Abbas urges world to isolate Likud like it does Hamas

[gree0232]

Gal:
The problem is that the Palestinians do not want to live under Israeli rule anymore. They have lost far more than a thousand. They lost more than that in three weeks in Gaza. You cannot spill that kind of blood and just go back to the way things were.

They will never go back to being non-citizens in an Israeli state. They will never go back to living in a state whose government has branded them terrorists and worse.

It is time for the two countries to separate and then co-exist. There will never again be co-existance under Israeli borders. Just ask the Kosovars want being branded Albanian terrorists and attacked did to them.

E. Jerusalem is what broke the Clinton peace deal. The problem is that E. Jerusalem is at the heart of the Palestinian state. If Israel wants to hold on to it, it will have to break the back of the Palestinian people to retain it after they ethnically cleanse the city.

That is the only way they can keep it. There are ways to protect the religious sites, but those are not a valid reason to continue the occupation indefinitely.

 

[gal]

Gal:
The problem is that the Palestinians do not want to live under Israeli rule anymore. They have lost far more than a thousand. They lost more than that in three weeks in Gaza. You cannot spill that kind of blood and just go back to the way things were.

They will never go back to being non-citizens in an Israeli state. They will never go back to living in a state whose government has branded them terrorists and worse.

It is time for the two countries to separate and then co-exist. There will never again be co-existance under Israeli borders. Just ask the Kosovars want being branded Albanian terrorists and attacked did to them.

E. Jerusalem is what broke the Clinton peace deal. The problem is that E. Jerusalem is at the heart of the Palestinian state. If Israel wants to hold on to it, it will have to break the back of the Palestinian people to retain it after they ethnically cleanse the city.

That is the only way they can keep it. There are ways to protect the religious sites, but those are not a valid reason to continue the occupation indefinitely.

gree0232:
I completly agree. there should be two countries in the land of israel. it really doesnt matter if you call it a country or an independent government in the territories. however the result must be the same. Israel must keep its interests. we cannot allow a threat to rise in the east. if the palestinian wants a state of their own fine nobody denies that of them. its a long time consensus in israel that their should be a self proclaimed govenment for the palestinians, however israel cannot allow that state to have a free choise in matters of army and foreign affairs. just image if suddenly a fundementalist group will take contorol wich is a likely scenerio like in iran and gaza then tel aviv is just 15 miles from the border! imagine that al quida will have a foothold in the territories.

to an outside viewer it looks very logical two peoples two states. but you muist remember we are threatened from all sides. we have a cold peace with eagypt and jordan and not so freindly terms with syiria and lebanon. we cannot allow another front to be open. israel must have some control over the territories. that is the real problem. to mesure just how much control. and I can understant the palestinians no one wants a forign country to mess with their affairs however its just a too much big risk too take. and not just simple as two states for two people.I wish it was. if we had assuranse that their will be no hostilites from the territories, completly then things will look like differently. but as it seems today. I really dont see the end of the conflict in the horizon.

before oslo the palestinians were completely under our control after oslo after we gave them weapons and dispite our agreements to abandon all armed conflicts. extrimist militant groups started to do suicide bombings. we cannot allow that much of indepents for the palestinians again without assuranse that theese actions wont happen again. we learnd our lesson.
trust must be gaind again in both sides in order for the peace proccess to continue

 

[justone]

what will russia will do if moskva will be under bombartmant for 8 years (my god i really dont want to imagine what will happned) .

You certainly don't

YouTube - The Sacred War [The Holy War] ????????? ?????

Any way thanks for cutting through the politically correct BS and getting to the essence. Stay here for a while because other Jews mostly care to show that they are nice and reasonable and forget about the essence,... and that nothing can convince hamas and Muslim terrorism supporters here.

 

[justone]

what would the us do if 4000 rockets will fell on washington? .

4000?

Speaking about consequences of 9/11, justone day.

 

[Arch Enemy]

first think first.
Menahem Begin was a lot more right wing then Ariel Sharon and Itzhak Shamir.
and he had accomplished the impossible.

Itzhak Shamir and ariel sharon are definetly right wing. but they are not terrorist.
Shamir was the commander of the Lehi wich were a defective group from the Irgun. one of the lehi act was the murder of Folke Bernadotte from the Swidish royal family. and the Lehi was recognized by the British Mandate as a terrorist group. all in all you must remmember that the British were in favour of the arabs and in many pogroms againsts the jews in the early 20th century the helped the arabs here for your view
1929 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, the Likud is acting for peace with the palestinans. and right now i belive that almost everyone in Israel agree that there should be a Palestinian State next to Israel.

