Academia is used as an excuse to hold the youth back

[ttwtt78640]

Educational requirements are getting higher and higher even for menial work, mostly because of job scarcity and employers can be more selective.

I'm happy with my career but honestly my advice to any young person thinking about post-secondary is that they should only do it if they can get relevant experience and if their work sector has good hiring rates. The cost of education is mostly not worth it anymore and the market is saturated with degree holders.

My sister has been applying for work as an administrative receptionist and I am shocked to hear that some companies are actually asking for degree holders only. Seriously? To work a front desk? How lazy companies have become... you used to get on the job training or even apprenticeship, and now they just expect you to know everything on arrival.

Much of this trend can be attributed to the value (or lack thereof) of a modern HS diploma. Note the number of non-credit "preparatory" courses offered at most community colleges, this should be a good clue that HS is not up to par. A HS diploma is no longer a guarantee, to an employer, that you have a reasonable command of the English language or have basic math skills, in other words, if you are even trainable. Many employers do not wish to waste time trying to train folks that are not educated enough to make that worth their effort.

 

[imagep]

Okay. Let's use that analogy. I do a job that requires me to life 65 lbs. of mental weight. Why the hell would I waste my time and money learning to life 150 lbs. of mental weight? Espeically when I pay for the ability to lift 70 lbs. of mental weight and then work to build additional mental strength on my own after that fact.

For example.... I have an Associates Degree in my chosen field. That's all I need to get by in this line of work. Why would I have wasted an additional two years to get my Bachelor's degree? Two years more of expenses and two years less of income. Seems like a pretty stupid equation to me.

I agree that it is silly to get more than the minimum education if all you want to do is to get by. But some of us want to do better than just getting by. To me, college wasn't about getting a job, it was about getting an education. What I do today is frequently done by people with no college, or who have degrees outside of my field, but I have also beat the odds in what I do, I make a decent living, I provided well for my child and I am financially able to help him through college. Without the education that I obtained in college, I don't think that I would have done as well in life in general.

Now I will admit, that with intense private study I could have learned just as much on my own without the aid of a formal college, or maybe more. But when one is applying for a job, it's darn hard to convince an employer who requires a minimum of a bachelors degree just to get an interview that one has the equivalent knowledge and ability acquired on ones own.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Much of this trend can be attributed to the value (or lack thereof) of a modern HS diploma. Note the number of non-credit "preparatory" courses offered at most community colleges, this should be a good clue that HS is not up to par. A HS diploma is no longer a guarantee, to an employer, that you have a reasonable command of the English language or have basic math skills, in other words, if you are even trainable. Many employers do not wish to waste time trying to train folks that are not educated enough to make that worth their effort.

They're now, making all these tests to show the actual reading and math ability of individuals.

Example: ACT WorkKeys | ACT

It's like 8th grade stuff, but graduates sometimes fail to pass it.

 

[ttwtt78640]

They're now, making all these tests to show the actual reading and math ability of individuals.

Example: ACT WorkKeys | ACT

It's like 8th grade stuff, but graduates sometimes fail to pass it.

Exactly! Grades in HS are a joke, as are our graduation rates. The educational establishment needs to make it appear that more money is needed to accomplish the "goal" of increasing the graduation rate/test scores, while ever lowering the actual educational achievment required to get that HS diploma. Also, the more students that are labeled as "economically disadvantaged" or "special needs" the more federal funds are added and the less strict the "requirements" for improvement are made. Some have gone so far as to even "grade" standardized test scores on a racial and ethnic based curve.

 

[Tigger]

while i think that college is vastly overpriced, the answer is that there is a lot more to your life and to your role as a citizen than just your job. the country benefits from a well educated population.

The country benefits from a well-educated population, not an over-educated population. Your career is what allows you to survive in society. It's what you use to put a roof over your head, to feed and clothe yourself, and to provide for your family. That is your primary duty in life. Anything beyond that is gravy.

