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After 17 years, many Afghans blame US for unending war

TU Curmudgeon

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From Associated Press

After 17 years, many Afghans blame US for unending war

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — When U.S. forces and their Afghan allies rode into Kabul in November 2001 they were greeted as liberators. But after 17 years of war, the Taliban have retaken half the country, security is worse than it’s ever been, and many Afghans place the blame squarely on the Americans.

The United States has lost more than 2,400 soldiers in its longest war, and has spent more than $900 billion on everything from military operations to the construction of roads, bridges and power plants. Three U.S. presidents have pledged to bring peace to Afghanistan, either by adding or withdrawing troops, by engaging the Taliban or shunning them. Last year, the U.S. dropped the “mother of all bombs” on a cave complex.

None of it has worked. After years of frustration, Afghanistan is rife with conspiracy theories, including the idea that Americans didn’t stumble into a forever war, but planned one all along.

Mohammed Ismail Qasimyar, a member of Afghanistan’s High Peace Council, wonders how U.S. and NATO forces — which at their peak numbered 150,000 and fought alongside hundreds of thousands of Afghan troops, were unable to vanquish tens of thousands of Taliban.

“Either they did not want to or they could not do it,” he said. He now suspects the U.S. and its ally Pakistan deliberately sowed chaos in Afghanistan to justify the lingering presence of foreign forces — now numbering around 15,000 — in order to use the country as a listening post to monitor Iran, Russia and China.

COMMENT:-

Such ingratitude!!! Don't those people realize that America liberated them? Not only that, but they aren't paying their own share of the cost of defending themselves!!! Why, if it hadn't been for the fact that the US drove the invaders out of Afghanistan the Afghans would all be speaking Dari and Pashto instead of their native language - Afghanistanish.

On the other hand, isn't it nice to see that there are "Conspiracy Theory Nuts" in other countries too.
 

OrphanSlug

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And we are all surprised... why?
 

ecofarm

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As if things were better under the Taliban, without education and 70 women in elected office.
 

jonny5

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From Associated Press

After 17 years, many Afghans blame US for unending war

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — When U.S. forces and their Afghan allies rode into Kabul in November 2001 they were greeted as liberators. But after 17 years of war, the Taliban have retaken half the country, security is worse than it’s ever been, and many Afghans place the blame squarely on the Americans.

The United States has lost more than 2,400 soldiers in its longest war, and has spent more than $900 billion on everything from military operations to the construction of roads, bridges and power plants. Three U.S. presidents have pledged to bring peace to Afghanistan, either by adding or withdrawing troops, by engaging the Taliban or shunning them. Last year, the U.S. dropped the “mother of all bombs” on a cave complex.

None of it has worked. After years of frustration, Afghanistan is rife with conspiracy theories, including the idea that Americans didn’t stumble into a forever war, but planned one all along.

Mohammed Ismail Qasimyar, a member of Afghanistan’s High Peace Council, wonders how U.S. and NATO forces — which at their peak numbered 150,000 and fought alongside hundreds of thousands of Afghan troops, were unable to vanquish tens of thousands of Taliban.

“Either they did not want to or they could not do it,” he said. He now suspects the U.S. and its ally Pakistan deliberately sowed chaos in Afghanistan to justify the lingering presence of foreign forces — now numbering around 15,000 — in order to use the country as a listening post to monitor Iran, Russia and China.

COMMENT:-

Such ingratitude!!! Don't those people realize that America liberated them? Not only that, but they aren't paying their own share of the cost of defending themselves!!! Why, if it hadn't been for the fact that the US drove the invaders out of Afghanistan the Afghans would all be speaking Dari and Pashto instead of their native language - Afghanistanish.

On the other hand, isn't it nice to see that there are "Conspiracy Theory Nuts" in other countries too.

WHats your point? All i see is sarcasm. If youre going to post Breaking News, be serious.
 

Rexedgar

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If we had consulted history............

“Afghanistan is a mountainous landlocked country in Central Asia and South Asia.[1][2] The Afghanistan area has been invaded many times in recorded history, but no invader has been able to control all of its regions at the same time,[citation needed] and at some point faced rebellion.[citation needed] Some of the invaders in the history of Afghanistan include the Maurya Empire of ancient India, Alexander the Great of Macedon, Umar, an Arab Caliphate, Genghis Khan of Mongolia, Timur of Persia and Central Asia, the Mughal Empire of India, various Persian Empires, the British Empire, the Sikh Empire, the Soviet Union, and most recently a coalition force of NATO troops, the majority from the United States, which entered the country in the first-ever invocation of NATO's Article 5 "an attack on one is an attack on all" following the September 11 attacks in the United States.

