abortion compromise

[afr0byte]

You'd think so but some women actually have more than one abortion in their lifetime. I'm thinking the rhetoric that compares an abortion to an appendectomy is really taking hold in society.

Nah, an appendectomy would be harder, at least physically, on the woman.

 

[Iriemon]

You'd think so but some women actually have more than one abortion in their lifetime. I'm thinking the rhetoric that compares an abortion to an appendectomy is really taking hold in society.

I see your point, but I find it hard to believe that many determine to use abortion as the primary means of contraception. And if so, I'd guess it is because other forms of birth control were not readily available.

 

[talloulou]

Should there be some level of shame assoicated with abortion, or no?

 

[talloulou]

I see your point, but I find it hard to believe that many determine to use abortion as the primary means of contraception. And if so, I'd guess it is because other forms of birth control were not readily available.

Have you seen the abortion numbers? Have you read recently about some mysterious shortage of birth control?

 

[afr0byte]

Should there be some level of shame assoicated with abortion, or no?

I'd think that'd just make women be more secretive about it. Plus, there's nothing wrong with having an abortion.

 

[Iriemon]

Have you seen the abortion numbers? Have you read recently about some mysterious shortage of birth control?

I'll admit I'm not an expert in this area. I had thoght that the Govt does not fund contraceptives, is that true?

 

[FallingPianos]

You'd think so but some women actually have more than one abortion in their lifetime. I'm thinking the rhetoric that compares an abortion to an appendectomy is really taking hold in society.

some yes. and im guessing that they are women who are uneducated about birthcontrol, statistical flukes, and some combination.

if anyone (steen) knows of any research about the topic, that would br great.

 

[talloulou]

I'll admit I'm not an expert in this area. I had thoght that the Govt does not fund contraceptives, is that true?

No in fact it's total BS. Do you understand how much money in tax payer dollars go to Planned Parenthood of which there are thousands across our nation? Do you understand that Planned Parenthood hands out contraceptives for little to no money? But Planned Parenthood isn't happy with that. They'd like the government to fund abortion. Did you know that? And some of the money Planned Parenthood could be using to hand out more contraceptives gets used for lobbying and governmental smear campaigns that attack Washington for the governments refusal to pay for abortion on demand!

 

[Iriemon]

No in fact it's total BS. Do you understand how much money in tax payer dollars go to Planned Parenthood of which there are thousands across our nation? Do you understand that Planned Parenthood hands out contraceptives for little to no money? But Planned Parenthood isn't happy with that. They'd like the government to fund abortion. Did you know that? And some of the money Planned Parenthood could be using to hand out more contraceptives gets used for lobbying and governmental smear campaigns that attack Washington for the governments refusal to pay for abortion on demand!

That being the case, I'd agree there is little excuse for women not to use them.

How much government money does go to Planned Parenthood?

 

[talloulou]

Plus since taxpayers fund planned parenthood we should look at their site and pay attention to the the education they are giving women don't ya think?

Here's some interesting education:

"For some people, outercourse is sex play without vaginal intercourse. For others, it is sex play with no penetration at all — oral, anal, or vaginal. Some people also believe that any kind of penetrative sex play is too risky to be called "safer sex." But many people do have oral and anal sex — sometimes to avoid pregnancy or to "preserve their virginity" — so we include them here."

Who knew anal sex could preserve your virginity?

Another favorite:

"It is even possible that a fetus is unable to perceive pain at any time during pregnancy."


More good to know info in regards to minors and abortion:

"telling a parent is only required in states with mandatory parental involvement laws. Such laws force a woman under 18 to tell a parent or get permission before having an abortion. In most of these states, if she can't talk with her parents — or chooses not to — she can appear before a judge. The judge will consider whether she's mature enough to decide on her own. "

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/

Ain't that nice? So even in States where parental notification is required Planned Parenthood will help you work around that!

 

[talloulou]

That being the case, I'd agree there is little excuse for women not to use them.

How much government money does go to Planned Parenthood?

You know I'd love an exact answer to that but Planned Parenthood doesn't exactly break down their contributions anywhere on their site, unless I just can't find it. However there are different quotes all over the web for different years. They receive federal as well as state money.

"Planned Parenthood receives almost a third of its money in government grants and contracts ($265.2 million in FY 2004). It recevived $306.2 million in clinic income that year, $191 million in private contributions and bequests, $40 million in other income and $7.6 million from the Alan Guttmacher Institute for a total of $810 million.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood

They're a very political group to and have a big activist core so I imagine that eats up alot of cost that could be buying more birth control.

 

[steen]

Where is the incentive for women to stop having abortions and act responsibly?

Ah, so you ARE trying to impose your morals onto others about what is "responsible." So I can say it is irresponsible for you to eat meat and outlaw it? What is considered "responsible" is a highly individual thing.