I agree that it is silly to get more than the minimum education if all you want to do is to get by. But some of us want to do better than just getting by. To me, college wasn't about getting a job, it was about getting an education. What I do today is frequently done by people with no college, or who have degrees outside of my field, but I have also beat the odds in what I do, I make a decent living, I provided well for my child and I am financially able to help him through college. Without the education that I obtained in college, I don't think that I would have done as well in life in general.

I had most of my worthwhile non-career education long before I graduated from high school. I have no delusions of grandeur about owning or operating a company, or even running the department I work in. Nor do I expect/want to become an officer of the Union that I'm part of. I'm happy to be the soldier/worker instead of the general/boss. Much less stress at this end. AND, when the bosses and suck-ups are all here on Saturday trying to get a project done, I'll be at home enjoying my weekend.

Now I will admit, that with intense private study I could have learned just as much on my own without the aid of a formal college, or maybe more. But when one is applying for a job, it's darn hard to convince an employer who requires a minimum of a bachelors degree just to get an interview that one has the equivalent knowledge and ability acquired on ones own.

I'm not saying that nobody should get a Bachelor's Degree. What I'm suggesting is that if I'm hiring for job that requires a BS and someone walks in with a Master's Degree or a PhD, I'm not going to consider them because a)they've overeducated themselves for the position, b)they're going to want more money than the job pays, and c) are likely to be looking to move on from the job in relatively short order.

 

[Fisher]

I went to college looking to get a better job; I went to grad school so I would never have to work for anybody ever again if I did not so desire. The flexibility of being my own boss and not having to put all my eggs in one basket are invaluable in non-monetary ways. My concern is that too many people are investing too much time and money pursuing a place in a broken marketplace. It is a game of musical chairs with far too few chairs.

 

[Tigger]

I went to college looking to get a better job; I went to grad school so I would never have to work for anybody ever again if I did not so desire. The flexibility of being my own boss and not having to put all my eggs in one basket are invaluable in non-monetary ways. My concern is that too many people are investing too much time and money pursuing a place in a broken marketplace. It is a game of musical chairs with far too few chairs.

I understand where you are coming from. However, I do not see the value in wasting my time and energy to gain the stress that being one's own, or anyone else's boss brings with it. The reward is not worth the cost so far as I'm concerned.

 

[Helix]

The country benefits from a well-educated population, not an over-educated population. Your career is what allows you to survive in society. It's what you use to put a roof over your head, to feed and clothe yourself, and to provide for your family. That is your primary duty in life. Anything beyond that is gravy.

i disagree. the knowledge base is a resource we can tap into for all kinds of innovative reasons, and for other reasons we might not be able to foresee right now. think of all of the brains in our country as a kind of national computer. it may or may not be enough right now, but it certainly won't be enough in the future if we don't upgrade it while we have the chance.

I had most of my worthwhile non-career education long before I graduated from high school. I have no delusions of grandeur about owning or operating a company, or even running the department I work in. Nor do I expect/want to become an officer of the Union that I'm part of. I'm happy to be the soldier/worker instead of the general/boss. Much less stress at this end. AND, when the bosses and suck-ups are all here on Saturday trying to get a project done, I'll be at home enjoying my weekend.

I'm not saying that nobody should get a Bachelor's Degree. What I'm suggesting is that if I'm hiring for job that requires a BS and someone walks in with a Master's Degree or a PhD, I'm not going to consider them because a)they've overeducated themselves for the position, b)they're going to want more money than the job pays, and c) are likely to be looking to move on from the job in relatively short order.

and i'm not arguing that everyone in the country should have a college degree. it's not for everyone, but i think anyone who wants a college education should be encouraged to get one, and all financial obstacles should be removed. i think one of the problems is that so many just look at college as job training. in a way, it is, but that's not the only reason to get an education, nor do i believe it is necessarily the primary reason.

