About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....[W:175]

[Goshin]

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

 

[ultmd]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

Restraint and moderation are always advisable. Not just in this situation.

So far, I've noticed no media speculation, pontification or erroneous data.

But since you're concerned about half-cocked reactions, let's talk about the idea that policy discussion is not warranted after another mass shooting in this country.

 

[Your Star]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

The policy decisions are pretty obvious. It all comes down if we have the courage as a nation to get it down. I highly doubt it. At least, at this current time.

 

[Common Sense 1]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

Excellent post with great advise! If all would follow it the tone and temperature would be greatly reduced.

 

[Goshin]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Restraint and moderation are always advisable. Not just in this situation.

So far, I've noticed no media speculation, pontification or erroneous data.

But since you're concerned about half-cocked reactions, let's talk about the idea that policy discussion is not warranted after another mass shooting in this country.

Policy formulated in a time of high emotional reaction is typically poor policy. A measure of time for passions to cool is advisable. This is as applicable in making household decisions as it is in national policy decisions.

I will grant that so far the media *seems* to be exercising some restraint.... surprising... but we have no way of knowing how accurate the info we're presently getting is.

 

[Ikari]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

....but I want to turn this into a partisan crap fest now!

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

You know, when I first looked in DP this morning I was almost tempted to scroll back through last night and figure out when, exactly, that horse you are calling 'restraint' left the barn. It might have happened as the event was still unfolding.

Personally, I find that a little restraint at times like this can help me keep from making a fool of myself.

 

[NeverTrump]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

Number 2 should really be highlighted not to bash the media, but to give them some slack. I can't tell you how many times I've debated with people about events like this and they come at me with, but the media said it so it must have been true right??? The media got it wrong, why did they? This is the reason for conspiracy theories like the Sandy Hook Hoax crap that kept going around for a year or more after the incident. People like to hold onto the straws they heard and don't care to follow up or listen to others who say they are getting the wrong information.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Policy formulated in a time of high emotional reaction is typically poor policy. A measure of time for passions to cool is advisable. This is as applicable in making household decisions as it is in national policy decisions.

I will grant that so far the media *seems* to be exercising some restraint.... surprising... but we have no way of knowing how accurate the info we're presently getting is.

It's all celebrities and leftists on twitter are talking about first thing this morning... Gun control! Gun Control!

That and celebs retweeting "gun sales rocketed by 200% this morning because people are scared of the comming gun control" Ever think that maybe the people are so scared they are rushing out to protect themselves from active shooters?? No instead their mind instantly goes to nefarious.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

And let's not jump to any conclusions about Florida.

Eric Paddock told CNN he helped move his brother from Melbourne, Florida, to Mesquite about a year ago.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Yes, it is awful. Appalling. Tragic. Terrifying. A sad day for the country.


But before everybody goes off half-cocked and badly misinformed and starts making political points from this incident, we really need to bear some things in mind:


1. In the immediate aftermath of such a tragedy, emotions are running high and typically ahead of reason... not a good time for policy decisions.

2. In the first 48 hours after such an event, the news media typically gets many details wrong; publishes stories based on dubious sources; engages in much speculation with little basis.

3. It usually takes several days to a couple of weeks before accurate information begins to become available. It can take a lot longer than that for all relevant details to come out.

4. Pontificating based on what we know NOW, is probably going to be pontificating based on limited and often erroneous data.



It would be nice to see some restraint for once, though I don't really expect it.

Well, this is a good suggestion but speculation and emotional responses are what people do in these cases. It's totally unavoidable, G.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Restraint and moderation are always advisable. Not just in this situation.

So far, I've noticed no media speculation, pontification or erroneous data.

But since you're concerned about half-cocked reactions, let's talk about the idea that policy discussion is not warranted after another mass shooting in this country.

Policy discussion should really be based on facts, circumstances and as complete a context as we can get in a reasonable amount of time. Knee jerk legislation when stuff like this happens is most often oppressive and ineffective.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

I have no idea what we would be waiting to find out before talking about this. Maybe this claim from DAESH that this is their work, that's the only thing that we dont know that would change anything that matters, and I find their claim unlikely.

 

[ultmd]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Policy formulated in a time of high emotional reaction is typically poor policy. A measure of time for passions to cool is advisable. This is as applicable in making household decisions as it is in national policy decisions.

I will grant that so far the media *seems* to be exercising some restraint.... surprising... but we have no way of knowing how accurate the info we're presently getting is.

That would depend on the issue and the policy. If in this instance the policy discussion involves gun control, there is nothing about this latest tragedy that changes the arguments. The arguments have all been made.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is found to be mentally ill.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is found to be a member of some domestic or foreign terrorist movement or ideology.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is a religious fanatic.

It doesn't matter if the shooter acted out temporary, emotional incompetence.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is just a horrible human being who decided to do something evil.

The policy issues have all been expressed and debated on all sides. It's just a matter of political courage at this point.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

The policy decisions are pretty obvious. It all comes down if we have the courage as a nation to get it down. I highly doubt it. At least, at this current time.

let me guess-you want gun bans. why not come out and say it

 

[Northern Light]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Too bad every time there's a mass shooting, nobody in congress is rushing to pass a bill that would restore funding to all the mental health facilities across the country that were shut down in the 90's and early aughts. Nope, nobody wants to talk about that.

Equally as disappointing is people caring more about whether it was an act of terrorism or not and if they can somehow tie it to Muslims.

