After New York attack, Trump calls for ending 'Diversity Visa Lottery Program'

[fmw]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

When a country stops being a magnet for productive and innovative people.. it generally is the start of its decline.

Our decline started a few decades ago but I do agree with your statement. However productive and innovative the people are who immigrate here, their national origin isn't what makes them productive and innovative. The diversity itself is meaningless.

 

[sanman]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Our decline started a few decades ago but I do agree with your statement. However productive and innovative the people are who immigrate here, their national origin isn't what makes them productive and innovative. The diversity itself is meaningless.

Agreed - there's no purpose to be served through this Diversity Lottery- it seems to be designed to benefit the other country and not the United States.

 

[fmw]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Agreed - there's no purpose to be served through this Diversity Lottery- it seems to be designed to benefit the other country and not the United States.

Worse than that. It was designed to appeal to the political base of some politicians.

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Did you read the part about people buying their way into marriages to come here with the visa lottery winner? This program needs to be eliminated. Merit based needs to replace it. It's a travesty. I do not see how anyone can support such a program.

Oh, yes. That and the fact that an individual can apply "2,000" times are obvious holes. But the new wife also gets vetted.

Scrapping a whole program to fix some holes seems drastic. I'm fine with a merit based system. I think the problem would be what constitutes merit. We can declare that we only take the college educated, but the country also needs unskilled immigrant workers. I suppose laborers can continue coming in by other means. Winning the lottery could be an incentive to foreigners to get an education. It would benefit th local government if they don't win, and benefit ours if they do. But these are just details for a later time.

But unless a newer program addresses the holes it seems more political than anything else to make people feel better.

 

[Southern Dad]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Oh, yes. That and the fact that an individual can apply "2,000" times are obvious holes. But the new wife also gets vetted.

Scrapping a whole program to fix some holes seems drastic. I'm fine with a merit based system. I think the problem would be what constitutes merit. We can declare that we only take the college educated, but the country also needs unskilled immigrant workers. I suppose laborers can continue coming in by other means. Winning the lottery could be an incentive to foreigners to get an education. It would benefit th local government if they don't win, and benefit ours if they do. But these are just details for a later time.

But unless a newer program addresses the holes it seems more political than anything else to make people feel better.

We need unskilled immigrant workers? Hell, we have a southern border that is wide open for that. We don't need them from hot beds of terrorism countries.

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

You misunderstand me. I'm a big fan of immigration. I understand the benefits of immigration. My issue is with diversity and government involvement in it. We gain from effective people who immigrate here. It doesn't matter their national origin. It is the diversity that doesn't matter, not the immigration.

In terms of national security, government should be involved, right? Are you talking about select immigration? We have officially been doing that since after World War I.

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

We need unskilled immigrant workers? Hell, we have a southern border that is wide open for that. We don't need them from hot beds of terrorism countries.

How is Uzbek a hot bed for terrorism? It's hardly Syria or Iraq. Again, the guy came here eight years ago. He decided to become a terrorist while living here. And after a year's worth of planning, all he could come up with was to drive a car into a crowd? If only the Vegas shooter were Muslim, right? People would care more about doing something. Some American jackass just shot three people in a Walmart here in Denver. Then he walked out. Were he Muslim, people would care.

 

[upsideguy]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

The Trump administration didn't devise a list--the Obama administration did. Trump just appropriated Obama's list to use for a temporary travel ban trying to keep out as many terrorists as reasonably possible. His temporary travel ban had no effect on those who had already been admitted to the country.

And the New York City recent incident was no random act of violence. It was carefully calculated, planned, and most likely abetted as most of these are.

...and nothing that Trump administration proposes addresses the issue at hand. Typical of Trump, he has no clue how to actual solve problems, but he is the master of the cosmetic, as good snake oil salesmen are.

Not lost in this is the fact that Trump and his Republican cohorts are more than happy to come up with legislation and EO's to address terrorism (even when the action fails to actually address the problem and often makes it worse), but will do nothing to defend against mass shootings.

You are still far, far more likely to die in a school, mall, concert, movie theatre, etc, at the hands of an American born mass killer than a terrorist. One is a real problem; the other an overrated one.

 

[fmw]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

In terms of national security, government should be involved, right? Are you talking about select immigration? We have officially been doing that since after World War I.

Diversity has nothing to do with national security. Immigration does.