May i remind you that Ariel Sharon is the one who did the disengagment plan?
here
Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wich was as we can see today a complete failure.

My problem is not with Likud it is with the coalition that Likud will put together; You cannot possibly believe Lieberman and his goons are not right-winged.

 

[justone]

My problem is not with Likud it is with the coalition that Likud will put together; You cannot possibly believe Lieberman and his goons are not right-winged.

Among all things I can belive to you would be the last one.

 

[Arch Enemy]

Among all things I can belive to you would be the last one.

You are damn right.

The blatant racism on behalf of Lieberman and his "Our Home" party sums up a pretty right-wing stance.

 

[justone]

You are damn right.

The blatant racism on behalf of Lieberman and his "Our Home" party sums up a pretty right-wing stance.

You don't really have to come up with another proof that you have nothing but a conspiracy theory to support your hatred and with another proof that you cannot be believed to.

I am not in Lieberman's distirct, but I am in CT and I do some work in his district - for rich liberals, - yet they did not allow loonatics to run over minimal common sense.

 

[Arch Enemy]

You don't really have to come up with another proof that you have nothing but a conspiracy theory to support your hatred and with another proof that you cannot be believed to.

I am not in Lieberman's distirct, but I am in CT and I do some work in his district - for rich liberals, - yet they did not allow loonatics to run over minimal common sense.

All I have to go on for Israeli politics are Israeli news sources:

There's no need to refer to Haaretz's startling revelation that Yisrael Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman was a member of Kahane's Kach party in his youth: This campaign's dark horse was and is a Kahanist. The differences between Kach and Yisrael Beiteinu are minuscule, not fundamental and certainly not a matter of morality. The differences are in tactical nuances: Lieberman calls for a fascist "test of loyalty" as a condition for granting citizenship to Israel's Arabs, while Kahane called for the unconditional annulment of their citizenship. One racist (Lieberman) calls for their transfer to the Palestinian state, the other (Kahane) called for their deportation.
Advertisement
Now the instigator of the new Israeli racism will apparently become the leader of a large party once again in the government. Benjamin Netanyahu has already pledged that Lieberman will be an "important minister" in his government. If someone like Lieberman were to join a government in Europe, Israel would sever ties with it. If anyone had predicted in Kahane's day that a pledge to turn his successor into an important minister would one day be considered an electoral asset here, they would have been told they were having a nightmare.
===========
Lieberman is the voice of the mob, and the mob craves hatred, vengeance and bloodshed. A useless war in which hundreds of children were killed was received here sympathetically, if not happily. The parties from the right and center have tried to disqualify the Arab parties; these lists are also excluded ahead of time in every political calculation. And Arab students cannot rent an apartment.

Maybe racist is not the term I should have used, but Ultra-Nationalist; almost an Israeli version of vanguard.

 

[gree0232]

“Israel must keep its interests.”

“Israel cannot allow that state to have a free [choice] in matters of army and foreign affairs”

1. Let’s talk about winning wars first. Right now, Israel is fighting a conflict that pits its weaknesses against its enemies (Hamas in this case). Hamas strengths are still not equal to Israeli weaknesses, it doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is by in large defining the battle field and refusing to fight outside it preset parameters. In order to fight Hamas, Israel must move into densely populated urban areas and engage in kind apoplectic house by house clearance, and then move into counter-insurgency warfare that will require it to garner enough local population to control the situation with the added bonus that these supporters would also have to be both capable and moral. The average time to ‘win’ a COIN fight is 10-15 years. It can easily go longer.

Once won, if possible, how long would it be before there were another Intifada demanding statehood? A single generation?

If Israel grants Palestinian Statehood, what happens? You have a standing government, public security services, uniformed combatants, and centers of gravity that are vulnerable to Israel’s strengths. Israel can defeat a standing Palestinian army in … let’s say six days shall we? After they are defeated, they can then accept terms like any other government that has fought and lost to Israel. After a time, even if they rabidly hate Israel, they would find a way to not get the living snot knocked out of them like other governments in the region have done.

The idea that Palestinian statehood is somehow bad for Israel’s security is something of a misnomer. The entire Arab world cannot defeat Israel, it is doubtful that a Palestinian state would change this balance (which is hardly at a tipping point to begin with).