Almost every mass shooting in recent U.S. history involves a perpetrator who's on medication and/or has a history of mental health problems.

The #1 topic we SHOULD be talking about is how, as a nation that has gun freedom, we are doubly responsibile for taking care of our people who have mental health problems, rather than giving them pills and sending them on their merry way.

Instead, it's always about whether someone owns a gun or not.

A lot of the medications out there, like anti-psychotics and even SSRIs, have side effects that make it easier for people to harm themselves and others if they are not also receiving ongoing talk therapy. The suicide rate for SSRIs goes up the longer you're on them in the absence of a therapist.

But the media NEVER talks about this, maybe because it would implicate big pharma? Or maybe because it's harder to face the reality that we have some genuinely disturbed people in this country who aren't terrorists or even into politics?

 

[Goshin]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

That would depend on the issue and the policy. If in this instance the policy discussion involves gun control, there is nothing about this latest tragedy that changes the arguments. The arguments have all been made.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is found to be mentally ill.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is found to be a member of some domestic or foreign terrorist movement or ideology.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is a religious fanatic.

It doesn't matter if the shooter acted out temporary, emotional incompetence.

It doesn't matter if the shooter is just a horrible human being who decided to do something evil.

The policy issues have all been expressed and debated on all sides. It's just a matter of political courage at this point.

Actually those things do matter, at least most of them.

Details matter. What good is it to "DO SOMETHING!" if the something you do is useless and would have had no effect?


Just for one example, mental illness. If the shooter was mentally ill, did anyone know beforehand? Had he been treated? Had he ever been recommended for commitment?

In the 80s federal funding for mental hospitals was gutted and many closed. As former LE I know we have lots of people running around loose who ought to be in a mental hospital, but there's literally no where to put them.

This might or might not be a factor.... we don't know yet.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

I read where ISIS is taking credit .

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Actually those things do matter, at least most of them.

Details matter. What good is it to "DO SOMETHING!" if the something you do is useless and would have had no effect?


Just for one example, mental illness. If the shooter was mentally ill, did anyone know beforehand? Had he been treated? Had he ever been recommended for commitment?

In the 80s federal funding for mental hospitals was gutted and many closed. As former LE I know we have lots of people running around loose who ought to be in a mental hospital, but there's literally no where to put them.

This might or might not be a factor.... we don't know yet.

There is no if about it, the only if is if there had been a diagnosis.

 

[ultmd]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Policy discussion should really be based on facts, circumstances and as complete a context as we can get in a reasonable amount of time. Knee jerk legislation when stuff like this happens is most often oppressive and ineffective.

What "knee jerk legislation" are you thinking about?

I can't think of any. Can you?

If anything, the knee jerk responses we usually get are the accusations of "politicizing the issue" that seem to arise even before anyone mentions gun control. You can argue for, or against gun control. That's fine. But the idea that even raising the issue is "knee jerk", is ridiculous. Every time a new "worst mass shooting in history" incident takes place (which seems to be almost every other year, or so) we get the same preemptive and/or dismissive arguments from the same people.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Too bad every time there's a mass shooting, nobody in congress is rushing to pass a bill that would restore funding to all the mental health facilities across the country that were shut down in the 90's and early aughts. Nope, nobody wants to talk about that.

Equally as disappointing is people caring more about whether it was an act of terrorism or not and if they can somehow tie it to Muslims.

Almost every mass shooting in recent U.S. history involves a perpetrator who's on medication and/or has a history of mental health problems.

The #1 topic we SHOULD be talking about is how, as a nation that has gun freedom, we are doubly responsibile for taking care of our people who have mental health problems, rather than giving them pills and sending them on their merry way.

Instead, it's always about whether someone owns a gun or not.

A lot of the medications out there, like anti-psychotics and even SSRIs, have side effects that make it easier for people to harm themselves and others if they are not also receiving ongoing talk therapy. The suicide rate for SSRIs goes up the longer you're on them in the absence of a therapist.

But the media NEVER talks about this, maybe because it would implicate big pharma? Or maybe because it's harder to face the reality that we have some genuinely disturbed people in this country who aren't terrorists or even into politics?

It was for sure an act of terrorism, and yes it matters a great deal if DAESH had anything to do with it because that would add to the evidence that we have no choice but to deal with radical Islamic terror.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

What "knee jerk legislation" are you thinking about?

I can't think of any. Can you?

If anything, the knee jerk responses we usually get are the accusations of "politicizing the issue" that seem to arise even before anyone mentions gun control. You can argue for, or against gun control. That's fine. But the idea that even raising the issue is "knee jerk", is ridiculous. Every time a new "worst mass shooting in history" incident takes place (which seems to be almost every other year, or so) we get the same preemptive and/or dismissive arguments from the same people.

The NY SAFE Act comes to mind as does most of the Patriot Act.

 

[Your Star]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

let me guess-you want gun bans. why not come out and say it

It's pretty obvious we need more gun control. Gun ban, no. Gun control, hell yes.

 

[Northern Light]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

It was for sure an act of terrorism, and yes it matters a great deal if DAESH had anything to do with it because that would add to the evidence that we have no choice but to deal with radical Islamic terror.

To classify it as terrorism we have to know the perpetrator's motive, and we don't yet.

Motive is everything in terrorism cases.

 

[Your Star]

Re: About Las Vegas... Patience, folks....

Honestly, though. The gun control debate most likely ended after Sandy Hook. If the slaughter of children wasn't enough for this nation to act, nothing will make us act.