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Abortion Warnings?

Fantasea said:
As I wrote in another post, an egg is not human life and a spetm is not human life.
It is human and it is life. Your claim is nonsense and contrived.

However, when the egg and sperm unite, then a new and unique human life is concieved. In some instances, multiple human births result from the same pregnancy.
Ah, so it is unique, but it isn't? That's lame.

An egg, unfertilized by sperm cannot concieve; sperm, without an egg to fertilize cannot concieve.
And a zygote can't conceive either.
 
jfuh said:
Case in point a 4 week old embryo resembles nothing human at all nor distinguishable with other mammals.

Yeah...perhaps if your knowledge of biology and "human" is limited. However I assure you that scientists and drs can recognize it as human at any stage of development and they have no problem distinguishing it from other mammals.

Three photos, one is a cat embryo, the other a human embryo and the final a dolphin all at 4 weeks which one is human, which one is feline which one is porpose?
cat_embryo.jpg

human_embryo.jpg

dolphin_embryo.jpg

Practically intisguishable.

If I took blood from you, and a dolphin, and a feline and I save drops of blood from all three of you most people on the street won't be able to tell which blood belonged to which entity. But you know what it doesn't matter cause scientists can. See they are advanced and have modern technology and all. But thats okay you keep making assumptions and interpretations based on your own ignorance.

Stem cell research is not cloning.

They most certainly do clone embryos. Do a little more research.

Stemcells can not mature into human beings without the utilization of cloning techniques.

No its without the utilization of a womb. If never emplanted in a womb they have no opportunity to fully develop. However, you should check out all the artificial womb research. Wonder what they plan on doing with that once they get a working one?


When religon inserts itself to influence policy which is a clear violation of seperation of church and state it is religon itself that is opening up to become a target. Today nearly all laws that are prohibiting abortion (ie South Dakota, Mississippi) were proudly and opening made through religious influence. A clear violation of law.

Actually this is where you're wrong. I'm not religious but I can educate you anyway. See in the US we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Anotherwards the government can not force you to be religious or make you of or belonging to any religion. However there are no laws against people being influenced by their religion. There are no laws against people behavinng in a way influenced by religion. If a group of religious people try to pass a law due to their religious beliefs theres actually nothing wrong with that. Only if they passed a law demanding others practice their religion would there be a problem. You can't pass a law forcing Catholicism on others. However if a bunch of Catholics work to overturn the death penalty due to their belief that we shouldn't kill.....not a problem.

Educate yourself.
 
star2589 said:
sure it can, you just gotta let it grow up first.
Until it is way beyond being a zygote, yes. You can say the same about the sperm and egg.
 
jfuh said:
I made a critical error in my former post, instead of 4 months, it should be 4 weeks.Case in point a 4 week old embryo resembles nothing human at all nor distinguishable with other mammals.
Three photos, one is a cat embryo, the other a human embryo and the final a dolphin all at 4 weeks which one is human, which one is feline which one is porpose?
cat_embryo.jpg

human_embryo.jpg

dolphin_embryo.jpg

Practically intisguishable.

What's lunatic about it. Look at the photos above, do any of those three embryos represent human to you?
Irrespective of how they appear to an untrained eye, the indisputable fact remains that each will produce the only result which it can produce.

I can't imagine a person of your obvious intelligence beleiving that any reasonable person would accept the point you are attempting to make.
 
steen said:
Until it is way beyond being a zygote, yes. You can say the same about the sperm and egg.

in a sense, yes. gamates cant reproduce individually, but they can reproduce by joining if you think of humans as large gamate carriers.
 
Naughty Nurse said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
The correct statement is: to exterminate or not.
So YOU get to define the English language? :roll:
The English language is spoken over there. The English language is mangled over here.

Both Winston Churchill and Professor Henry Higgins attested to that.
 
Fantasea said:
And I can't concieve of why you are so dense.
bwohoo, did I catch you in having made a very silly and nonsense argument? Now you are all upset. How lame, all that evasiveness of yours.
 
steen said:
bwohoo, did I catch you in having made a very silly and nonsense argument? Now you are all upset. How lame, all that evasiveness of yours.
With all due respect, if any respect is due, you couldn't catch a cold.
 
Fantasea said:
With all due respect, if any respect is due, you couldn't catch a cold.
I caught you spewing nonsense, liar.
 
steen said:
I caught you spewing nonsense, liar.

I see you are still only exchanging insults instead of actually engaging in intelligent debate.
 
Fantasea said:
Feel free to disagree if it will alleviate embarrassment.

Uh, why is it that when my response is in kind with yours, you fall back on ad hominem attacks?
 
afr0byte said:
Uh, why is it that when my response is in kind with yours, you fall back on ad hominem attacks?
Because you disagree with him and he's no facts to back up his lies
 
talloulou said:
Yeah...perhaps if your knowledge of biology and "human" is limited. However I assure you that scientists and drs can recognize it as human at any stage of development and they have no problem distinguishing it from other mammals.
Not without instruments or other data.

talloulou said:
If I took blood from you, and a dolphin, and a feline and I save drops of blood from all three of you most people on the street won't be able to tell which blood belonged to which entity. But you know what it doesn't matter cause scientists can. See they are advanced and have modern technology and all. But thats okay you keep making assumptions and interpretations based on your own ignorance.
Yes keep on assuming because, hate to break it to you, but biology is the very region of my academic expertise. Haven't you learnt by now never to assume? My "interpretations" are all fact that I have backed up with sources. You? I have yet to see a single source.

talloulou said:
They most certainly do clone embryos. Do a little more research.
Now why would we need to clone embryos? You are aware that cloning embryos is not taking cells from a fully developed fetus and then cloning for cells? It's simply allowing the cell to continue it's natural division but not allowing those cells to clump. An entity is never formed.

talloulou said:
No its without the utilization of a womb. If never emplanted in a womb they have no opportunity to fully develop. However, you should check out all the artificial womb research. Wonder what they plan on doing with that once they get a working one?
Watching too much sci-fi I see, oh wait, let me guess, "The Island" right?

talloulou said:
Actually this is where you're wrong. I'm not religious but I can educate you anyway. See in the US we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
Perhaps you are unware of the Establishment clause? Seperation of church and state.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

talloulou said:
Anotherwards the government can not force you to be religious or make you of or belonging to any religion. However there are no laws against people being influenced by their religion.
As well as no laws to be established by the influence of religion.

talloulou said:
There are no laws against people behavinng in a way influenced by religion. If a group of religious people try to pass a law due to their religious beliefs theres actually nothing wrong with that.
That's a flat out lie. Again let me reference you to the establishment clause.

talloulou said:
Only if they passed a law demanding others practice their religion would there be a problem. You can't pass a law forcing Catholicism on others. However if a bunch of Catholics work to overturn the death penalty due to their belief that we shouldn't kill.....not a problem.
If it's a law that is based on catholic beliefs then yes, it very much is a problem even if it's for a good cause. However the establishment clause clearly states that there shall be no such law that respects the establishment of any religion.

talloulou said:
Educate yourself.
Indeed, an education might help you from spreading pro-life lies.
 
Fantasea said:
Irrespective of how they appear to an untrained eye, the indisputable fact remains that each will produce the only result which it can produce.

I can't imagine a person of your obvious intelligence beleiving that any reasonable person would accept the point you are attempting to make.
Point I'm making is simply that it is not aborting a human being.
 
jfuh said:
Because you disagree with him and he's no facts to back up his lies
I have posted these before, however I don't recall your ever responding to them. Perhaps you can furnish some testimony from similarly credentialled individuals who are able to offer a successful refutation.

"As surprising as this may be to some people, there is no debate within the medical community as to when life begins. Life begins at conception. Therefore, every "succesful" abortion ends the life of a living human being, and we're not asking you to take our word for it. Consider the testimony below from an assortment of leading embryology text books."

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Essentials of Human Embryology
William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed.
Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17.

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.
E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."
In addition to the consistent testimony found in medical textbooks, there is some equally conclusive evidence that exists on the public record. In 1981, a United States Senate judiciary subcommittee received the following testimony from a collection of medical experts (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981):

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth
Harvard University Medical School

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni
Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune
Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Professor Hymie Gordon
Mayo Clinic

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."


Dr. Watson A. Bowes
University of Colorado Medical School

"The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter – the beginning is conception."
 
Fantasea said:
I have posted these before, however I don't recall your ever responding to them. Perhaps you can furnish some testimony from similarly credentialled individuals who are able to offer a successful refutation.

"As surprising as this may be to some people, there is no debate within the medical community as to when life begins. Life begins at conception. Therefore, every "succesful" abortion ends the life of a living human being, and we're not asking you to take our word for it. Consider the testimony below from an assortment of leading embryology text books."

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Essentials of Human Embryology
William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed.
Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17.

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.
E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."
In addition to the consistent testimony found in medical textbooks, there is some equally conclusive evidence that exists on the public record. In 1981, a United States Senate judiciary subcommittee received the following testimony from a collection of medical experts (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981):

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth
Harvard University Medical School

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni
Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune
Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Professor Hymie Gordon
Mayo Clinic

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."


Dr. Watson A. Bowes
University of Colorado Medical School

"The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter – the beginning is conception."
Spare me the pro-life rhetoric and lies.
 
talloulou said:
....not exactly the most witty or intelligent comeback I've ever heard. :rofl
Comeback? Show some actual facts then.
 
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