2. If Lebanon with all its Iranian and Syrian interference can have its own foreign policy and military, why would Palestine not be able to have its own? In fact, if Palestine is to govern itself, it will need a security force. Without a security force, any time some whack job like Bin Laden wants to claim the mantel of ‘religion’ he sends a few guys and some weapons into Palestine, and viola, we have another terrorism problem. Only a locally raised security force that knows its community can prevent this from happening. Only a locally trained force loyal to the central government can prevent tribal influences from resorting to violence rather than systems to settle disputes or seek political advantage.

The Palestinians already have freedom of choice in foreign affairs, like taking consignments of rockets from Iran and Syria, like fundraising in Syria, like conducting negotiations through Egypt. Interestingly enough, the only area of foreign affairs that Israel seems hell bent on denying Palestine is the ability to negotiate and find agreements with Tel Aviv.

What you wrote will never be accepted by the Palestinians. It is not equal co-existence where the two parties are equal partners in government with separate cultural identities. The Palestinians still have no voice in the state that controls them and polices them with a foreign police force because it does not trust them or respect them enough to let them make decisions for themselves. As I said, the Palestinians are tired of their status as 2nd class non-citizens and terrorists. They want their own state (and I don’t blame them), and they will settle for nothing less.

The only real questions remaining now are, how long will it take and how many more people have to die to make it happen (how many of those will die needlessly)?

 

[G-Man]

G-Man,

Such a move would be shortsighted for three reasons:

1) There is no comparison between Likud (a right-of-center political party in Israel) and Hamas (a terrorist organization that carries out deliberate attacks on civilians)

Likud will not allow a sovereign Palestinian state to exist and Hamas will not allow a sovereign Israeli state to exist - seem pretty similar to me.

Hamas will not negotiate a final settlement with Israel and the Likud party has pledged to never reach a final settlement - seems similar again.

Members of Likud (such as Begin) were members of terrorist groups prior to the establishment of Israel - Hamas also uses terrorist activities to try and achieve its aim of a Palestinian state - another similarity.

And there are many more I am sure.

2) If the Palestinians are to achieve an arrangement that leads to a sovereign Palestinian state that would coexist with Israel, it will have to be achieved at the negotiating table. Terrorism is a dead-end.

Terrorism seemed to work quite well for the Irgun no?

And if Israel believes it cannot negotiate a settlement with Hamas because they refuse to allow an Israeli state to exist how can Palestinian groups be expected to negotiate with a Jewish group which refuses to allow the existance of a sovereign Palestinian state?

3) Attempting to isolate one of Israel's leading political parties (2nd largest number of seats in the Knesset) is a recipe for closing off negotiating paths. If the next Israeli government is formed with Binyamin Netanyahu becoming Prime Minister, efforts to isolate Likud would create a self-fulfilling prophecy in which the Palestinians lock themselves out of the negotiating process.

If the international community isolates Likud like it should do (having already isolated the Hamas government) then Israeli politics will be forced to change. Without US/International military loans (which are never asked to be re-paid) and financial assistance the state will not be able to function.

Interestingly why do you feel that isolating Hamas is not a recipe for closing off negotiating paths but isolating Likud is?

 

[gal]

“Israel must keep its interests.”

“Israel cannot allow that state to have a free [choice] in matters of army and foreign affairs”

1. Let’s talk about winning wars first. Right now, Israel is fighting a conflict that pits its weaknesses against its enemies (Hamas in this case). Hamas strengths are still not equal to Israeli weaknesses, it doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is by in large defining the battle field and refusing to fight outside it preset parameters. In order to fight Hamas, Israel must move into densely populated urban areas and engage in kind apoplectic house by house clearance, and then move into counter-insurgency warfare that will require it to garner enough local population to control the situation with the added bonus that these supporters would also have to be both capable and moral. The average time to ‘win’ a COIN fight is 10-15 years. It can easily go longer.

Once won, if possible, how long would it be before there were another Intifada demanding statehood? A single generation?

If Israel grants Palestinian Statehood, what happens? You have a standing government, public security services, uniformed combatants, and centers of gravity that are vulnerable to Israel’s strengths. Israel can defeat a standing Palestinian army in … let’s say six days shall we? After they are defeated, they can then accept terms like any other government that has fought and lost to Israel. After a time, even if they rabidly hate Israel, they would find a way to not get the living snot knocked out of them like other governments in the region have done.