From Wikipedia
 

TU Curmudgeon

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As if things were better under the Taliban, without education and 70 women in elected office.

"Better" in a tribal society doesn't mean exactly the same thing that it means in the US.

"Better" in many societies simply means "There are fewer people taking what is mine and who will kill me if I resist.".

BTW, 80 out of 249 is ~32.13% while 84 out of 435 is ~19.31%.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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WHats your point? All i see is sarcasm. If youre going to post Breaking News, be serious.

Well, I rather suspect that the fact that a significant percentage of the Afghan population blames the United States of America for the conditions in Afghanistan is rather "breaking news" to a lot of people.

Those would be the people who think that "Such ingratitude!!! Don't those people realize that America liberated them? Not only that, but they aren't paying their own share of the cost of defending themselves!!! Why, if it hadn't been for the fact that the US drove the invaders out of Afghanistan the Afghans would all be speaking Dari and Pashto instead of their native language - Afghanistanish." is NOT both ignorant and sarcastic (both deliberate).
 

TU Curmudgeon

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If we had consulted history............

“Afghanistan is a mountainous landlocked country in Central Asia and South Asia.[1][2] The Afghanistan area has been invaded many times in recorded history, but no invader has been able to control all of its regions at the same time,[citation needed] and at some point faced rebellion.[citation needed] Some of the invaders in the history of Afghanistan include the Maurya Empire of ancient India, Alexander the Great of Macedon, Umar, an Arab Caliphate, Genghis Khan of Mongolia, Timur of Persia and Central Asia, the Mughal Empire of India, various Persian Empires, the British Empire, the Sikh Empire, the Soviet Union, and most recently a coalition force of NATO troops, the majority from the United States, which entered the country in the first-ever invocation of NATO's Article 5 "an attack on one is an attack on all" following the September 11 attacks in the United States.

From Wikipedia

The "traditional" (and only "successful") method of dealing with the Afghans (by people who aren't Afghans themselves) is to march through the countryside trashing everything is sight while (figuratively) posting large signs that say "Your actions have ticked us off. If they resume we'll come back and do this all over again, and again, and again until they stop.".

This generally brings "peace" to the areas bordering Afghanistan for the better part of a generation.

After that "Lather, Rinse, Repeat".
 

The Mark

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jonny5

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Well, I rather suspect that the fact that a significant percentage of the Afghan population blames the United States of America for the conditions in Afghanistan is rather "breaking news" to a lot of people.

Those would be the people who think that "Such ingratitude!!! Don't those people realize that America liberated them? Not only that, but they aren't paying their own share of the cost of defending themselves!!! Why, if it hadn't been for the fact that the US drove the invaders out of Afghanistan the Afghans would all be speaking Dari and Pashto instead of their native language - Afghanistanish." is NOT both ignorant and sarcastic (both deliberate).

More jokes. Moving on.
 

ecofarm

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"Better" in a tribal society doesn't mean exactly the same thing that it means in the US.

"Better" in many societies simply means "There are fewer people taking what is mine and who will kill me if I resist.".

BTW, 80 out of 249 is ~32.13% while 84 out of 435 is ~19.31%.


70 women elected to provincial offices. Without help, they're still slaves.
 

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WAY To many moving parts on this.... As well as BASIC conflicts. Due to Religion and political beliefs.


With that Afghanistan I am NOT super versed in the TOTAL break down. But here are some assumptions and opinions.

while I was deployed in Iraq... there was MUCH of the same sentiment there. Iraqis didnt really want us there after the dictator was removed.

Issues

1) We were NOT fighting Iraqis in Iraq.... It was Chechens.... Egyptians... Jordanians... Anyone that JUST hated America was fighting in the HOST country....(that being Iraq) So Within Afghanistan, While we are likely fighting extremist groups, Taliban, Al Queda and other groups, the everyday Afghanis probably not so much if at all. They just want to live their lives.

2) Ruling class is based on Religion not on Democracy. Iraq, had 3 ruling religions, Shiite, Kurds, Sunnis..... the Control of power had NOTHING to do with Western Democracy and expecting to force that down their throats is a pipe dream.... Anastasia is NO different ruled by the Taliban for years, Sharia Law being the governing power.... To expect them to clear it out and adopt western democracy.... Is a little laughable.

3) We are STILL There, with no exit strategy. We are trying to make move an unmovable target. Our target should have always been to remove the direct thread, ONCE Saddam was caught, GTFO let them rebuild and see what happens. Bin Laden caught, GTFO and let them be them. We are a 300 year old country that doesnt have their stuff together expecting to force democracy on a countries that have been around for 2000+ years since the Mesopotamian days. And we are richous? No wonder these people are pissed and see us as "Infidels"

Its the Superman Complex.....


