• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Airlines are ordered by DOT to give full refunds instead of vouchers and to stop hiding fees

If I am not mistaken, this is often due to their prior flight being delayed and missing their connection.
That, and people rebook. It depends on what the cities are, business cities have higher no-shows, vacation cities not as much. I made it on stand by on overbooked flights. As an airline retiree, I'm behind active employees, which can suck.
 
Our problem is population density. Even in China, many of their highspeed rail routes lose money.
Disagree. Our problem is lack of vision and an inability to invest in our future. The population density, particularly in the Northeast US out to Chicago supports high speed rail. Actually, lower density between cities would be lower acquisition and build out costs for the rail lines.

The corridors from Atlanta to Boston; San Diego to San Francisco (and Las Vegas); Eugene to Vancouver; New York to Chicago and St Louis to Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis; and Trans-Ohio, would all make sense for high speed or high speed/high frequency rail. Trains are a far more efficient way to travel 300 miles than auto or planes.

Amtrak Vision 2035.webp
 
Last edited:
I fly free on AA, standby, or 20% off the lowest fare. I also get 20% discount on frequent Flier points. Wife has been too busy with medical stuff to fly.much. We are going somewhere over Memorial day weekend, it's a surprise to me.
We got a miles deal on United to Barcelona in early June. I look for them all year long, but I never expect to get a miles deal to Europe in the Summer months.

I am assuming you worked for AA then. Not to disparage AA, but why is it that AA and United don't compete with Delta on service for international flights? It's like night and day the difference in the level of service. Delta has better food, free alcohol (instead of just beer and wine), and just better service in general. Delta is usually the most profitable airline, so I would assume its working for them.
 
We got a miles deal on United to Barcelona in early June. I look for them all year long, but I never expect to get a miles deal to Europe in the Summer months.

I am assuming you worked for AA then. Not to disparage AA, but why is it that AA and United don't compete with Delta on service for international flights? It's like night and day the difference in the level of service. Delta has better food, free alcohol (instead of just beer and wine), and just better service in general. Delta is usually the most profitable airline, so I would assume its working for them.
I worked for America West, the best post deregulation airline. I took early retirement after 9/11 and before AWA took over the horrible USAirways (and kept its name). Delta was smart not to buy the 787, its a POS, and the deliveries are very delayed.
 
Disagree. Our problem is lack of vision and an inability to invest in our future. The population density, particularly in the Northeast US out to Chicago supports high speed rail. Actually, lower density between cities would be lower acquisition and build out costs for the rail lines.

The corridors from Atlanta to Boston; San Diego to San Francisco (and Las Vegas); Eugene to Vancouver; New York to Chicago and St Louis to Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis; and Trans-Ohio, would all make sense for high speed or high speed/high frequency rail. Trains are a far more efficient way to travel 300 miles than auto or planes.

View attachment 67507185
Amtrak doesn't even stop in Phoenix, it stops in Maricopa AZ, 50 miles away.
 
Amtrak doesn't even stop in Phoenix, it stops in Maricopa AZ, 50 miles away.
I think part of the Amtrak plan is to actually stop in Phoenix. That said, the Southwest Chief is a long-distance train. They are fundamentally "see America" tourist trains. They are not practical for transportation. I did take the Zephyr from Denver to Chicago for a meeting a couple of years ago, but I did it largely for the luxury of peace and relaxation. I have used Amtrak quite extensively from New York to Albany ... not high speed (though the train does hit almost 120 over a short stretch), but high frequency (runs pretty much hourly). It is a much easier, faster (at least 40 minutes faster than an auto) and cheaper way to go city center to city center than auto or plane.

I have done a number of other Amtrak routes, long-haul and city to city. I am a big fan. I have also ridden the bullet from Tokyo to Kyoto and then Osaka.... I am even a bigger fan.
 
Last edited:
It's actually going to be forcing United and American to compete on service with Delta. Delta has far fewer delays and cancelations than either United or American, and at the same fare rates.
Moreover, many airlines now make more money on selling miles to cobranded cards than they do on fares.
All else being equal, you would expect Delta to have fewer delays and cancellations than United simply because they have a fewer share of flights to/from cities with such weather. I think American beats them on cancellations. Delta does have good service overall.
 