 

[Fisher]

I understand where you are coming from. However, I do not see the value in wasting my time and energy to gain the stress that being one's own, or anyone else's boss brings with it. The reward is not worth the cost so far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps. But if you had ever been able to take months off without suffering any significant financial downside to be there for a seriously or terminally ill relative then you might think differently. It is stressful, but you can also hire people who are very good at shouldering a lot of that load for you (empty-nester moms are IMHO the absolute best at being able to wing it when you need them to). I guess it depends on your personality. I have no desire to do the same thing day in and day out for decades in exchange for money. I desire to do as little as possible for the money I need giving me the ample opportunity to do the things I want, need, or that interest me. Life on balance is a lot richer whether I am or not financially.

 

[Tigger]

i disagree. the knowledge base is a resource we can tap into for all kinds of innovative reasons, and for other reasons we might not be able to foresee right now. think of all of the brains in our country as a kind of national computer. it may or may not be enough right now, but it certainly won't be enough in the future if we don't upgrade it while we have the chance.

I don't look at education on that level. I look at it on the personal level. I know what I need to run my life, do my job, and to satiate my personal interests (books, history, and sports). Anything more than that is a waste. If that means I become obsolete at some point, so be it.

and i'm not arguing that everyone in the country should have a college degree. it's not for everyone, but i think anyone who wants a college education should be encouraged to get one, and all financial obstacles should be removed. i think one of the problems is that so many just look at college as job training. in a way, it is, but that's not the only reason to get an education, nor do i believe it is necessarily the primary reason.

So you want to allow my high school classmate Joe to go off to college and do nothing, learn nothing, and have nothing of value to show for his four years at a pseudo-Ivy League school just becahse he wants to? You're going to pay for it, for him as well. Ain't that sweet of you. My parents made it exceptionally clear that they would not lay out a single penny for my higher education if there was not a career path at the end of it. I'm very glad they did, because if not I'd likely have taken something worthless like History or Archeology or Anthropology as a Major instead of Computer Aided Design and Drafting (CADD). I have a career now. All I'd have had with those majors would be a pile of debt.

Perhaps. But if you had ever been able to take months off without suffering any significant financial downside to be there for a seriously or terminally ill relative then you might think differently. It is stressful, but you can also hire people who are very good at shouldering a lot of that load for you (empty-nester moms are IMHO the absolute best at being able to wing it when you need them to). I guess it depends on your personality. I have no desire to do the same thing day in and day out for decades in exchange for money. I desire to do as little as possible for the money I need giving me the ample opportunity to do the things I want, need, or that interest me. Life on balance is a lot richer whether I am or not financially.

Thankfully, my mother was still alive to take care of my father when he was going through his cancer, so that's not something I have to worry about. As you say there are many qualified people who can help out with that sort of thing.

I don't mind doing the same thing day in and day out. What frustrates the crap out of me is not knowing what I'm going to be doing, or having proper direction on how to do it. Trust me, I don't do anything more than I have to. I have the opportunity for probably 6-8 hours of OT this Saturday and I've turned it down. My needs, wants, and desires are very simple and basic. No grandeous plans or desires. Just a simple life.

 

[Helix]

I don't look at education on that level. I look at it on the personal level. I know what I need to run my life, do my job, and to satiate my personal interests (books, history, and sports). Anything more than that is a waste. If that means I become obsolete at some point, so be it.

as with most things, this issue doesn't begin and end with just you. we're talking about building a national resource, not whether more college would have helped you personally at your job.

So you want to allow my high school classmate Joe to go off to college and do nothing, learn nothing, and have nothing of value to show for his four years at a pseudo-Ivy League school just becahse he wants to? You're going to pay for it, for him as well. Ain't that sweet of you. My parents made it exceptionally clear that they would not lay out a single penny for my higher education if there was not a career path at the end of it. I'm very glad they did, because if not I'd likely have taken something worthless like History or Archeology or Anthropology as a Major instead of Computer Aided Design and Drafting (CADD). I have a career now. All I'd have had with those majors would be a pile of debt.

my academic scholarship had performance requirements, as do financial aid scholarships. as for "worthwhile" areas of study, i addressed that in earlier posts.

