e. the American Dream, that you can get ahead if you work hard, is basically a lie. People born into a poor family face substantial headwinds, while people born into affluent families have a huge tailwind.


Why should I as an investor be punished with higher than market labour costs when my company is doing less well?
Why should the CEO be paid 350 times more than the rank and file employees? Why aren't you complaining to the board that the CEO is overpaid? Would they listen to you if you complained about CEO pay?


In a business of 100 people - sure great idea as it reflects the realities of a small to midsized businesses. In a business of 100s of thousands - that is only going to worsen the problems of short term thinking over long term gains….a cultural issue. Not to mention bankrupt a lot more companies.
The opposite is the case. Having a Board in thrall to top executives is what has gotten us into this pattern of short-term boost-the-stock-price-at-all-costs mentality.


It's been proven time and again, free voting is not an effective way of electing representation in terms of efficient direction of large organizations ….look at the federal governments books…
By law, German companies with more than 2000 workers must let the employees choose 40% of the Board. It works pretty well.

Federal spending is not remotely comparable to selecting a Board of Directors.


Now if "economic class mobility" is our objective we can make gains taking idea from both the left and right…economic inquality though is a non starter...at least until someone proves there is a way to avoid it without making the whole signifgantly poorer and less innovative. And that is what the data suggests.
When you increase economic inequality, you also reduce economic mobility.
 
Marx nor Engels never suggested everyone received the same wage. The Soviet economy was never a true communist economic system, merely one of many.
And again... Suggesting that employees vote for 40% of the Board does not, in any way shape or form, resemble either Marxism or Communism.


When has it been a necessity for corporate governance to represent the needs beyond those of stockholders?
Read the article. It's always been necessary. Corporations in the postwar period were more attentive to employees and customers than they are today. They weren't perfect -- e.g. the Big Three made ****ty cars, while management and the unions antagonized each other, for years until foreign competition forced them to get their act together -- but it was better. Focusing exclusively on shareholders and the hourly stock price, while the executives reap all the rewards from increased productivity, results in a mercenary and unequal society that stunts its own economic growth and security.

Fixing this doesn't require a proletariat uprising and the destruction of market economies. It can be made better with moderate steps like improving education, improving the safety net (without creating welfare traps), and encouraging corporations to be more responsible and take better care of its employees, ultimately benefits everyone.


You should try reading Marx and his studies of planned American societies, whereby he suggested the need to have the state substitute for religious organizations. Stalin was not a Marxist, that was Trotsky who Stalin saw as an enemy and had assassinated as a Jew in exile, in Mexico. Read, read, read more.
I've already read Marx; he didn't specify a post-revolution political structure. The author of the article is not a Marxist. Thus, discussion of Marx is not relevant here.

The article is not advocating Stalinism, not even close. Thus, discussion of Stalin, Stalinism, and Communism in general is not relevant.

And again.... The author of the article is NOT saying that "everyone gets the same outcome." He's saying "we need to make incomes more equal, and this is one way to accomplish that goal." And again, lots of people on the left do not hold the views you ascribe to them. I.e. it is you, not me, who is engaged in an unsupportable mischaracterization.
 
In 1944 I don't think universities even offered an MBA degree. That is significant in the context of the current discussion. People are trained for business who never actually ran a business and are automatically experts with the MBA.
 
I don’t really want to assume anything but, I’m taking this post as a one of these new Justice democrats or a Sanders believer that he will make everything equal and fair. What parts are not working? Is it wages?
 
I don’t really want to assume anything but, I’m taking this post as a one of these new Justice democrats or a Sanders believer that he will make everything equal and fair. What parts are not working? Is it wages?


Taking what post? What are you referring to?
 
At this point in time, the donor class gets its way over the voter class most of the time.

In other words, if the voters want something and the donor class does not, we don't get whatever it is.

And vice versa.

We are being concentrated down to more on par with the third world because our status addicts are jealous of the rate at which the status addicts in those countries are amassing wealth/status.

Oh so basically this is what I’m getting at is. You are blaming the wealthy because they made a successful lifestyle and you are a joe blow living on pay check or pay check? Right
 
Not so long ago, corporate leaders understood they had a stake in the country’s prosperity.

She has proposed a bill in the Senate — and Ben Ray Luján, a top House Democrat, will soon offer it there — that would require corporate boards to take into account the interests of customers, employees and communities. To make sure that happens, 40 percent of a company’s board seats would be elected by employees. Germany uses a version of this “shared-governance” model, mostly successfully.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/opinion/elizabeth-warren-2020-accountable-capitalism.html
What makes you think corporate leaders still don't understand their roll in the country's prosperity? PS - Warren is a whack job fool.
 
Oh so basically this is what I’m getting at is. You are blaming the wealthy because they made a successful lifestyle and you are a joe blow living on pay check or pay check? Right


No. Laws have been enacted to help the wealthy get wealthier. Case in point: Hedge fund managers do not pay the normal income tax but the much lower capital gains tax on their income.
 