Nice thought, except it doesn't work that way. No business can simply pass costs along. If they could, businesses would never go bankrupt.
If they don't pass them along, they have a hard time staying in business. The profit margin on airline travel is already meager. If people aren't willing to pay what the flight costs, they will make fewer flights or cut services elsewhere.

Some industries can pass costs along better than others. If the underlying product/service is inelastic to price changes, passing costs along is easy. In contrast, if underlying product/service is price elastic (such as air travel), they can pass along very little. They have to eat some or all of it.
Airline travel is both.

Hidden fees were a way to charge the customer in a way that did not appear in the fare. Raising the fare to compensate for the hidden fee may work to a degree, but will not work in its entirety. If it did, the airlines would never have resorted to hidden fares.

Air travel is one of the most elastic commodities out there. Airlines can not just pass costs along.
You just got done saying they pass costs along, and then say they can't.
 
I think part of the Amtrak plan is to actually stop in Phoenix. That said, the Southwest Chief is a long-distance train. They are fundamentally "see America" tourist trains. They are not practical for transportation. I did take the Zephyr from Denver to Chicago for a meeting a couple of years ago, but I did it largely for the luxury of peace and relaxation. I have used Amtrak quite extensively from New York to Albany ... not high speed (though the train does hit almost 120 over a short stretch), but high frequency (runs pretty much hourly). It is a much easier, faster (at least 40 minutes faster than an auto) and cheaper way to go city center to city center than auto or plane.

I have done a number of other Amtrak routes, long-haul and city to city. I am a big fan. I have also ridden the bullet from Tokyo to Kyoto and then Osaka.... I am even a bigger fan.
We have a beautiful terminal in downtown Phoenix, and one in Tempe and Mesa, but they are all shut down.
 
Fun fact: the newest FAA Reauthorization Act is immediately rolling back this change because we're not allowed to have real consumer protection in America.

It would switch from an automatic refund to an opt-in refund.

Write your congressperson!
 
If they don't pass them along, they have a hard time staying in business. The profit margin on airline travel is already meager. If people aren't willing to pay what the flight costs, they will make fewer flights or cut services elsewhere.

Airline travel is both.


You just got done saying they pass costs along, and then say they can't.
The point is that businesses can not simply pass along costs to customers. It just does not work that way. I know it sounds good, and every time there is some discussion here of cost or tax increases, people rush to post that the company will just pass it along. Companies generally can not "just pass it along" nor can companies not pass any of it along. Its more complicated than that. They certainly try, but then the free market has its say to dictate what actually happens.

Perhaps I did not explain the distinction between airfares and hidden fees. Air travel is one of the most elastic commodities out there (increases in prices often result in few travelers and less revenue). The airline business is thinner operating margin, volume business. Because of the inherent price elasticity, airlines have to be very careful adjusting fares. Air travel is a very, very competitive market, especially since its substantially a commodity. The airlines have struggled to add stickiness to the brand through tangential thinks like mileage programs and affinity credit cards (which actually make a lot more money for them then flying people, but this another discussion)



Thanks to third party booking services such as Travelocity and Priceline, the basic fares are transparent (easy to obtain and compare); the hidden fees, however, are hidden from the decision of what airline to select. So, they bait you by being competitive on the fare, THEN they pick your pocket with additional fees. Airlines used have hidden fees as a gimmick to all them to compete on Travelocity on the base fare, but then added this "extras" to the ticket. The airline came to count on yield from these additional charges.

Removing hidden charges will mean the airline will now have to compete on a substantially 'all included fare' with other airlines. Perhaps before the airline listed Denver to Chicago at $225, but then was able to get an additional $50 on side fees for a $275 yield. They can try baking these fees into the fare, it may work and it may not work, when this exposed to the competitive marketplace. If the airline that was getting 20% of his revenue on hidden fees now lists the Denver to Chicago ticket a $275, that will only work if all of the other airlines are now listing the fee at $275. If other airlines that did not rely as heavily on hidden fees, like Southwest, hold at $225, the hidden fee airline will lose business. They will have lower their fees to something closer to $225.

The result of this will be less revenue yield from hidden fees and more from the core airfares (the unhidden charge that is used on the travel platforms). The airlines will likely get away will moving some of these charges to airfares. It will also likely result in a shift in the burden toward the no frills flier, who avoided many of these charges as a part of his travel plans, and away from the guy that was willing to pay to check bags and select a seat.