 

[Athanasius68]

You are still far, far more likely to die in a school, mall, concert, movie theatre, etc, at the hands of an American born mass killer than a terrorist. One is a real problem; the other an overrated one.

Well, with the American born mass killer options are by definition limited-- cant kick the person out.

But with some foreigner: stop importing the problem-- or at the very least recognize the problem and do not treat people from the problem regions of the world the same as from the non- problem areas.

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

How is Uzbek a hot bed for terrorism? It's hardly Syria or Iraq. Again, the guy came here eight years ago. He decided to become a terrorist while living here. And after a year's worth of planning, all he could come up with was to drive a car into a crowd? If only the Vegas shooter were Muslim, right? People would care more about doing something. Some American jackass just shot three people in a Walmart here in Denver. Then he walked out. Were he Muslim, people would care.

errr...
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...an-terrorism-new-york-sayfullo-saipov/544649/

 

[Ahlevah]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

hehe...funny part is, the majority of those countries you have listed are American allies, dragged into this mess because of that. Europe gets hit harder because it's easier to get to, and it's interesting you bring up the terrorism experienced in Islamic countries, where it would have not nearly as much to do with "foreign" policy.

I forgot to mention Russia, which is hardly an ally. It's natural to list countries in the Middle East and Africa as victims of Islamist terror, because that's where most of the Islamists are, hence that's where most Islamist terror is occurring. Duh! They don't discriminate when it comes to nationality. If you don't accept their brand of Islam and think like they do, you're a heretic. That's it. That's the source of their principal beef with Western culture and influence, with the United States seen as its guidon bearer and largest purveyor. They strike us because we challenge their status quo. They like their women pregnant, barefoot, uneducated, and hidden; they think gays are "the people of Lot"; Western music and culture are an abomination; there is no rule of law other than the law of Allah and the prophets; no need for separation of powers or separation of church and state, because the church IS the state; etc.

But despite that, I agree with you on a lot of what you've said here, you guys should stop going into these places and getting involved. The problem is that bomb making is very lucrative, so long as you guys never stop fighting, while at the same time there is no better recruiting tool than American bombs, so I guess you're kind of stuck until something changes. But I don't think that should be taken out on the majority of folks from these regions who are not interested in terrorism at all, except maybe to escape from it.

I'm generally against exercises in nation building. We've done it successfully at times, such as in Western Europe after WWII and in Japan, but that was only after we completely obliterated them and started with a clean slate. In the case of the Japanese, they tended to obey their emperor, and he told them to cooperate with us. On the other hand, it took us almost two decades to completely pacify the Philippines, and that at a time when we didn't normally play nice (The "Massacre" and the Aftermath - US History Scene). But I think Trump is spot on in his call to reform our immigration laws by making them work for us and Western society and values and not against them, and we certainly don't need to be importing potential terrorists.

Also, while I'm skeptical of our nation-building attempts in the Muslim world, I don't think we should completely surrender and be apathetic when it comes to confronting these Islamist movements. We need to forcefully counter them every way we can.

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

...and nothing that Trump administration proposes addresses the issue at hand. Typical of Trump, he has no clue how to actual solve problems, but he is the master of the cosmetic, as good snake oil salesmen are.

Not lost in this is the fact that Trump and his Republican cohorts are more than happy to come up with legislation and EO's to address terrorism (even when the action fails to actually address the problem and often makes it worse), but will do nothing to defend against mass shootings.

You are still far, far more likely to die in a school, mall, concert, movie theatre, etc, at the hands of an American born mass killer than a terrorist. One is a real problem; the other an overrated one.

:lol:
This is such a non-argument...

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

errr...
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...an-terrorism-new-york-sayfullo-saipov/544649/

Oh. Yikes. Good article.

But this guy left Uzbekistan eight years ago. He certainly took his time to do this, which leads me to believe that he is just another wannabe with nothing to live for. He may as well have walked into a Walmart, capped a few people, and walked out. The fact that IS is so desperate to claim such senseless conduct should tell us about how desperate they are to be relevant in the world. It's got nothing to do with "God" or defending that religion. He's an idiot, claimed by idiots, who represent the very extreme nature of a Wahhabi from the eighteenth century.

This brings me to a question...instead of just bumming off of Obama's list of countries to pretend he is "making us safe," why wasn't Uzbekistan on Trump's list?

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Diversity has nothing to do with national security. Immigration does.

You've gone back to being allusive. If we take immigrants from everywhere, that is diversity. So again, and back where we left off, are you referring to select immigration? Or is your problem merely about the naming convention of the program?

