Am I being mean to an old man?

[MaggieD]

Some of you may know the story of John and mom. If not, then this thread may not make much sense because I'm not going to totally rehash it.

In very brief, mom came to live with me last August. She's in end-stage congestive heart failure and may end up in a nursing home. In the meantime, John (who's been mom's significant other for 47 years - and who moved in with her eleven years ago), is still living in her home. The only way I'll get him out is either through eviction (heaven help Maggie going before the judge to evict an 86-year-old man) or his death or incapacitation. He pays the utilities and has been 'gifting' mom, probably, $500 a month or a little more for the privilege. Our deal is he pays for the real estate taxes, house insurance, and any and all repairs/maintenance on the house excluding a new roof, should it need one.

This makes the house, along with mom and her myriad problems, my responsibility. I can't handle it anymore. I'm sick of paying the utilities and billing John...hearing him complain about the house...listen to him dry beg the neighbors for help maintaining it...and accuse me and everybody else of taking advantage of him. I want to sell the house.

There is also the chance that mom's funds will run out. If Medicaid takes over, they will look at her home to make sure it was sold at a fair price. Or, I'd assume, make sure that asset was properly handled and not used to "gift" assets out of her name. Medicaid is ruthless, as they should be, in my opinion.

But I simply cannot BRING myself to evict him - which is what it would take. So I think I'm ready to give him two choices:

1. Get the lowest down/dirty number I can get from closings in the neighborhood and offer to sell him the house at that price LESS a 5% real estate commission and LESS $10,000 for the convenience of not having to market the house and being able to just sign it over. He's got money; he can easily afford it.
2. Or he can formally rent the house from mom for $1500 a month, with a $3000 security deposit, first/last month's rent; and a 60-day lease with him being responsible for all major/minor repairs and maintenance excluding a new roof.

Out of that $18,000 a year will come $1,000 for insurance, $4,000 for real estate taxes, probably $3,000 in state/federal income tax; and $500 in professional fees for her year-end taxes. I'm still dealing with the house if only as a landlord. And neither mom nor I wish to do the very STUPID thing of renting out a single-family home for income.

I plan to give John a heads-up today that things are going to change and let him know an attorney we both use will be contacting him with all the details.

Tell me this is fair. Or tell me I'm being mean to an old man?

 

[TheNextEra]

[*]Or he can formally rent the house from mom for $1500 a month, with a $3000 security deposit, first/last month's rent; and a 60-day lease with him being responsible for all major/minor repairs and maintenance excluding a new roof.

If you go with this option, just be sure you know your state's rental policies. Some states don't allow major repairs to be the rentee's responsibility. Of course, my idea of major repairs and yours may differ as well.

 

[Thom Paine]

You may wish to have the attorney handle all the details and you refuse to directly discuss those details with John. Also, who is paying the attorney... the attorney is in the employ of he who retains him and cannot and should not be expected to serve two masters.

my 2 cents

Good fortune Ste. Maggie

Thom Paine

 

[CanadaJohn]

Some of you may know the story of John and mom. If not, then this thread may not make much sense because I'm not going to totally rehash it.

In very brief, mom came to live with me last August. She's in end-stage congestive heart failure and may end up in a nursing home. In the meantime, John (who's been mom's significant other for 47 years - and who moved in with her eleven years ago), is still living in her home. The only way I'll get him out is either through eviction (heaven help Maggie going before the judge to evict an 86-year-old man) or his death or incapacitation. He pays the utilities and has been 'gifting' mom, probably, $500 a month or a little more for the privilege. Our deal is he pays for the real estate taxes, house insurance, and any and all repairs/maintenance on the house excluding a new roof, should it need one.

This makes the house, along with mom and her myriad problems, my responsibility. I can't handle it anymore. I'm sick of paying the utilities and billing John...hearing him complain about the house...listen to him dry beg the neighbors for help maintaining it...and accuse me and everybody else of taking advantage of him. I want to sell the house.

There is also the chance that mom's funds will run out. If Medicaid takes over, they will look at her home to make sure it was sold at a fair price. Or, I'd assume, make sure that asset was properly handled and not used to "gift" assets out of her name. Medicaid is ruthless, as they should be, in my opinion.

But I simply cannot BRING myself to evict him - which is what it would take. So I think I'm ready to give him two choices:

1. Get the lowest down/dirty number I can get from closings in the neighborhood and offer to sell him the house at that price LESS a 5% real estate commission and LESS $10,000 for the convenience of not having to market the house and being able to just sign it over. He's got money; he can easily afford it.
2. Or he can formally rent the house from mom for $1500 a month, with a $3000 security deposit, first/last month's rent; and a 60-day lease with him being responsible for all major/minor repairs and maintenance excluding a new roof.