 

[Tigger]

as with most things, this issue doesn't begin and end with just you. we're talking about building a national resource, not whether more college would have helped you personally at your job.

It does to me. No child of mine would get a dime from me to go to any college without a) an announced major and b) a direct path from that major to a job.

my academic scholarship had performance requirements, as do financial aid scholarships. as for "worthwhile" areas of study, i addressed that in earlier posts.

Yes, many of them do. Most of them are not high enough in my estimation. I know the one I took out ($2000 Stafford Loan) simply required me to maintain a C- average. It should probably have been B- (at least); not that it would have been an issue for me.

 

[Helix]

Yes, many of them do. Most of them are not high enough in my estimation. I know the one I took out ($2000 Stafford Loan) simply required me to maintain a C- average. It should probably have been B- (at least); not that it would have been an issue for me.

my scholarship required a 3.0 GPA. i was fairly terrified of losing it, so i did my best to stay as far above it as i possibly could. i did so successfully, which makes me proud of the less mature version of myself.

 

[Tigger]

my scholarship required a 3.0 GPA. i was fairly terrified of losing it, so i did my best to stay as far above it as i possibly could. i did so successfully, which makes me proud of the less mature version of myself.

That's a B average. Not bad. In my experience that's one of the exceptions rather than the rule. Though I'm more familiar with the loan system than the scholarship one.

 

[imagep]

I went to college looking to get a better job; I went to grad school so I would never have to work for anybody ever again if I did not so desire. The flexibility of being my own boss and not having to put all my eggs in one basket are invaluable in non-monetary ways. My concern is that too many people are investing too much time and money pursuing a place in a broken marketplace. It is a game of musical chairs with far too few chairs.

Which brings us to the question: Should we just have fewer people becoming educated, or should we fix the marketplace?

 

[Fisher]

Which brings us to the question: Should we just have fewer people becoming educated, or should we fix the marketplace?

Both.

 

[imagep]

My son's academic scholarship requires a 3.0, his music scholarship only requires a 2.5 overall but a 3.0 in his music classes.

 

[Fisher]

My son's academic scholarship requires a 3.0, his music scholarship only requires a 2.5 overall but a 3.0 in his music classes.

My biggest scholarship (I had a few combined together) had a sliding scale--to get the most I had to have 3.5 or above; anything below 2.75 for a semester and I would have lost it completely and for good, in between the payments stepped down in .25 GPA increments.

 

[Northern Light]

One of the ways out, is to stop subsidizing education, to a degree.
Not the preferable way, but one way.

I would prefer the opposite of subsidizing more kinds of education, while placing a realistic emphasis on apprenticeships and other kinds of learning modalities.

 

[Mathematician]

Inability to recognize and value Faith, Tradition, and the Wisdom of Common Sense is as surely ignorance as the lack of knowledge and education. In fact, I would suggest that Faith, Tradition, Wisdom, and Common Sense should be much more highly sought after than pure knowledge.

We waste our time, energy, and money trying to teach people things they have no interest in or use for; then we are amazed that they don't want to and end up not learning them. Why teach physics to a student who is obviously going to be wearing a uniform with his name on the front for the next 25 years? Especially when he can't even speak/read sufficient english to understand the text book? Why teach trig or calculus to someone whose resume is going to say "mom" for the entirety of their life? What purpose does this serve?

As some others have pointed out, the purpose is preparation. Unless you want to complain about limited brain capacity and apply the pigeon-hole principle to show your memory is getting overwritten, you can't have too much knowledge. In particular, the required training you take through high school is a basis for whatever career route you choose. I bet you that if I give you a large number of 10 year olds, you'll predict their career at 30 with less than 5% accuracy, and likely very close to 0%. Even they don't know, as demonstrated by the number who enter college as an undecided major. So, unless you are going to assign their lifetime career to them or make them have a choice at that age and stick with it, general training to give them as many choices as possible is the appropriate strategy.

I understand you are among many who don't see the value in certain pieces of knowledge. As a math teacher, I see this all the time.