But thanks for admitting that your view is one of controlling women and forcing them to conform to your ideals. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'll let you. There is NO compromise with that position of yours. I will NOT let you enslave women. Fundie misogyny like yours will NOT stand at any cost. If you want a culture "war" you certainly can get it.

The insentive remains that if it is easier to obtain contraception and you know more about how to use them, then you are less likely to end up qith an unwanted pregnancy. That is ALWAYS easier than having to go through medical treatment. That you think women are so stupid that they can't figure that out is yet another reason why people like you shouldn't EVER have a say in another person's life.

The prochoice side argues that abortion is not killing a human being.

We don't agreee with your made-up, deceptive, revisionist linguistic hyperbole, yes. If you want to engage in emotional histrionics, have at it, but you have fortunately no relevance in the real world when blabbering your nonsense like that.

Hell some of them argue it's killing a parasite. Either way the life developing in the womb has been devalued to the point that an abortion may not be such a big deal for some.

Actually, that life has ALWAYS been an mebryo or a fetus. It is pro-life who seek to elevate it to something it is not, some kind of Holy entity that has dominionship over the woman. And no, hell freezes over before we'll let you oppress women for the sake of a blob of mindless tissue.

If there are no consequences associated with an accidental pregnancy then an accidental pregnancy is no big deal.

Other than abortion being much more of a big deal that using contraceotion is.

but again, thanks for CLEARLY demonstrating how pro-life see a need to control the woman. If something is not a big deal to her, then you will MAKE it a big deal by controlling, oppressing and enslaving her into your theocratic and misogynistic fundie hell. Not a chance as long as we are still alive.

As long as the focus is on restricting the woman, there is no compromise.

 

[steen]

What is the compromise by the pro-choice side for that? A compromise means both sides give up something.

Giving up on dissolving Roe vs Wade and remove all political intrusion into the medical decision. I am willing to live with Roe vs Wade as long as the effort to prevent the woman feeling she will need an abortion is the goal instead of trying to restrict her. There is NO compromise possible in trying to add restrictions onto the woman, the restrictions are already wildly intrusive in the physician-patient relationship.

So the compromise is that neither side will fight.

Is that a worthwile compromise? If not, we continue fighting. That's all there is to it. Compromise and work together on the demand side, or continue to fight on the supply side.

 

[steen]

You'd think so but some women actually have more than one abortion in their lifetime. I'm thinking the rhetoric that compares an abortion to an appendectomy is really taking hold in society.

They are both just surgery. But the appendectomy, involving the opening of the abdoment is MUCH worse and MUCH more risky. It is MUCH better to have an abortion than an appendectomy.

 

[steen]

Should there be some level of shame assoicated with abortion, or no?

Ah, it is all about shame and control, all about imposing YOUR morals onto the woman. That's why there is no compromise. You are about control and theocratic oppression. YOU are pushing misogyny, YOU want to shame, control and teach her a lesson for not living up to your personal standards.


Well, here is the news flash: Go live your own life and leave her alone.

 

[steen]

Have you seen the abortion numbers?

yes, they were going down under Clinton, when contraception was more available and there was more support for pregnant women. Then we got bush, the idiot, who pushed punitive, moralistic theocracy on everybody, restricted sex-ed and teaching about contraception in his attempt at pushing the culture war, and the number of abortions shot way up again. Talk about killing "babies," Fascist a-holes are what REALLY ends up killing "babies."

Have you read recently about some mysterious shortage of birth control?

Actually, many people have difficulty affording contraception or don't learn how to use it properly. Gee, thanks, fundie fascists.

 

[talloulou]

yes, they were going down under Clinton, when contraception was more available and there was more support for pregnant women. Then we got bush, the idiot, who pushed punitive, moralistic theocracy on everybody, restricted sex-ed and teaching about contraception in his attempt at pushing the culture war, and the number of abortions shot way up again. Talk about killing "babies," Fascist a-holes are what REALLY ends up killing "babies."

That's funny 'cause I didn't hear about tons of planned parenthoods closing down after Bush was elected. Futhermore everything I have read suggests Bush increased funding to planned parenthood. Do you have any info you can share that shows otherwise? I also know he has increased funding for abstinence programs but as long as he is still funding planned parenthoods idea of anal sex to keep your virginity what's the problem?

In fact if you had any data to suggest that planned parenthood does not greatly profit from abortion I'd love to see it.

 

[alphamale]

There is no compromise on abortion. Either the feminists are correct, and a fetus is "just a blob of cells" in which case women should be allowed to abort at will, or the pro-lifers are right that a fetus is a human being, in which case abortion in almost all cases should be prohibited.

 

[steen]

some yes. and im guessing that they are women who are uneducated about birthcontrol, statistical flukes, and some combination.

if anyone (steen) knows of any research about the topic, that would br great.

