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Actually Mr. President, we should get rid of the minimum wage

So, just like with the federal spending, Obama will bump it by 20% and then incrementally add to it based on "inflation" or "population growth" or any other thing that is sure to rise. Again, using different "index" values to measure "inflation" is simply a clever trick to make private "living" expenses rise faster than gov't "living" expenses.
Try again once you've figured out what it is that you actually want to say and how to express that coherently. Indexing the minimum wage takes it out of the political hands of Congress and allows it to increase annually so that people on the other end don't become victims of it as they were for so long under Republicans.
 
Try again once you've figured out what it is that you actually want to say and how to express that coherently. Indexing the minimum wage takes it out of the political hands of Congress and allows it to increase annually so that people on the other end don't become victims of it as they were for so long under Republicans.

I wish I got a raise every time some company decided to raise their prices. I asked my boss if we could do this and after he stopped laughing he said "Only an idiot would think that is a good idea".
 
Cardinal Fang "the minimum wage keeps people off of welfare".
As I've said if this is true, let's end poverty, just make the minimum wage $35.00/hr. Challenge eliminated.
That's about the fifth such suggestion, and all of them have been dumber than can be taken seriously. This is likely why you've had so few responses.
 
I wish I got a raise every time some company decided to raise their prices. I asked my boss if we could do this and after he stopped laughing he said "Only an idiot would think that is a good idea".
So in your world, prices are all fixed and there is no company that has or even could have raised any of them. Kind of makes you wonder how the cost of apparel could have gone up by 2.1% over the past year or medical care by 3.1%. No doubt you have some handy explanation for that.
 
Try again once you've figured out what it is that you actually want to say and how to express that coherently. Indexing the minimum wage takes it out of the political hands of Congress and allows it to increase annually so that people on the other end don't become victims of it as they were for so long under Republicans.

Fine then simply do that indexing, the 20% immediate bump, when unemployemnt is already high, is not needed at all.
 
Fine then simply do that indexing, the 20% immediate bump, when unemployemnt is already high, is not needed at all.

No indexing is necessary because we don't need the minimum wage at all.
 
No indexing is necessary because we don't need the minimum wage at all.

We do if we want to prevent folks from working and remaining gov't dependent, thus more apt to vote "corrrectly". ;)
 
Cardinal Fang "the minimum wage keeps people off of welfare".

As I've said if this is true, let's end poverty, just make the minimum wage $35.00/hr. Challenge eliminated.

Forget it it Dan. The only response you'll ever get from liberal is ' we already answered that" . Wehn of course they've done no such things.

The answer is pretty simple though. Min. wage legislation is feel good nonsenses, designed to suck up to the low information voter.
Even discredited gadfly admitted that raising the min wage to $ 20.00 would be crazy as it would increase unemployment. Huh? So he admits to the basic law of of demand ( that states that when the price of anything (including labor) increases, the quantity demanded will decrease) but somehow imagines some threshhold where the law magically disappears. That's why they don't dare propose large increases. Even they know it's dumb.
 
So in your world, prices are all fixed and there is no company that has or even could have raised any of them. Kind of makes you wonder how the cost of apparel could have gone up by 2.1% over the past year or medical care by 3.1%. No doubt you have some handy explanation for that.

In my world my wages are set by how well my company is doing not by how much gas or milk prices rise.

It must be nice to get a raise simply because the cost of clothes went up.
 
In Binary-Land. Over in the real world, nobody is making something out of nothing, and the prices of all sorts of factor inputs are apt to be changing every day. Low-wage labor is just one such factor. While it may be special in a sense by being human in most cases, that is not nearly enough to alter its economic nature. It has no magical connection to profits that every other factor does not have as well. The job of a business person is to manage a business in the face of just such an inconstant and unpredictable environment. Those who require certainty in such things would simply be in the wrong profession.

I'm an accountant, at the end of a month the numbers are what they are. I guess to you, reality is binary-land.
 
And what percent of teenagers would you similarly guess to be the sole source of income in their households?
A very small percentage.

The numbers were cited to illustrate the death of the old fantasy that the minimum wage applies only to teenagers and college kids working for beer money. Might have been true once. It's not anymore.
I've never heard anyone claim it ONLY applies to that group. The relevant question is to what degree individuals or families rely on minimum wage as primary source of income. The answer is an extremely small number. Add on that most min wage workers are part time workers, and the min wage is not a significant issue as far as making ends meet as there are very few people making min wage in that situation.


The minimum wage for tip-earners has been stuck at $2.13 an hour for decades. Employers do have to make up the difference though if that plus actual tips per hour falls short of the minimum wage.
Yes, I'm familiar with the law. My point was that a person classified as "at or below Federal minimum wage" is classified by wages. A tip-earner (and they are a significant portion of at or below min wage) is most likely making more than minimum wage once tips are figured in.


What point would be established by that? Any at all?
That while over 25 is a large portion of min wage earners, very few over 25 are min wage earners and the impact of any increase in minimum wage will be more on teenagers.