The idea that Palestinian statehood is somehow bad for Israel’s security is something of a misnomer. The entire Arab world cannot defeat Israel, it is doubtful that a Palestinian state would change this balance (which is hardly at a tipping point to begin with).

2. If Lebanon with all its Iranian and Syrian interference can have its own foreign policy and military, why would Palestine not be able to have its own? In fact, if Palestine is to govern itself, it will need a security force. Without a security force, any time some whack job like Bin Laden wants to claim the mantel of ‘religion’ he sends a few guys and some weapons into Palestine, and viola, we have another terrorism problem. Only a locally raised security force that knows its community can prevent this from happening. Only a locally trained force loyal to the central government can prevent tribal influences from resorting to violence rather than systems to settle disputes or seek political advantage.

The Palestinians already have freedom of choice in foreign affairs, like taking consignments of rockets from Iran and Syria, like fundraising in Syria, like conducting negotiations through Egypt. Interestingly enough, the only area of foreign affairs that Israel seems hell bent on denying Palestine is the ability to negotiate and find agreements with Tel Aviv.

What you wrote will never be accepted by the Palestinians. It is not equal co-existence where the two parties are equal partners in government with separate cultural identities. The Palestinians still have no voice in the state that controls them and polices them with a foreign police force because it does not trust them or respect them enough to let them make decisions for themselves. As I said, the Palestinians are tired of their status as 2nd class non-citizens and terrorists. They want their own state (and I don’t blame them), and they will settle for nothing less.

The only real questions remaining now are, how long will it take and how many more people have to die to make it happen (how many of those will die needlessly)?

green:
ypur an optemist. I really wish things could have been this way. this entire conflict can be sovled only if both sides can trust each other. god I know that we aren't perfect. a bit of history. in 1993 PM Itzhak Rabin done the unthinkable the Oslo agreement, at that time it really looked like a good deal for most israelies. we will have to do some hard concession like giving Hebron Gaza and the territories to the Palestinian and they will give us peace. the first mistrust occured when the jihadic islam attacked in center Tel Aviv. but i think the graetest setback was the capture of Karin A smuggeling ship here are some pictures.
File:Karin A weapons.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this was just the tip of the ice. if osrael and the palestinians were in the mioddle of a peace proccess then why the hell did the stockpiled weapons?

bahh but this is a large issue.
right now the palestinians will never have an independent country you why? trust!.
you are saying the palestinians want peace? I agree. do you know who don't want peace? their leaders. maybe in a few years when trust will be gained then we will allow them an independent an independent state. dont forget, we are the occupying force, if giving the palenstinans an indepentent state means that this state will have an army that will challenge Israel then idont see a reason why to chancge the situation today! many more israelies and palestinians will die in a war between two armies! a palestinian state will be just 15miles from tel aviv! why should we give them that state that could threaten us like this?!

I agree that there should be a solution but the israelies must not be blinded by peace, peace in every price. I know its unjust for the palestininans but we really dont have an alternative. until they change their way, renowns armed struggle, stop smugglening disbanding illegale armed militias,
this are called trust building steps, then israel could allow itself to take the risks we took in 1992.

When I am saying no army I dont mean no police force that will stop extrimist group like Bil Laden. by the way thats issue is almost agreed by both sides

Just remember Israel cannot allow ourselves to make mistakes, its not as simple as "give them a state and if they attack conquere that state". that act will be iresponsible and stupid.

 

[bub]

Mahmoud Abbas has finally voiced what needs to be heard. Favoritism in international politics has to be dropped and whilst the world refuses to co-operate with Hamas it should adopt a similar stance to an Israeli political party which opposes the creation of a Palestinian state and does not want to negotiate a permanent settlement.

The fanatics of Likud are every bit as extreme as those on the Hamas side and they should be dealt with in exactly the same manner.

Abbas urges world to isolate Likud like it does Hamas - Haaretz - Israel News

They should rather boycott Israel if Lieberman gets some power, like they did with Austria & Haider

 

[justone]

All I have to go on for Israeli politics are Israeli news sources:



Maybe racist is not the term I should have used, but Ultra-Nationalist; almost an Israeli version of vanguard.