Well, there is always the CDC data:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr//preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm
For women who obtained legal induced abortions and for whom data on previous live births were adequately reported (41 reporting areas), 39% were known to have had no previous live births, and 32% had two or more previous live births (Table 12). The abortion ratio was highest for women who had threeprevious live births (291 per 1,000 live births) and lowest for those who had one previous live birth (194 per 1,000).
For women who obtained an abortion and whose number of previous abortions was adequately reported (40 reporting areas), 54% were reported to have obtained an abortion for the first time, and 19% were reported to have had at least two previous abortions (Table 13).

Then the Guttmacker site.
It is not big on contraceptive info, though. I did find a reference but it is old:

Westoff CF. Contraceptive paths towards the reduction of unintended pregnancy and abortion. Fam Plann Perspect 1988;20:4–13.

Then to pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7286172&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum
Fam Plann Perspect. 1981 Sep-Oct;13(5):218-23.
..These findings suggest the need to reach women with accurate information about contraception and with accessible services, and the importance of offering contraceptive advice and services at the time of abortion. Development of safer, more acceptable, highly effective contraceptives would further reduce the need for abortion.

Then this. Nothing on sex-ed, but looking at repeat pregnancies in teens:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6667732&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum​

 

[afr0byte]

There is no compromise on abortion. Either the feminists are correct, and a fetus is "just a blob of cells" in which case women should be allowed to abort at will, or the pro-lifers are right that a fetus is a human being, in which case abortion in almost all cases should be prohibited.

The issue isn't that black and white, but I'm not going to discuss it with you.

 

[steen]

No in fact it's total BS. Do you understand how much money in tax payer dollars go to Planned Parenthood of which there are thousands across our nation?

http://www.plannedparenthoodrx.com/annualreport/report-04.pdf

Page 24 (report page 22): Government grants and contracts are 264 mill out of 752 mill. Of course, out of their budget 487 mill goes to ALL clinic services.

Do you understand that Planned Parenthood hands out contraceptives for little to no money?

really? Aren't pro-lifers claiming that most of what PP does is abortions?

But Planned Parenthood isn't happy with that. They'd like the government to fund abortion. Did you know that?

I must have missed that. Could you link to the evidence. No? :roll:

And some of the money Planned Parenthood could be using to hand out more contraceptives gets used for lobbying and governmental smear campaigns that attack Washington for the governments refusal to pay for abortion on demand!

And I am sure you have good evidence for that nonsense as well. :roll:

 

[steen]

Plus since taxpayers fund planned parenthood we should look at their site and pay attention to the the education they are giving women don't ya think?

Here's some interesting education:

"For some people, outercourse is sex play without vaginal intercourse. For others, it is sex play with no penetration at all — oral, anal, or vaginal. Some people also believe that any kind of penetrative sex play is too risky to be called "safer sex." But many people do have oral and anal sex — sometimes to avoid pregnancy or to "preserve their virginity" — so we include them here."

Who knew anal sex could preserve your virginity?

Who knew that this was in quotes? Oh, wait, we all do because you were inept enough to provide the quotes as well, showing how dishonest your argument is.

More good to know info in regards to minors and abortion:

"telling a parent is only required in states with mandatory parental involvement laws. Such laws force a woman under 18 to tell a parent or get permission before having an abortion. In most of these states, if she can't talk with her parents — or chooses not to — she can appear before a judge. The judge will consider whether she's mature enough to decide on her own. "

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/

Ain't that nice? So even in States where parental notification is required Planned Parenthood will help you work around that!

Ah, I get it,. You think they should lie to the kids and not tell them about the judicial bypass. Ah, how noble of you to insist that everybody lie to kids. Not enough that pro-lifers do that, now we all have to do it. That's lame and shows a disturbing lack of integrity and honesty.

 

[steen]

You know I'd love an exact answer to that but Planned Parenthood doesn't exactly break down their contributions anywhere on their site, unless I just can't find it.

You just can't find it. It is in every one of their annual reports. Both by income/revenue and specified types of sources of payment and spending.

You mean you REALLY couldn't find that?... ? Are you SURE?

 

[FallingPianos]

Who knew anal sex could preserve your virginity?

I think most teenages view themselves as virgins so long as they've not had penile-vaginal intercourse. gays being an exception. I dont know how new the idea is, but it certainly isnt uncommon.

 

[steen]

That's funny 'cause I didn't hear about tons of planned parenthoods closing down after Bush was elected.

When the number of abortions INCREASED? Why would they close down> Did you at all understand what I said?

Futhermore everything I have read suggests Bush increased funding to planned parenthood.

What he DID do was generate a climate where the punitive, right-wing theocratic and moralistic fundies pushed their silly ideas such as abstinence-only sex-ed, and where abortions subseuently shot upwards where they had been decreasing under Clinton. Having Bush as president REVERSED the trend and lead to MORE abortions.

In fact if you had any data to suggest that planned parenthood does not greatly profit from abortion I'd love to see it.[/quote]Take a look at their annyal reports you can read as well as I can. You quited from a report, but didn't read it? How lame is that!:roll: