Abortion can't be allowed after 16 weeks of pregnancy.

[roguenuke]

Why?


That's exactly how the fetal homicide laws are written. If a person other than the mother chooses to kill the baby, then it's fetal homicide.

Then you cannot use them to against abortion, in those arguments, as you are attempting.

 

[Josie]

It's funny that you presume to know what I feel, especially when you're wrong. "Equally valuable" is not the same as conferring rights to the unborn. Clearly it's not "equal value" when a woman can have or has an abortion.
But if the woman herself chooses to have an abortion, she likely faces no repercussion. So clearly the fetus is not regarded as being on the same legal status as the woman. Someone committing maternal/fetal harm are in effect forcibly removing the woman's right to choose.

My statement was about being equal under homicide laws, not under all laws.

 

[Josie]

Then you cannot use them to against abortion, in those arguments, as you are attempting.

I’m not……..follow the conversation.

 

[Gordy327]

My statement was about being equal under homicide laws, not under all laws.

But you argue a fetus has rights or is deemed a person under homicide laws, which is clearly not the case.

 

[Josie]

But you argue a fetus has rights or is deemed a person under homicide laws, which is clearly not the case.

That clearly is the case in homicide cases.

 

[roguenuke]

I’m not……..follow the conversation.

You claimed they were equal under homicide laws. They aren't. If they were, there wouldn't be an exception for the mother's decision, as that is an exception not recognized in normal homicide laws.

 

[Gordy327]

That clearly is the case in homicide cases.

Homicide caes onvolve the woman. The fetus is only included as an afterthought, for harm inflicted against the woman. If the fetus is not equal under all laws as you claim, then it is clearly not a legal person with rights.

 

[Josie]

You claimed they were equal under homicide laws. They aren't. If they were, there wouldn't be an exception for the mother's decision, as that is an exception not recognized in normal homicide laws.

Sigh. You’re either intentionally misunderstanding me or… In homicide cases, a fetus is equal to the adult mother in most states. No where did I say that means that in abortion cases they are equal under the law.

 

[Josie]

Homicide caes onvolve the woman. The fetus is only included as an afterthought, for harm inflicted against the woman. If the fetus is not equal under all laws as you claim, then it is clearly not a legal person with rights.

Please quote where I said that a fetus is equal under all laws. We are talking about homicide laws.

 

[roguenuke]

Sigh. You’re either intentionally misunderstanding me or… In homicide cases, a fetus is equal to the adult mother in most states. No where did I say that means that in abortion cases they are equal under the law.

No, it isn't. If it were, there wouldn't need to be a separate law that allows for an exception. The mother does not have to die for those laws to apply.

 

[Josie]

No, it isn't. If it were, there wouldn't need to be a separate law that allows for an exception. The mother does not have to die for those laws to apply.

Where did I say she had to die? In most states you cannot legally kill someone else’s fetus.

 

[roguenuke]

Where did I say she had to die? In most states you cannot legally kill someone else’s fetus.

Which is still treating it separately than you would an actual born human, even if it is in the fact that there is one person who is allowed to kill the fetus without any legal consequences stated clearly by the law. That is not true for any other homicides. Your mother cannot simply choose to kill you, nor your father or anyone else. The reason is because of location of the fetus.

 

[Josie]

Which is still treating it separately than you would an actual born human, even if it is in the fact that there is one person who is allowed to kill the fetus without any legal consequences stated clearly by the law. That is not true for any other homicides. Your mother cannot simply choose to kill you, nor your father or anyone else. The reason is because of location of the fetus.

Correct. The mother can kill her unborn human, but it’s illegal in most states to kill someone else’s unborn human. It’s illegal (mostly) to kill born humans across the board.

 

[Gordy327]

Please quote where I said that a fetus is equal under all laws. We are talking about homicide laws.

Oy applicable in states that have the law and when the woman is a victim of homicide first.

 

[roguenuke]

Correct. The mother can kill her unborn human, but it’s illegal in most states to kill someone else’s unborn human. It’s illegal (mostly) to kill born humans across the board.

Which means that the unborn are in fact treated differently than born. And since that law isn't even in every state, but a mother nor father can legally kill their born offspring in any state, that means that they are treated differently in the US.

 

[TXNormalGOP]

After 16 weeks, the baby starts life.

After everyone agrees on the number of weeks, abortion should be legal, safe and rare. Conservative men declaring they have agency over a woman's body is one reason my party is failing.

 

[tres borrachos]

The Charlotte Lozier Institute (CLI), an anti-abortion web site reported on Florida abortion statistics. They said nothing about 10 abortions of a fetus at birth.

Abortion Reporting: Florida (2020) - Lozier Institute

Updated March 8, 2022 Florida publishes preliminary abortion totals on the website of the Agency for Health Care Administration and was one of the first states to release 2020 abortion statistics. Its full report was provided to the Charlotte Lozier Institute (CLI) in May 2021. Changes in...

lozierinstitute.org

So @Bucky lied, as usual.

 

[Bucky]

So @Bucky lied, as usual.

Per Marco Rubio's office, he cited 10 examples in Florida.

 

[tres borrachos]

Per Marco Rubio's office, he cited 10 examples in Florida.

You lied.

 

[soylentgreen]

Yes, it does. Pre-birth is a fetus and still connected to the woman. Post birth is s newborn and autonomically independent.

Correct, yet still wrong.

Scientifically there is no difference between a baby in a womb about to be delivered and a baby outside a womb just delivered except for location. The distinction is purely one of language, what we call the child at a particular point.

The new born is not independent, left on a rock, it will die.

These are basic points that the anti abortionist will deny because they like the myth that babies about to be born will be aborted as well as they ignore the fact that once delivered a child still needs to be cared for rather than just use a fetus as a political card to play.

 

[Gordy327]

Correct, yet still wrong.

Scientifically there is no difference between a baby in a womb about to be delivered and a baby outside a womb just delivered except for location. The distinction is purely one of language, what we call the child at a particular point.

Location makes all the difference and terminology is established. You can call it a child if you want. But it's not a child until its born, plain and simple.

The new born is not independent, left on a rock, it will die.

The newborn is also not physically connected to or parasitically feeding off the woman anymore either.

These are basic points that the anti abortionist will deny because they like the myth that babies about to be born will be aborted as well as they ignore the fact that once delivered a child still needs to be cared for rather than just use a fetus as a political card to play.

Some Anti abortionists actually believe, and even argue, that elective abortions would be performed just before birth if there were no restrictions. Yet they can never provide a single case where that occurs. Neither can they provide a rational argument as to why abortions should be restricted before viability. Instead, thete is just emotional rhetoric. It's irrationality at its finest.

 

[soylentgreen]

Location makes all the difference and terminology is established. You can call it a child if you want. But it's not a child until its born, plain and simple.

The newborn is also not physically connected to or parasitically feeding off the woman anymore either.

Some Anti abortionists actually believe, and even argue, that elective abortions would be performed just before birth if there were no restrictions. Yet they can never provide a single case where that occurs. Neither can they provide a rational argument as to why abortions should be restricted before viability. Instead, thete is just emotional rhetoric. It's irrationality at its finest.

It will always depend on who you ask. Anyone who is pregnant and wants a child will think and talk in terms of a baby, not a fetus. And that makes it a difference of language, not science.

Your kidding!!! Try telling first time parents they are not physically connected to a baby. Several months of interrupted sleep tends to make it feel like a connection. And to put it crudely, those titties are not just for slapping around.

Unfortunately it is also american politics at its worse.

 

[Lursa]

That clearly is the case in homicide cases.

Feel free to show a single fetal homicide law that recognizes rights for the unborn. They do not...they cant...because each one still states explicitly that abortion is exempt from the law, that the woman still has the right to kill her own unborn. (Yeah, I'm not afraid of words.) The charges are brought on behalf of the mother/family and/or the state with regards to their loss. Like for pets or livestock...the owners can put them down, but others can be charged for harming or killing them. The pets and livestock still dont have any rights.

We protect lots of living things with laws, forests, endangered species, coral reefs...doent mean any of them have any rights recognized.

 

[Josie]

Oy applicable in states that have the law and when the woman is a victim of homicide first.

Really? Can you cite that for me, please?

 

[Gordy327]

Really? Can you cite that for me, please?

It's harder to have fetal demise without maternal demise first. And clearly if the woman can or does abort, the law is not applicable.