That is all my fault, - I jumped in and saw Lieberman, and I assumed that the talk was about Lieberman. I have no clue about Israeli politics and politicians, I assume that they have a sufficient amount of assses, -though I suspect – it shouldn’t be more than here. Sorry for confusion. And sorry that I have no clue to show you that you’re are wrong, - and if your are right it is an exclusion. My fault. ASSuming is ASSuming. It is not like I had to post this about myself, but what can I do...

 

[bub]

wow, so if what you are saying is true then every single right ideologicaly party should be disbanded. including the conservatives in england and the republicans in the US. The Likud are not extremists. period.
here is the manifest of the likud manifesto
áçéøåú ìëðñú ä-16 - îöò äìéëåã
i didnt find any translation but in the manifesto what it says about the palestinians is

הסדר הקבע
מטרות-העל להסדרי הקבע עם הפלשתינאים: סיום הסכסוך בין ישראל לפלשתינאים
על בסיס מוסכם, יציב ובר-קימא, והמרת יחסי העימות בשיתוף פעולה ובשכנות טובה, תוך שמירת האינטרסים החיוניים של ישראל כמדינה ציונית ויהודית בטוחה ומשגשגת. ממשלת הליכוד תכבד את כל ההסכמים הבינלאומיים שנחתמו ע"י קודמותיה ותחתור להשגתו של הסדר קבע עם הפלשתינים. הסדר הקבע יביא לצמצום הסכנות הביטחוניות הנגזרות מהסכמי "אוסלו" ובראשן הסכנה הטמונה בקיומם העכשווי ובאפשרות התרחבותם בעתיד, של כוחות פלשתינים קלים, בהיקף של 3 אוגדות חי"ר, הממוקמות בקירבה מיידית למרכזי האוכלוסייה, השלטון, העורף הישראלי, למחסני החירום ולשטחי ההערכות של צה"ל. ההסדר יהיה מושתת על העקרונות הבאים:
מדינת ישראל לא תאפשר הקמת מדינה ערבית פלשתינאית ממערב לירדן. הפלשתינאים יוכלו לנהל באורח חופשי את חייהם במסגרת של ממשל עצמי ולא של מדינה ריבונית ועצמאית. כך למשל, פעולתם בנושאי חוץ ביטחון הגירה ואקולוגיה תוגבל בהתאם לאילוצים הנובעים מהצרכים הקיומיים, הביטחוניים והלאומיים של ישראל.
peace treaty:
the main goal for peace treaty with the palestinians is:
ending the conflict with the palestinians on a concrete agreement, stable and relevant, and exchanging the conflict with coporation and good neigboring, while keeping the vital interests of israel as a jewish zionist sate. the Likud government will honour all previous agreement and will try and reach a peace agreement.

Indepentent government
the state of israel will not allow an arab palestinian state west of the jordan river. the palestinian will allow to conduct their lifstyle freely as they desire under their own administration but not as an indepentent state:

and more bla bla bla

so mainly the Likud is interested in the ending of the armed conflict.

ill write more later

= the Likud wants to annex the whole West bank
= what remains of Palestine? Gaza????

 

[Voidwar]

Moral Equivocation only works on an audience that cares about "fair".

I no longer care about treating the denizens of Gaza with "fairness".

Once that is the case, we do not have to worry about being "no better than they are". What if I just don't care who's "better", and I've chosen my side, and I want the other side dead. Do you think attempts to use guilt and moral equivocation get you anywhere then ? No treatment is too harsh for those one wants dead.

 

[gal]

= the Likud wants to annex the whole West bank
= what remains of Palestine? Gaza????

As I said the Likud and Israel doesnt want to annex anyone. just at this stage when terror rules no palestinian state will rise. what will be is an independent palestininan government in the territories.

 

[SgtRock]

I agree. The Likuid coalition will be a terribly far-right, so close to Fascism that it would be really hard not to label it as such.

However, sanctions are so stupid and primitive; this isn't the middle-ages you just cannot starve an establishment anymore.
I mean, jesus, Iran built a satellite.

Jesus helped Iran build a satellite?

 

[bub]

As I said the Likud and Israel doesnt want to annex anyone. just at this stage when terror rules no palestinian state will rise. what will be is an independent palestininan government in the territories.

"what will be is an independent palestininan government in the territories" >< "israel will not allow an arab palestinian state west of the jordan river" !!!

 

[gree0232]

"green:
your an optimist."

Gal:
Yes I am.

However, I have pretty good reasons for being an optimist.