The incidence of a tax (or a cost increase) gets carried by all parties, the customer and the company. The actually degree to which the company can pass it along is entirely dependant the elasticity of the product or service. Since airfares are highly elastic, airlines are in a much weaker position to simply pass it along as business that have inelastic products, just as gasoline.

I would love to tell you this is ECO 101, but its not really. They do introduce the concept of price elasticity and incidence of tax in intro eco, but its covered well. It is, however, a big part of in Intermediate Micro, which granted not too many take. All in, however, if businesses could simply pass costs along, no one would ever go out business. Its a myth that a company can just pass costs or tax increases along to the consumer. They generally eat some of it.

BTW.... because the airline industry is price elastic, when things are going well, airlines to make good money. Most of the US airlines are making terrific profits and in no danger of going bankrupt.
 
Last edited:
We have a beautiful terminal in downtown Phoenix, and one in Tempe and Mesa, but they are all shut down.
Have you ever seen what Denver did with its rail terminal. It has two Amtraks trains per day, but they built it into a hub for its rail system. More impressive however, is was re-developed as a community hub. Its often called Denver's Living Room. It has bars, restaurants and a hotel, but is core is just a lobby with sofas and games. They did a really nice job with it.



Hopefully the Phoenix station is re-developed similarly.
 
Fun fact: the newest FAA Reauthorization Act is immediately rolling back this change because we're not allowed to have real consumer protection in America.

It would switch from an automatic refund to an opt-in refund.

Write your congressperson!
Yep. Ted Cruz is on the case.

 
He's trying to offer everything he can to get a vote.
Like fair business regulations? See post #9

This is the kind of thing politicians are elected for. The kind of thing they used to run on before trolling and owning thuh Libs became a substitute for policy.
 
I had not realized that it had gotten bad enough to warrant government action. I stopped flying outside of Alaska after the TSA was created in 2011. I refuse to waive my constitutionally protected right to be protected against unreasonable government searches and seizures. I still fly, but only within Alaska, where the TSA are not involved.
 
The point is that businesses can not simply pass along costs to customers. It just does not work that way.
You are mistaken, it does work that way.

My costs, as an employer, involve labor and overhead. As a business that provides services, if I do not charge the consumer more for my services than what I pay in both labor and overhead, then I do not stay in business for very long. The purpose of business is to make a profit.

I do agree with you about the hidden fees. It pretty much is a gimmick used to ensure that the companies who are booking the flights get paid. They do not need to be hidden. The booking companies can be straight forward about how much they collect with each ticket sold, plus how much of a discount the airline gives them for booking their flights. I don't think anyone ever thought that booking companies were doing it for charity. It isn't that difficult to figure out who pays them, and how they get their money. So they should just be open and up-front about it.
 
Ted Cruz and other republicans oppose the idea that airlines are forced to reimburse customers when flights are cancelled. he thinks that airlines should keep your money when they cancel your flight.

Any guesses which airline made a fat donation to Cancun Cruz?

Just a few days after the Biden administration unveiled new regulations requiring airlines to refund customers in cash for delayed or canceled flights, Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) stepped up and said, "Not so fast." The Texas senator is part of a group of lawmakers introducing new language to make it harder for customers to receive their now-rightful refunds. The addition now requires customers to submit a request in writing or electronically for a refund, installing one more hoop for airline customers to jump through before they can get their money back. Under this legislation, customers cannot simply ask for a cash refund at the airline's front desk when their flight gets delayed or canceled.
The addition comes as lawmakers fine-tune the Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization bill, a sweeping bill covering almost every aspect of Americans' flight experience, from airport security to the ticket purchasing process. Last week, the Biden administration announced new consumer protections enforcing refunds for customers and requiring airlines to disclose so-called "hidden junk fees," which include carry-on bag fees, seat selection fees, and other costs not immediately listed with the price of flight tickets.

 
$600.00 and business class on the next flight. That was much higher than usual but Air Canada was getting desperate because no one was volunteering. Also got a food voucher 😁
On United, they usually ask who doesn’t want to a billy-club to the face. That’s their best offer.
 
Is that a bad thing? Isnt that why we elect our leaders instead of having a King or Dictator?
He’s just mouthing the words like Republicans don’t say things to get votes.

It’s insincere skullduggery.
 
He's trying to offer everything he can to get a vote.
Why would a person running for office not make commitments that are favorable to constituents?

I fail to see the downside here.
 
Back
Top Bottom