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Oh. Yikes. Good article.

But this guy left Uzbekistan eight years ago. He certainly took his time to do this, which leads me to believe that he is just another wannabe with nothing to live for. He may as well have walked into a Walmart, capped a few people, and walked out. The fact that IS is so desperate to claim such senseless conduct should tell us about how desperate they are to be relevant in the world. It's got nothing to do with "God" or defending that religion. He's an idiot, claimed by idiots, who represent the very extreme nature of a Wahhabi from the eighteenth century.

He could be a wannabe. In fact its very possible you have this moron pegged just right.
Came here, failed, got angry. But we don't know yet so...
Its also very possible that he came here with the intent to do something like this.
The point is, we have enough of our own idiots. We don't need to be importing more from countries we know are not terribly friendly.
That could be classified as a "dumb" thing to do.

This brings me to a question...instead of just bumming off of Obama's list of countries to pretend he is "making us safe," why wasn't Uzbekistan on Trump's list?

That one IS a good question.
Look...Trump's not the sharpest tack in the box. That much is pretty gawd-damn obvious.
As obvious as the simple rule that you don't let people from an enemy camp, in your camp.

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

He could be a wannabe. In fact its very possible you have this moron pegged just right.
Came here, failed, got angry. But we don't know yet so...

Of course we do. After seven years in the country, he begins planning for an attack, and running some people over is all he could manage? He was not a part of any agenda.

As obvious as the simple rule that you don't let people from an enemy camp, in your camp.

Yes, but like I told another here, eight years ago he passed the vetting process. There was nothing there, thus, he was not in the enemy's camp. This was a recent transition that occurred entirely in his own head while living in this country. The only way to keep this from happening is to completely cease all immigration. Then we could go on ignoring the American terrorists who enter preschools, theaters, and casino hotels.

This program accounts for 5% of the immigrants that come in every year. Worrying about this program as a threat is senseless. No terrorist organization will ever make a plan to attack the U.S. that involves the luck of the lottery. I can see the headline now..."Sixty-Seven Year-Old Al-Qaeda Cell Kills Twenty Americans In New York After Waiting Forty-Years To Win The Lottery."

 

[MrShangles]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Son, try to embrace your big boy feelings. I have been in close proximity of actual terrorists (not what you think is a terrorist). I have handled combatant prisoners whose role was to sow terrorism. I have personally killed terrorists. Who are you?

Your "one day maybe a family member will die" doesn't have the impact you think it does. Instead of knee jerking like a moron, I choose to understand the problem. The best thing any troop can do if he ever gets an extremist in his sights is to pull the trigger. Making prisoners out of them only serves to create martyrs and it is a political hassle for us. So, no, I do not suggest that we bring the "terrorist" to the United States and set them up in a home next to you so that we can teach him how to garden. Instead of knee jerking and drowning in emotional ignorance, contribute.

Perhaps your emotional tirade helped you miss the part where eight years ago, when this guy won the lottery, he was not a terrorist. But by all means, swim within the shallow, ignore what is really going on, and inadvertently encourage a never-ending problem.

Did you even read what I said? I definitely do not want any of them here.
I’m not drowning in emotion, I say block the borders, stop letting anyone in that isn’t American, we don’t owe anyone anything.
And before you project your self as the one with supreme knowledge, stop assuming you know me with you’re knee jerk emotional rant[emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

I’m not drowning in emotion, I say block the borders, stop letting anyone in that isn’t American, we don’t owe anyone anything.

Well, as I stated earlier...

According to the 2012 National Center for Farmworker Health fact sheet, 72% of all farm workers were foreign born. Sixty-eight percent of these farm workers were born in Mexico.

Now, one of the ignorant arguments made against immigration is that "they are taking our jobs." Well, despite pay raises and labor benefits over the last few years, native-born Americans continue to refuse to take jobs in the fields.

Jeff Marchini and others in the Central Valley here bet their farms on the election of Donald J. Trump. His message of reducing regulations and taxes appealed to this Republican stronghold, one of Mr. Trump’s strongest bases of support in the state.

As for his promises about cracking down on illegal immigrants, many assumed Mr. Trump’s pledges were mostly just talk. But two weeks into his administration, Mr. Trump has signed executive orders that have upended the country’s immigration laws. Now farmers here are deeply alarmed about what the new policies could mean for their workers, most of whom are unauthorized, and the businesses that depend on them.