What makes you think corporate leaders still don't understand their roll in the country's prosperity?

Because I'm conscious. Pretty obvious.
 
And again.... The author of the article is NOT saying that "everyone gets the same outcome." He's saying "we need to make incomes more equal, and this is one way to accomplish that goal." And again, lots of people on the left do not hold the views you ascribe to them. I.e. it is you, not me, who is engaged in an unsupportable mischaracterization.

One and the same, or do you not understand?
 
Taking what post? What are you referring to?

I’m trying to figure out what’s the idea behind the post because capitalism is working! This country has some flaws with the system but, capitalism is evil and, it is evil to a degree. Capitalism is working our economy is involved around capitalism.
 
I’m trying to figure out what’s the idea behind the post because capitalism is working! This country has some flaws with the system but, capitalism is evil and, it is evil to a degree. Capitalism is working our economy is involved around capitalism.

Oh, you didn't look at the article.
 
Not so long ago, corporate leaders understood they had a stake in the country’s prosperity.

She has proposed a bill in the Senate — and Ben Ray Luján, a top House Democrat, will soon offer it there — that would require corporate boards to take into account the interests of customers, employees and communities. To make sure that happens, 40 percent of a company’s board seats would be elected by employees. Germany uses a version of this “shared-governance” model, mostly successfully.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/opinion/elizabeth-warren-2020-accountable-capitalism.html

Economy BOOMING, consumer confidence at alltime high, more money in peoples' pockets, RECORD LOW UNEMPLOYMENT....who is it "not working for"...the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE???
 
No. Laws have been enacted to help the wealthy get wealthier. Case in point: Hedge fund managers do not pay the normal income tax but the much lower capital gains tax on their income.

So challenge the laws! The way I look at it is we can complain about it because we can but, at the end of the day, we were built on capitalism
 
So challenge the laws! The way I look at it is we can complain about it because we can but, at the end of the day, we were built on capitalism


Yes, change the laws. We agree. Nothing in the article calls for abolishing capitalism.
 
Oh so basically this is what I’m getting at is. You are blaming the wealthy because they made a successful lifestyle and you are a joe blow living on pay check or pay check? Right

Nope.

Hunger for power and status is an addiction to neurochemical rewards.

That's how our brains work.

The member of any species with the best access to resources is the most likely to reproduce.

In social species, this manifests as "status". The higher in the pecking order you are the better you eat.

Therefore, status advancing behaviors are strongly rewarded.

What we call greed is actually status seeking.

There was no wealth while we were wandering around.

We got wealth, and the manager class, and wage labor only after we settled down and started growing our food.

Ever since, history is a pattern of those at the top taking ever more to feed their status/power addictions until their actions make life untenable for the masses and this masses force them to stop or the society collapses.

We are doing it again.

Our government works for the donor class over the citizenry. Demonstrably.

And those who get off on wealth and power will never stop on their own.

So save the conservative envy canard.
 
Nope.

Hunger for power and status is an addiction to neurochemical rewards.

That's how our brains work.

The member of any species with the best access to resources is the most likely to reproduce.

In social species, this manifests as "status". The higher in the pecking order you are the better you eat.

Therefore, status advancing behaviors are strongly rewarded.

What we call greed is actually status seeking.

There was no wealth while we were wandering around.

We got wealth, and the manager class, and wage labor only after we settled down and started growing our food.

Ever since, history is a pattern of those at the top taking ever more to feed their status/power addictions until their actions make life untenable for the masses and this masses force them to stop or the society collapses.

We are doing it again.

Our government works for the donor class over the citizenry. Demonstrably.

And those who get off on wealth and power will never stop on their own.

So save the conservative envy canard.

There's some merit to some of that. What of those upon which power and status is hoisted? But I think my most pertinent question would be, why do you hate paragraphs?
 
What makes you think corporate leaders still don't understand their roll in the country's prosperity? PS - Warren is a whack job fool.

The fact that most of them are hopelessly addicted to the pleasurable chemicals their brains give them for acquiring better access to resources. Which is what "drives" them to succeed.

The problem is those rewards evolved when everybody knew each other and everybody was an apex predator.

We just told grog to stfu when he tried to get us to pick all the fruit in exchange for a couple of pieces because he saw the tree first.

Now they sit on high in almost full ownership of our government which does what they want over what the rest of us want most of the time.

If nothing is done we will end up like every other society that ended in collapse or rebellion because of these behaviors.
 
Well, it is Capital Gains, and they pay the higher rate for Short term gains, just like the rest of us.
No. Laws have been enacted to help the wealthy get wealthier. Case in point: Hedge fund managers do not pay the normal income tax but the much lower capital gains tax on their income.
 
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