And pretty obviously, I'm already familiar with the BLS tables. You can feel free to cite them without all sorts of links.
You're not the only one reading this, I would hope, so links are useful.
 
The relevant question is to what degree individuals or families rely on minimum wage as primary source of income. The answer is an extremely small number. Add on that most min wage workers are part time workers, and the min wage is not a significant issue as far as making ends meet as there are very few people making min wage in that situation.

You are correct.
~50% of minimum wage earners are 25 or under. They are either still living at home or just starting to earn a living. Another portion are older people or a spouse just looking to supplment income with a part time job . Part time workers are more likely than full time workers to make minimum wage, by about a 6 to 1 ratio.
 
Fine then simply do that indexing, the 20% immediate bump, when unemployemnt is already high, is not needed at all.
Left to languish as it has been by Republicans, the minimum wage has lost 30% of its purchasing power in 40 years. It is not enough to support many of the people who depend on it, forcing them into welfare programs that all of us pay for. That is a stupid situation that merely subsidizes the exploitation of low-wage labor and corporate externaliziation of their true costs of production. The proposed 20% increase is not at all enough, but it is a step in the right direction, and the indexing of it even moreso. Increases in the minimum wage have not been shown to result in any measurebale change in unemployment, which has of course been falling for some time. The minimum wage increase as proposed would occur in stages through 2015. The idea that this will be too much for the economy to bear coming from people who actually voted for Mitt Romney is simply laughable.
 
Left to languish as it has been by Republicans, the minimum wage has lost 30% of its purchasing power in 40 years. It is not enough to support many of the people who depend on it, forcing them into welfare programs that all of us pay for. That is a stupid situation that merely subsidizes the exploitation of low-wage labor and corporate externaliziation of their true costs of production. The proposed 20% increase is not at all enough, but it is a step in the right direction, and the indexing of it even moreso. Increases in the minimum wage have not been shown to result in any measurebale change in unemployment, which has of course been falling for some time. The minimum wage increase as proposed would occur in stages through 2015. The idea that this will be too much for the economy to bear coming from people who actually voted for Mitt Romney is simply laughable.

And this "proposal" is comming from the same folks that see a "need" for keeping 12 million "undocumented" workers in the US and the "need" for expanded "access" for guest workers? People tend to spend very little time working at the minimum wage level, it is not "good policy" to make that period of time longer, discouraging more from acquiring better skills and experience. Nobody is "forcing" those that work at the minimum wage to "qualify for welfare" (usually by having children).
 
In my world my wages are set by how well my company is doing not by how much gas or milk prices rise.
So walking away as quickly as possible from the statement that only an idiot would think [raising prices] is a good idea. In fact even in your world, price increases are a garden-variety, everyday event, isn't that the actual case?

It must be nice to get a raise simply because the cost of clothes went up.
If you don't, you have received a pay CUT. How nice is that? Keep in mind that cash is merely a chit or marker. It is worth only what it can be exchanged for in terms of real goods and services. If price levels go up and your income stays the same, you just got poorer without even trying.
 
And this "proposal" is comming from the same folks that see a "need" for keeping 12 million "undocumented" workers in the US and the "need" for expanded "access" for guest workers? People tend to spend very little time working at the minimum wage level, it is not "good policy" to make that period of time longer, discouraging more from acquiring better skills and experience. Nobody is "forcing" those that work at the minimum wage to "qualify for welfare" (usually by having children).


In 2002 there were ~2.2 million people who earned minimum wage, full and part time.
In 2003 it was ~2.1 million
In 2004 it was ~2 million
In 2005 it was ~1.9 million
In 2006 it was ~1.7 million
In 2007 it was ~1.7 million
In 2008 it was ~2.2 million
In 2009 it was ~2.6 million
In 2010 is was ~2.5 million
In 2011 it was ~3.8 million

The rate was raised in 2008 and again in 2009.
 
So walking away as quickly as possible from the statement that only an idiot would think [raising prices] is a good idea.

Not at all. Only an idiot would think they deserve a pay raise because someone else raised their prices.
 
If you don't, you have received a pay CUT. QUOTE]

Only in Moronland.

You sound like the idiots who run my State, complaining that having their projected budget increase changed from 10% to 5% is a cut.
 
I'm an accountant, at the end of a month the numbers are what they are. I guess to you, reality is binary-land.
Accountants deal with rules and order. They become flustered when dealing with the ever-changing dynamics of economics and economies. This may be part of why accountants make poor economists and poor entrepreneurs. It is an incontestable fact that in the real world, the prices of all sorts of different inputs change every day, and that low-wage labor is just one of those. The minimum wage has no more direct a connection to profits than does the cost of gasoline or electricity or advertising or any other input necessary in the production equation. Entrepreneurs are supposed to manage a business and do so in the face of constant and unpredictable change in the business environment. Those who can't do that may need to look into accountancy as a career instead.
 