So, sure. Let's just block all borders and only surround ourselves with Americans. Which farm are you going to work on? See what I mean? Emotional knee-jerking.

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Of course we do. After seven years in the country, he begins planning for an attack, and running some people over is all he could manage? He was not a part of any agenda.

No. You're assuming now. Try to wait for the law to find out the facts...

Yes, but like I told another here, eight years ago he passed the vetting process. There was nothing there, thus, he was not in the enemy's camp. This was a recent transition that occurred entirely in his own head while living in this country. The only way to keep this from happening is to completely cease all immigration. Then we could go on ignoring the American terrorists who enter preschools, theaters, and casino hotels.

This program accounts for 5% of the immigrants that come in every year. Worrying about this program as a threat is senseless. No terrorist organization will ever make a plan to attack the U.S. that involves the luck of the lottery. I can see the headline now..."Sixty-Seven Year-Old Al-Qaeda Cell Kills Twenty Americans In New York After Waiting Forty-Years To Win The Lottery."

OK then...let's play "assumptions".
Let's "assume" this devout Uzbeky Muslim wins this lottery and comes to America with his family.
That after a few years, is so disgusted with American society, that he rams a truck down a bike path in NYC to kill Americans.
I think its safe to "assume" that:
A. This lottery was a bad idea
B. Devout Uzbeky Muslims are not compatible with American society and should no longer be admitted...under any circumstances.

 

[OlNate]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

I forgot to mention Russia, which is hardly an ally. It's natural to list countries in the Middle East and Africa as victims of Islamist terror, because that's where most of the Islamists are, hence that's where most Islamist terror is occurring. Duh! They don't discriminate when it comes to nationality. If you don't accept their brand of Islam and think like they do, you're a heretic. That's it. That's the source of their principal beef with Western culture and influence, with the United States seen as its guidon bearer and largest purveyor. They strike us because we challenge their status quo. They like their women pregnant, barefoot, uneducated, and hidden; they think gays are "the people of Lot"; Western music and culture are an abomination; there is no rule of law other than the law of Allah and the prophets; no need for separation of powers or separation of church and state, because the church IS the state; etc.



I'm generally against exercises in nation building. We've done it successfully at times, such as in Western Europe after WWII and in Japan, but that was only after we completely obliterated them and started with a clean slate. In the case of the Japanese, they tended to obey their emperor, and he told them to cooperate with us. On the other hand, it took us almost two decades to completely pacify the Philippines, and that at a time when we didn't normally play nice (The "Massacre" and the Aftermath - US History Scene). But I think Trump is spot on in his call to reform our immigration laws by making them work for us and Western society and values and not against them, and we certainly don't need to be importing potential terrorists.

Also, while I'm skeptical of our nation-building attempts in the Muslim world, I don't think we should completely surrender and be apathetic when it comes to confronting these Islamist movements. We need to forcefully counter them every way we can.

Hehe...well, Russia's foreign policy has been about as subtle as America's over the years, so that's not a surprise. I don't know how history hasn't taught folks not to mess with Afghanistan...hehe...

Before going much further, can I ask a bit about your personal knowledge about how the Muslim world thinks? This is not a dig or a trap, I'm just trying to understand how you've come to your conclusions about things, whether it's from spending time over there, or if this is from reading or something... I disagree with your analysis, I think it has a lot more to do with constant Western (including Europe) interference in the region for, well, basically forever, but especially over the last century and a half...but maybe you have a different perspective, and if so, I'd be open to considering it.

I don't think the prospect of America leaving the Middle East should be looked at as "surrender"...since I'm not sure you guys should have ever been there in the first place, and I'm not sure why you feel that it is America's job to tell other countries how to be. If America cares so much about the people living in conditions that run contrary to America's cultural and value systems, you shouldn't try to recreate other countries in your image, you should allow people who want to live within your cultural and value system to move to America. Given that the terrorists haven't actually asked for anything (that I know of), it would seem that it is more of a response than anything else... Perhaps if you stop giving them things to respond to, maybe you'll all be a little (and I mean, a very little, given the terrorist kill count) bit safer?

 

[MSgt]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

No. You're assuming now. Try to wait for the law to find out the facts...

Oh, of course I'm assuming. But we can see the obvious even without years of research and study.

- Him being an IS plant for seven years so he can run some people over is nonsensical. I mean, make a bomb or find a gun.

- Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and IS all have a strong history of claiming anything and everything that happens inside and outside their region (even as another claims it). This guy admitted already that he got his inspiration from the IS website. IS turns around and claims the attack. Were this something that was seven years in the making, IS would announce that with pride because it goes to legitimacy and relevancy.

My assumption isn't based on nothing.

OK then...let's play "assumptions".
Let's "assume" this devout Uzbeky Muslim wins this lottery and comes to America with his family.
That after a few years, is so disgusted with American society, that he rams a truck down a bike path in NYC to kill Americans.
I think its safe to "assume" that:
A. This lottery was a bad idea
B. Devout Uzbeky Muslims are not compatible with American society and should no longer be admitted...under any circumstances.

Well, first your assumption agrees that he did not come to the U.S. as an IS disciple, thus there was nothing that vetting could catch. Second, the lottery being a bad idea is after the fact and it would have only been a bad idea for this individual, who passed the vetting process. So let's just block Uzbekistan.

France is full of devout Muslims and their ghettos are great recruitment locales for Islamist extremists. It's only a matter of time before one flies on into the U.S. to do his thing. It would be very difficult to discern, even with vetting, the more devout from the less devout; and even then, you would have to discern the difference between the more devout from the actual Islamists; and then you would have to discern the difference between an Islamist and an extremist (terrorist to be). So let's just block France. And so on.

The only practical way to give Americans their false sense of security is to block any and all Muslims everywhere. Even making air travel an absolute pain in the butt after 9/11 did little...

According to the United States Government Accountability Office report to congressional requesters in April 2017...
While the September 11, 2001, attacks were perpetrated by foreign violent extremists, from September 12, 2001 through December 31, 2016, attacks by domestic or “homegrown” violent extremists in the United States resulted in 225 fatalities, according to the ECDB. Of these,

- 106 were killed by far right violent extremists in 62 separate incidents
- 119 were victims of radical Islamist violent extremists in 23 separate incidents.

So now, we would have to kick them all out too. But if even Trump wouldn't do that, we are stuck playing these games of security that really do little to stop the problem. This program is a distraction and merely more of the same political exploitation we have seen time and again this year.

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

Hehe...well, Russia's foreign policy has been about as subtle as America's over the years, so that's not a surprise. I don't know how history hasn't taught folks not to mess with Afghanistan...hehe...

Before going much further, can I ask a bit about your personal knowledge about how the Muslim world thinks? This is not a dig or a trap, I'm just trying to understand how you've come to your conclusions about things, whether it's from spending time over there, or if this is from reading or something... I disagree with your analysis, I think it has a lot more to do with constant Western (including Europe) interference in the region for, well, basically forever, but especially over the last century and a half...but maybe you have a different perspective, and if so, I'd be open to considering it.

I don't think the prospect of America leaving the Middle East should be looked at as "surrender"...since I'm not sure you guys should have ever been there in the first place, and I'm not sure why you feel that it is America's job to tell other countries how to be. If America cares so much about the people living in conditions that run contrary to America's cultural and value systems, you shouldn't try to recreate other countries in your image, you should allow people who want to live within your cultural and value system to move to America. Given that the terrorists haven't actually asked for anything (that I know of), it would seem that it is more of a response than anything else... Perhaps if you stop giving them things to respond to, maybe you'll all be a little (and I mean, a very little, given the terrorist kill count) bit safer?

That's one Canuck opinion.
Here's another.
I think NATO with Russian military support, should sweep Europe clean and then blockade the entirety of the Arabian Peninsula.
I also think all refugee programs and migration from the Muslim world, should be immediately halted.

But that's just me...

 

[OlNate]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

That's one Canuck opinion.
Here's another.
I think NATO with Russian military support, should sweep Europe clean and then blockade the entirety of the Arabian Peninsula.
I also think all refugee programs and migration from the Muslim world, should be immediately halted.

But that's just me...

*sigh*...



And for Buzz62.

Good grief.

 

[Buzz62]

Re: The Visa Lottery Program - Post Latest NYC Terrorist Attack

*sigh*...

View attachment 67224568

And for Buzz62.

Good grief.

:lol:

Ya...I have family here, and in Europe.
I want a decisive action that brings this global Islamist issue to an end.
I think that when a group of people actually declare war on you, that you would be wise to take it seriously.
And you would be unwise to invite such people into your nation...unless they wanna act as agents for your nation...in the war they're leaders declared.

I'm "funny" that way...