We need to find an objective. Do it.... and get out... nope.... trying to "win the hearts and minds" of people that dont understand or agree with western democracy.....

So surprising? Nope......
 

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If Afghanistan is ungovernable in its current state maybe it should be divided into countries

Or maybe we should stop trying force our way of life on these people. At some point we must come to the realization that when you try to enforce your values on a group of people there is going to be backlash, and in many cases violence. This applies both domestically and in our foreign policy.
 

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From Associated Press

After 17 years, many Afghans blame US for unending war

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — When U.S. forces and their Afghan allies rode into Kabul in November 2001 they were greeted as liberators. But after 17 years of war, the Taliban have retaken half the country, security is worse than it’s ever been, and many Afghans place the blame squarely on the Americans.

The United States has lost more than 2,400 soldiers in its longest war, and has spent more than $900 billion on everything from military operations to the construction of roads, bridges and power plants. Three U.S. presidents have pledged to bring peace to Afghanistan, either by adding or withdrawing troops, by engaging the Taliban or shunning them. Last year, the U.S. dropped the “mother of all bombs” on a cave complex.

None of it has worked. After years of frustration, Afghanistan is rife with conspiracy theories, including the idea that Americans didn’t stumble into a forever war, but planned one all along.

Mohammed Ismail Qasimyar, a member of Afghanistan’s High Peace Council, wonders how U.S. and NATO forces — which at their peak numbered 150,000 and fought alongside hundreds of thousands of Afghan troops, were unable to vanquish tens of thousands of Taliban.

“Either they did not want to or they could not do it,” he said. He now suspects the U.S. and its ally Pakistan deliberately sowed chaos in Afghanistan to justify the lingering presence of foreign forces — now numbering around 15,000 — in order to use the country as a listening post to monitor Iran, Russia and China.

COMMENT:-

Such ingratitude!!! Don't those people realize that America liberated them? Not only that, but they aren't paying their own share of the cost of defending themselves!!! Why, if it hadn't been for the fact that the US drove the invaders out of Afghanistan the Afghans would all be speaking Dari and Pashto instead of their native language - Afghanistanish.

On the other hand, isn't it nice to see that there are "Conspiracy Theory Nuts" in other countries too.

Sure... those guys have been fighting continuously for two thousands years but they blame us... :lol:

YEAH! Blame the USA.

USA SUX!


**** those guys...
 

TU Curmudgeon

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I don't know that they're completely wrong.

The Taliban offered to surrender bin Laden to us back at the start, but we didn't accept for various reasons, some good and some bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/15/...t-rejects-offer-taliban-for-negotiations.html


I expect they did so in part to retain power.

One of the "unacceptable conditions" that the Taliban requested was that the US government ask that Osama bin Laden be extradited to the US, and that it meet the usual (incredibly low) standard of proof required to justify the Afghan government agreeing to that request (which the Taliban was prepared to do even though the US and Afghanistan had no treaty of extradition in place).

The US government found that condition to be unacceptable for two reasons:

  1. the US government would have had to recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan (which, for ideological reasons, it was not willing to do); and
  2. the US government would have actually had to produce some actual evidence in support of its claim that Osama bin Laden was responsible for the WTC/Pentagon mass murders (which, at that point in time, it did not have).

Please note, the US government DID (shortly thereafter) obtain sufficient evidence that Osama bin Laden was responsible for the WTC/Pentagon mass murders but did NOT renew its request that the Taliban extradite Osama bin Laden to the US for trial.

That would lead me to believe that the overriding factor in the US not being able to obtain possession of Osama bin Laden for trial was the fact that the US government would have had to recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan (which, for ideological reasons, it was not willing to do).

That, unfortunately, leads one to consider, seriously, the possibility that over 2,375 Americans have died (and over 20,300 Americans have been wounded) because someone in Washington was having a snit-fit over recognizing that the Taliban was the government of Afghanistan.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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If Afghanistan is ungovernable in its current state maybe it should be divided into countries

It's not that Afghanistan is "ungovernable", it's just that it isn't "governable" by non-Afghans through non-Afghan structures built upon non-Afghan cultures and thought.

To put that into perspective, the US would be "ungovernable" if the government was (essentially) "stooges" selected by the Russians who were attempting to govern through "Russian style" structures that were built upon "Russian style" culture and thought.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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Sure... those guys have been fighting continuously for two thousands years but they blame us... :lol:

YEAH! Blame the USA.

USA SUX!


**** those guys...

In Afghanistan it is always "The Outsiders" that are the root cause of the problem.

Of course, in Afghanistan, the term "The Outsiders" can also mean "anyone who isn't directly related to me and/or who comes from a place more than 30 miles away".
 
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