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"ALL moral standards and values are man-made"

tosca1 said:
That's what Hard Truth had claimed in another section.

I'm saying, God is the basis for all morals - it's the standard from which moral values are based.


I'd like to try to prove this. So I'd like for you to please answer this.


If I shoot a pedestrian in the face with a shotgun.......is that good or bad?
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I think you have it backward. I dont think God is the basis for all morals. But morals are the basis for our view of God.

For the record I do believe that there is a God. However as humans we have no idea of the expectations of God. Various groups of people at various times have determined what God expects of us based largely on their morals. They could be right, they could be wrong or somewhere in between. Noone knows. Since we have determined how people should behave and what is right or wrong based the morals of people and then applied those to the wishes of various Gods, then morals are the basis of God, not God the basis for morals.
 
Kreton said:
I think you have it backward. I dont think God is the basis for all morals. But morals are the basis for our view of God.

For the record I do believe that there is a God. However as humans we have no idea of the expectations of God. Various groups of people at various times have determined what God expects of us based largely on their morals. They could be right, they could be wrong or somewhere in between. Noone knows. Since we have determined how people should behave and what is right or wrong based the morals of people and then applied those to the wishes of various Gods, then morals are the basis of God, not God the basis for morals.
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We've gone through that already. View this video so you'll understand where I'm coming from. It shows a very simple explanation.

 
Quag said:
Nope not the same.
Sorry strawman fails.
Slavery and indentured servitude remain immoral and if you think otherwise then you are immoral.
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Slavery is immoral by my standards. I am sure it is by yours and most people in the world. But that hasn't always been the case. Throughout history all (or at least most) civilizations and areas of the world have used slavery. They certainly did not see slavery as immoral. The human species has evolved, and that includes morals.

Same could be said of indentured servitude. Personally if both parties are willing participants for a reasonable cause, I don't morally object. Others certainly would.

The statements "slavery and indentured servitude remain immoral" and "you are immoral" are certainly subjective.
 
tosca1 said:
We've gone through that already. View this video so you'll understand where I'm coming from. It shows a very simple explanation.

Click to expand...


The video is subjective. Just because you want a moral to be objective doesnt make it so. The fact is that the God for moral objectivity is insanely flawed. The morals of people of whatever faith you are have changed over the centuries. For this video to have even a chance at being true, then the bolded statement I have just made would have to be false. And it is not.
 
Kreton said:
Slavery is immoral by my standards. I am sure it is by yours and most people in the world. But that hasn't always been the case. Throughout history all (or at least most) civilizations and areas of the world have used slavery. They certainly did not see slavery as immoral. The human species has evolved, and that includes morals.

Same could be said of indentured servitude. Personally if both parties are willing participants for a reasonable cause, I don't morally object. Others certainly would.

The statements "slavery and indentured servitude remain immoral" and "you are immoral" are certainly subjective.
Click to expand...

Of course they are subjective, that is the whole point. Tosca is claiming they are objective and that the Bible is the measurement of morals. However as our (by our I mean modern western civilization) morals and those of biblical times are different then this fails as a measurement and morals remain subjective
 
Quag said:
Of course they are subjective, that is the whole point. Tosca is claiming they are objective and that the Bible is the measurement of morals. However as our (by our I mean modern western civilization) morals and those of biblical times are different then this fails as a measurement and morals remain subjective
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Yea I agree. I replied to your post and read the others after. I thought you were making a different point than you were.
 
tosca1 said:
That's what Hard Truth had claimed in another section.
I'm saying, God is the basis for all morals - it's the standard from which moral values are based.
I'd like to try to prove this. So I'd like for you to please answer this.
If I shoot a pedestrian in the face with a shotgun.......is that good or bad?
Click to expand...
1. Which 'god'? Many have Different 'morals.'
The usual myopia utopia.