1. It's good leadership. You need people in charge that will constantly find solutions for problems, even when those problems seem overwhelming. As an infantryman, would anyone follow me into battle if every obstacle was insurmountable? "Oh, they have a machine gun, back to the barracks," vs. "Here's how we are going to take that thing out."

2. No two situations are ever identical. You know how soldiers think. We set an endstate, and then figure out how to get there. Israel and the world are no longer in 1967. The conditions are very different these days on both the battlefield and in the political land scape. The question is how best to harness the opportnities the current environment provides while avoiding its pitfalls.

A good leader will find and exploit these opportunites, a bad leader will pretend it is still 1967. I like to at least sometimes pretend I am the former

 

[gal]

gree

That is Exactly the problam, the world is in 2009, after the yom kipur war Egypt accepted the face that there is a jewish zionist state in Israel they grew up didnt live in the past. however the Palestinians belive that a great injustice occurered to them and that injustice is the creation of the state of Israel when an arab feel that someone hurt him he will want to hurt you back. vendetta is very common in this part of the world. both of our coltures value many different things. they honour death over life. the glory of being dead in heaven with 72 virgins and so on. so its like a sick game here they kill us we respond.

the answer and the right path can only be found through negotiations. (in another thread I already posted the problems in negotioation) of course what i am talking about is only for fatah. talking with hammas is not an option (many reasons, maybe I will write them sometime). but with fatah the problem is that the legitimacy of abo alla in the palestinian street isnt that strong. so there isnt any parter for peace, the palestininan has to have a strong leader who can represent them in order to make peace with him. but as you probably know this is very diffecult in a clan society. many leaders but not one to stand out of the other

 

[Laila]

gree

That is Exactly the problam, the world is in 2009, after the yom kipur war Egypt accepted the face that there is a jewish zionist state in Israel they grew up didnt live in the past. however the Palestinians belive that a great injustice occurered to them and that injustice is the creation of the state of Israel when an arab feel that someone hurt him he will want to hurt you back. vendetta is very common in this part of the world. both of our coltures value many different things. they honour death over life. the glory of being dead in heaven with 72 virgins and so on. so its like a sick game here they kill us we respond.

No such thing as 72 virgins

You don't think Palestinians have a right to be angry? The only reason Israel came into existence was because Europeans were feeling guilty and pity for the Holocaust and as a result of european action, Arabs paid the price.The last remenents of colonialism.

 

[gal]

No such thing as 72 virgins

You don't think Palestinians have a right to be angry? The only reason Israel came into existence was because Europeans were feeling guilty and pity for the Holocaust and as a result of european action, Arabs paid the price.The last remenents of colonialism.

the hebrew colonization started much earlier then 1948. with the approval of the turkish.

what is your solution then? becuse it is quit clearly that we are going to stay here too.

 

[Laila]

the hebrew colonization started much earlier then 1948. with the approval of the turkish.

what is your solution then? becuse it is quit clearly that we are going to stay here too.

Yes, Arabs jews have always lived in Palestine/Israel, But you acknowledge the role the genocide played in helping create a jewish state yes?

Me personally?
I support the 2 state solution but i'd rather it was 1 state. But seeing the Jewish want a jewish only state - kinda makes 1 state impossible
I think Palesinians should get Al Asqa and Jews WW.

 

[gal]

Yes, Arabs jews have always lived in Palestine/Israel, But you acknowledge the role the genocide played in helping create a jewish state yes?

Me personally?
I support the 2 state solution but i'd rather it was 1 state. But seeing the Jewish want a jewish only state - kinda makes 1 state impossible
I think Palesinians should get Al Asqa and Jews WW.

Of course the holocoust had a very important role in the creation of Israel we teach our children that at school. but that such a wide issue to disscuss.

as I was saying it is almost agreed by all sides left and most of the right that the Palestinian should have there own country.

The armed resistance only makes the establishment of a palestininan state less popular here in Israel. and as greater the resistant is more people will try to deny it happned.

In 1992 most people in Israel leaned to left and after the Oslo agreemets we really felt that peace is just out of reach. after the second intifada many Israelies belived, including myself. that there must not be a palestininan state along side Israel not until the Palestinians will stop armed resistance.

we cannot take the risk of giving territories back, evacuating illegle settelments. all of that just to get an enemy that will be a hundred times stronger then it is now and all of its agendas is to get the entire land of Israel, all of Jerusalem. like the are saying publicly