Out of that $18,000 a year will come $1,000 for insurance, $4,000 for real estate taxes, probably $3,000 in state/federal income tax; and $500 in professional fees for her year-end taxes. I'm still dealing with the house if only as a landlord. And neither mom nor I wish to do the very STUPID thing of renting out a single-family home for income.

I plan to give John a heads-up today that things are going to change and let him know an attorney we both use will be contacting him with all the details.

Tell me this is fair. Or tell me I'm being mean to an old man?

Hi Maggie,

I don't know laws in your jurisdiction, but here if you were to formalize a rental agreement such as you're contemplating, then you place a lot of residency rights in John's hands that he doesn't or may not have right now and it may be far more difficult to remove him from the premises.

As I see it, you have two choices:

1. Put the house up for sale and once sold inform John of the closing date and provide him with some assistance in relocating to a place of his liking. By offering assistance, you're not indicating he has rights but you are setting some history with respect to the reasonableness of your conduct vis-a-vis his residence in your mom's home. You've been laying down hints with John for a long time now and talk hasn't really gotten you anywhere because stringing you along doesn't adversely affect him one bit.

2. Enter into a rental agreement with John, with very detailed provisions as per rental law in your jurisdiction, and then farm out management of the rental agreement and the house to an agent in the business of doing this for landlords. Whatever that agent costs is deductible from any income generated from the rent as would be any maintenance and repairs that you as landlord would be responsible for. As long as the arrangement generates a net income gain, all expenses considered, you're safe from a tax and legal perspective. The benefit of the agent is that it takes enforcement of the rental agreement out of your hands and turns it from a personal arrangement to a strictly business arrangement. If John doesn't live up to the terms of the arrangement, the agent will manage enforcement and, if necessary, begin eviction procedures on your behalf. It will be strictly a legal procedure and nothing personal. Courts don't care if you're 86 or 26 - if you're not living up to your contractual commitments, you suffer the consequences.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck and lots of patience.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Some of you may know the story of John and mom. If not, then this thread may not make much sense because I'm not going to totally rehash it.

In very brief, mom came to live with me last August. She's in end-stage congestive heart failure and may end up in a nursing home. In the meantime, John (who's been mom's significant other for 47 years - and who moved in with her eleven years ago), is still living in her home. The only way I'll get him out is either through eviction (heaven help Maggie going before the judge to evict an 86-year-old man) or his death or incapacitation. He pays the utilities and has been 'gifting' mom, probably, $500 a month or a little more for the privilege. Our deal is he pays for the real estate taxes, house insurance, and any and all repairs/maintenance on the house excluding a new roof, should it need one.

This makes the house, along with mom and her myriad problems, my responsibility. I can't handle it anymore. I'm sick of paying the utilities and billing John...hearing him complain about the house...listen to him dry beg the neighbors for help maintaining it...and accuse me and everybody else of taking advantage of him. I want to sell the house.

There is also the chance that mom's funds will run out. If Medicaid takes over, they will look at her home to make sure it was sold at a fair price. Or, I'd assume, make sure that asset was properly handled and not used to "gift" assets out of her name. Medicaid is ruthless, as they should be, in my opinion.

But I simply cannot BRING myself to evict him - which is what it would take. So I think I'm ready to give him two choices:

1. Get the lowest down/dirty number I can get from closings in the neighborhood and offer to sell him the house at that price LESS a 5% real estate commission and LESS $10,000 for the convenience of not having to market the house and being able to just sign it over. He's got money; he can easily afford it.
2. Or he can formally rent the house from mom for $1500 a month, with a $3000 security deposit, first/last month's rent; and a 60-day lease with him being responsible for all major/minor repairs and maintenance excluding a new roof.

Out of that $18,000 a year will come $1,000 for insurance, $4,000 for real estate taxes, probably $3,000 in state/federal income tax; and $500 in professional fees for her year-end taxes. I'm still dealing with the house if only as a landlord. And neither mom nor I wish to do the very STUPID thing of renting out a single-family home for income.

I plan to give John a heads-up today that things are going to change and let him know an attorney we both use will be contacting him with all the details.

Tell me this is fair. Or tell me I'm being mean to an old man?

Everyone else has some very good input, especially CanadaJohn.

I would add one thing - in my state, the person that pays the property taxes, after a certain time (I think it's seven years), can get a Quit Claim on the property and seize ownership. Ask your attorney about the taxes that John has paid if he did so directly.

 

[Empirica]

Regarding John_

Dear sweet Maggie__the problem is not John__the problem is you!

You're much too kind, caring and compassionate; which makes you an easy mark for users like John_

You can't be responsible for the "johns" of the world and should accept this absolute fact immediately_

Personally hand deliver a non-negotiable ultimatum to John; complete with deadline and mean it_

Now go put that squatter out of your mamma's house and revel in your new found power and conviction_

(my daddy taught me when and how to be mean__he said I was a natural) :nails

 

[Superfly]

Sorry, Ms. Maggie. I am in full agreement with Empirica here. He's using you and you are giving him permission.