In 2002 there were ~2.2 million people who earned minimum wage, full and part time.
In 2003 it was ~2.1 million
In 2004 it was ~2 million
In 2005 it was ~1.9 million
In 2006 it was ~1.7 million
In 2007 it was ~1.7 million
In 2008 it was ~2.2 million
In 2009 it was ~2.6 million
In 2010 is was ~2.5 million
In 2011 it was ~3.8 million

The rate was raised in 2008 and again in 2009.

In times of high unemployment many more will work at ANY job once those UI benefits cease. Again, no rationale is presented for the "need" for illegal alien or "guest worker" labor in unskilled/semi-skilled positions. That labor "option" holds wages for the bottom end down more than any other factor. Take away that "semi-legal" labor option and wages will rise as unemployment falls.
 
A very small percentage.
So you would expect fewer principal earners among teenagers than among those over 25 who are married with a spouse present in the home. Me too.

I've never heard anyone claim it ONLY applies to that group.
It's common enough nonetheless. Minimum wage is just for kids and beginners. Used to be true to some degree perhaps, but it's not today. The same lack of actuality is found for the common claim that minimum wage workers are just high school dropouts who are lazy and poor decision-makers and therefore deserve no more than what they already get. In fact of course, 70% of minimum wage workers have a high school diploma and 60% of those went on to college.

The relevant question is to what degree individuals or families rely on minimum wage as primary source of income. The answer is an extremely small number. Add on that most min wage workers are part time workers, and the min wage is not a significant issue as far as making ends meet as there are very few people making min wage in that situation.
The minimum wage world includes less than 5% of all workers, and even though it can rise to 10-12% and even beyond if one accepts all the near-minimum wage workers that the arguments of organized labor often throw into the mix, we are always talking here about small percentages. Not necessarily about small numbers of people however, and of course, even minorities have rights that include the right to expect protection against being exploited by those more numerous or more economically powerful than they are.

Part-time workers are meanwhile divided between those who are doing it voluntarily and those who are not. That ratio has fallen over the last decade from about 4:1 to about 2:1. Your assumption meanwhile that minimum wage workers somehow do not have problems making ends meet is a just a little odd. It's rich people, not poor people, who have no problems in that area.

Yes, I'm familiar with the law. My point was that a person classified as "at or below Federal minimum wage" is classified by wages. A tip-earner (and they are a significant portion of at or below min wage) is most likely making more than minimum wage once tips are figured in.
More guesswork. Some tipped workers such as the experienced wait staff at high-end restaurants can make a very good living. These are the tip of the iceberg outliers and exceptions to the rule. More than half of tipped workers earn an annual income of less than $20K. Their version of minimum wage has been $2.13 plus tips (less tip stealing) since 1991. If a raise would in fact be as insignifcant as you suggest, the hospitality industry would hardly have spent 20 years and so many millions of dollars trying to beat back proposals for an increase.

That while over 25 is a large portion of min wage earners, very few over 25 are min wage earners and the impact of any increase in minimum wage will be more on teenagers.
In the most recent BLS tables, there are 899K minimum wage workers who are teenagers and 1,933K who are aged 25 and over. That second number is 2.15 times the first one.

You're not the only one reading this, I would hope, so links are useful.
That's fine, just don't go to any bother on my account.
 
You are correct.
~50% of minimum wage earners are 25 or under.
You meant 24 or under.

They are either still living at home or just starting to earn a living.
Did you find their place of residence in the tables?

Another portion are older people or a spouse just looking to supplment income with a part time job . Part time workers are more likely than full time workers to make minimum wage, by about a 6 to 1 ratio.
33% of minimum wage workers are in full-time jobs. Can you tell us what six times that would be? And what do you make of the fact that about a thrid of all part-time workers used to be or have always wanted to be full-time workers and are part-time against their actual wishes?
 
It seems comical to me that someone can be smart and charismatic enough to become the POTUS, and still lack a basic understanding of how things actually work in the world.
China doesn't have a minimum wage. Perhaps you'd find living there to be a better idea than living here? There are many fine rabbit hutch cages in Hong Kong that accommodate people who work for less than a minimum wage, maybe you should reserve one?
 
And this "proposal" is comming from the same folks that see a "need" for keeping 12 million "undocumented" workers in the US and the "need" for expanded "access" for guest workers? People tend to spend very little time working at the minimum wage level, it is not "good policy" to make that period of time longer, discouraging more from acquiring better skills and experience. Nobody is "forcing" those that work at the minimum wage to "qualify for welfare" (usually by having children).
More useless rant and ramble. I'm sure you do indeed harbor personal animosities of various sorts toward the foreign born population, but these are hardly grounds for policy of any sort. Undocumented workers are to be found at every level of society, from lettuce-picker to brain-surgeon. But the topic here has been the minimum wage, it's ever decreasing value (absent indexing), and its subsidization of corporate exploitation of low-wage labor and the externalization of the true costs of production, moving them out of corporate pockets and into the pockets of everybody else. Paying a wage that leaves a full-time worker eligible for public assistance is no different from simply dumping untreated toxic waste in a public park. Except of course that toxic waste dumping is a crime.
 
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