2. Clearly man created all gods, and wrote all the Holy Books. So man created morals.
And No, you cannot prove otherwise.
If you could, there'd be no reason for any debate.

and so another ridiculous 'god string' ends. (for all logical purpose anyway)
 
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Eighty four pages, I can't believe you people haven't figured this out yet. The bible actually tells us who God is. But you have to be good with philosophy, and really good with logic, to solve the equation.

But I'll give you a hint: There's no such thing as a "tabula rasa," or blank slate. The very fact that you debate proves that point.
 
betuadollar said:
Eighty four pages, I can't believe you people haven't figured this out yet. The bible actually tells us who God is. But you have to be good with philosophy, and really good with logic, to solve the equation.

But I'll give you a hint: There's no such as a "tabula rasa," or blank slate.
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Which Bible?

And the Bible is a highly edited piece of work.

And there is a titulous rasa.
 
betuadollar said:
I think we should leave it to the scholars to determine what the bible is. They've done Ok so far.
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They have determined that it is a book filled with fables and lessons that were written by man.
 
Kreton said:
Slavery is immoral by my standards. I am sure it is by yours and most people in the world. But that hasn't always been the case. Throughout history all (or at least most) civilizations and areas of the world have used slavery. They certainly did not see slavery as immoral. The human species has evolved, and that includes morals.

Same could be said of indentured servitude. Personally if both parties are willing participants for a reasonable cause, I don't morally object. Others certainly would.

The statements "slavery and indentured servitude remain immoral" and "you are immoral" are certainly subjective.
Click to expand...

That means Christianity is immoral, because it supports slavery. slavery to God.
 
betuadollar said:
Well yea. I can sense the level of disparagement. Meaning you are either a former Roman Catholic who believed it the infallible Finger of God, or, you haven't been paying attention.
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Apparently your ability to sense things about/within others is pretty dismal...
 
Kreton said:
The video is subjective. Just because you want a moral to be objective doesnt make it so. The fact is that the God for moral objectivity is insanely flawed. The morals of people of whatever faith you are have changed over the centuries. For this video to have even a chance at being true, then the bolded statement I have just made would have to be false. And it is not.
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Your bolded statement means nothing to this argument. It's not a rebuttal since it's not even an argument at all.
Who says morals can't be subjective?

We're talking about the OBJECTIVE moral standards! Understand what's being explained from the video.
 
mbig said:
1. Which 'god'? Many have Different 'morals.'
The usual myopia utopia.
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It's the Abrahamic God. There are evidences given for His existence - which means all other gods are false gods.


Refer to post #781.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232428-god-abraham-creator-designer-79.html





2. Clearly man created all gods, and wrote all the Holy Books. So man created morals.
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Clearly you must have an evidence to support such incredible claim you make that man created God - the One known as the Supreme Being in
Philosophical discussions?

Where is your evidence?




And No, you cannot prove otherwise.
If you could, there'd be no reason for any debate.

and so another ridiculous 'god string' ends. (for all logical purpose anyway)
Click to expand...

You don't even have a single argument - whether empirical evidence, or rational reason - for your position, and here you are saying,
I don't have any proof?


So far I'd given 10 evidences for God. Here they are - read them:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/232358-there-god-w-262-890-a-96.html


Whereas......you have Z E R O.
 
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tosca1 said:
Your bolded statement means nothing to this argument. It's not a rebuttal since it's not even an argument at all.
Who says morals can't be subjective?

We're talking about the OBJECTIVE moral standards! Understand what's being explained from the video.
Click to expand...

The video is not proof of anything. Its not even a logical argument.

There is no such thing as an objective moral. It doesn't exist. It can't exist. Your video claims that God's morals and religious morals are objective, however they have changed over the years and therefore they cannot be objective by definition.
 
Kreton said:
The video is not proof of anything. Its not even a logical argument.

There is no such thing as an objective moral. It doesn't exist. It can't exist. Your video claims that God's morals and religious morals are objective, however they have changed over the years and therefore they cannot be objective by definition.
Click to expand...

Believe what you want.
 
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