Tell him, in no uncertain terms, that the house is going on the market in "x" days. You will give him 60 days from the day you tell him to vacate. Do everything with a lawyer, and don't let him get the better of you. He has a million dollars. He is just using you. He doesn't need to live here because he's a pitiful old man. He chooses to live here because he can.

Old people can be wily. They use the fact that they are elderly to get you to feel sorry for them. Old John? He's crazy, though. Crazy like a fox. He knows full well what he is doing, and when you do finally give him notice, he'll probably (in his mind) be saying, "What took you so long?"

 

[Removable Mind]

Some of you may know the story of John and mom. If not, then this thread may not make much sense because I'm not going to totally rehash it.

In very brief, mom came to live with me last August. She's in end-stage congestive heart failure and may end up in a nursing home. In the meantime, John (who's been mom's significant other for 47 years - and who moved in with her eleven years ago), is still living in her home. The only way I'll get him out is either through eviction (heaven help Maggie going before the judge to evict an 86-year-old man) or his death or incapacitation. He pays the utilities and has been 'gifting' mom, probably, $500 a month or a little more for the privilege. Our deal is he pays for the real estate taxes, house insurance, and any and all repairs/maintenance on the house excluding a new roof, should it need one.

This makes the house, along with mom and her myriad problems, my responsibility. I can't handle it anymore. I'm sick of paying the utilities and billing John...hearing him complain about the house...listen to him dry beg the neighbors for help maintaining it...and accuse me and everybody else of taking advantage of him. I want to sell the house.

There is also the chance that mom's funds will run out. If Medicaid takes over, they will look at her home to make sure it was sold at a fair price. Or, I'd assume, make sure that asset was properly handled and not used to "gift" assets out of her name. Medicaid is ruthless, as they should be, in my opinion.

But I simply cannot BRING myself to evict him - which is what it would take. So I think I'm ready to give him two choices:

1. Get the lowest down/dirty number I can get from closings in the neighborhood and offer to sell him the house at that price LESS a 5% real estate commission and LESS $10,000 for the convenience of not having to market the house and being able to just sign it over. He's got money; he can easily afford it.
2. Or he can formally rent the house from mom for $1500 a month, with a $3000 security deposit, first/last month's rent; and a 60-day lease with him being responsible for all major/minor repairs and maintenance excluding a new roof.

Out of that $18,000 a year will come $1,000 for insurance, $4,000 for real estate taxes, probably $3,000 in state/federal income tax; and $500 in professional fees for her year-end taxes. I'm still dealing with the house if only as a landlord. And neither mom nor I wish to do the very STUPID thing of renting out a single-family home for income.

I plan to give John a heads-up today that things are going to change and let him know an attorney we both use will be contacting him with all the details.

Tell me this is fair. Or tell me I'm being mean to an old man?

You may have some legal issues, Maggie. Now, don't take this at face value. Food for thought more than anything.

Are you legal guardian to your mom? And depending on where you live, some family courts honor power of attorney, but when it comes to selling real estate, it can get stick with on a power of attorney. Power of attorney in Texas can be worthless at times.

Are you familiar with common law marriage statutes in your state? He may have right of tenancy...if he's been living with your mom over ten years. And that right might be good until she or he passes away. And if your mom has a will...is he in it? If he is did she give him the right to remain in the house after she passes?

Have they co-mingled their money over the years? It doesn't sound like he's been all that involved in home improvements so that probably won't be an issue.

I don't have a clue how anything I just posted is valid in your situation. Texas laws might well be different in every respect. But these issues might be worth checking out.

 

[MaggieD]

You may have some legal issues, Maggie. Now, don't take this at face value. Food for thought more than anything.

Are you legal guardian to your mom? And depending on where you live, some family courts honor power of attorney, but when it comes to selling real estate, it can get stick with on a power of attorney. Power of attorney in Texas can be worthless at times.

Are you familiar with common law marriage statutes in your state? He may have right of tenancy...if he's been living with your mom over ten years. And that right might be good until she or he passes away. And if your mom has a will...is he in it? If he is did she give him the right to remain in the house after she passes?

Have they co-mingled their money over the years? It doesn't sound like he's been all that involved in home improvements so that probably won't be an issue.

I don't have a clue how anything I just posted is valid in your situation. Texas laws might well be different in every respect. But these issues might be worth checking out.

All the issues you raised are legitimate. Illinois doesn't recognize common law. I checked when Tom moved in with me 14 years ago. His rights to live in the house are the same as a 30-day tenant. John isn't in mom's will. I checked with the attorney this morning re whether or not her POA works to sell the house, although at present, she could probably sign the deed herself. He said the POA would have to be registered with the county, but it would be no problem. They never mingled their money for which I'm grateful.

All worthy of discussion. Thanks for your thoughtful response.