A World without Religion?

[Djoop]

Flemish anatomist Andreas Vesalius's life typically shows both the new possibilities and the troubles that came with them. He delivered ground-breaking work in rediscovering the human body, after centuries of disregard for it. This earned him great respect from some, but also caused several enquiries into his methods (dissection of the human body) and the religious implications of his work.

While Vesalius performed ground-breaking work in rediscovering the human body, Gerardus Mercator, as one of the leading cartographers of his time, did the same for rediscovering the outside world. Mercator too came into trouble with the Church because of his beliefs, and spent several months in jail after a conviction for heresy. Both scientists' lives show how the Renaissance scientist is not afraid of challenging what has been taken for granted for centuries, and how this leads to problems with the all-powerful catholic church.

 

[Black Dog]

I'm pretty sure people got burned at the stake. In fact Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for promoting a sun as center of the solar system and being but a star.

He was burned at the stake for ...

holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass; claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity; believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes, and; dealing in magics and divination.

Had nothing at all to do with real science.

 

[Ikari]

He was burned at the stake for ...

holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass; claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity; believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes, and; dealing in magics and divination.

Had nothing at all to do with real science.

Yeah....OK. :roll:

 

[Djoop]

He was burned at the stake for ...

holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass; claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity; believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes, and; dealing in magics and divination.

Had nothing at all to do with real science.

Yes, false charges. I hope you realise the RC church has apologised for it.

 

[Black Dog]

Yeah....OK. :roll:

facts hurt don't they.

 

[Ikari]

Yes, false charges. I hope you realise the RC church has apologised for it.

What are you talking about? The Church never killed anyone ever, particularly for scientific conclusions.

 

[Ikari]

facts hurt don't they.

Yeah, the fact that your best deflection against theistic aggression is that they killed because someone didn't like their religion instead of having said something scientific. But that's all propaganda, because most of those charges weren't brought up till after the scientific theories come out. Then they go and make something up so they can kill a man for his ideas.

 

[Djoop]

What are you talking about? The Church never killed anyone ever, particularly for scientific conclusions.

They didn't have dna back then.

 

[Black Dog]

Yes, false charges. I hope you realise the RC church has apologised for it.

Not really...

In the years since Bruno's execution, the Vatican has published few official statements about the matter. In 1942, Cardinal Giovanni Mercati, who discovered a number of lost documents relating to Bruno's trial, stated that the Church was perfectly justified in condemning him. On the 400th anniversary of Bruno's death, in 2000, Cardinal Angelo Sodano declared Bruno's death to be a "sad episode" but, despite his regret, he defended Bruno's prosecutors, maintaining that the Inquisitors "had the desire to serve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life."[26] - Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The numerous charges against Bruno, based on some of his books as well as on witness accounts, included blasphemy, immoral conduct, and heresy in matters of dogmatic theology, and involved some of the basic doctrines of his philosophy and cosmology. - Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Black Dog]

Yeah, the fact that your best deflection against theistic aggression is that they killed because someone didn't like their religion instead of having said something scientific. But that's all propaganda, because most of those charges weren't brought up till after the scientific theories come out. Then they go and make something up so they can kill a man for his ideas.

I am not, and was not making any statement about theistic aggression. I was talking about religion as a whole and it's donations to science. You then jumped on the lets bash Christians wagon. Then you accused me of being a liar which I have debunked as my statements are true and backed up by evidence.

No on has denied in any way the bad things religion has done. The fact is though, it has also done allot of good. When mentioning the good you don't have to go over every bad thing religions have done every time. So that people like you can't call it propaganda.

 

[Djoop]

We have arrived on the 400th anniversary of the roasting of Giordano Bruno. For the past few days, everyone in Italy with a beef against the Catholic Church has been using our piazza to express it. Atheists, pantheists, and freethinkers have erected booths. They pass out literature and give microphones to anyone who wishes to speak out against the past evils of the Catholic Church. What's strange about this, first, is that the higher-ups in the Catholic Church no longer disagree with them. The current pope seems intent, before he dies, on apologizing for every heretic burnt by his predecessors. A few days ago, a cardinal at the Vatican mumbled an apology for murdering Giordano Bruno.

 

[Black Dog]

We have arrived on the 400th anniversary of the roasting of Giordano Bruno. For the past few days, everyone in Italy with a beef against the Catholic Church has been using our piazza to express it. Atheists, pantheists, and freethinkers have erected booths. They pass out literature and give microphones to anyone who wishes to speak out against the past evils of the Catholic Church. What's strange about this, first, is that the higher-ups in the Catholic Church no longer disagree with them. The current pope seems intent, before he dies, on apologizing for every heretic burnt by his predecessors. A few days ago, a cardinal at the Vatican mumbled an apology for murdering Giordano Bruno.

And I am supposed to except this as fact because?

 

[Djoop]

And I am supposed to except this as fact because?

Not for my amusement. I assume the Vatican will keep apologising for the Inquisition. They;d better. It drenched European soil in blood, and filled your continent with refugees. Not a good environment for opposing thoughts and thus rather destructive to science.

 

[joko104]

There was a comment by Hitchens once where he said he'd never try to stamp out religion, and he said when Richard Dawkins heard that (they were talking) Hitchens never forgot the face he made. (This instance was in a movie documenting the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Pastor Douglas Wilson—the DVD was titled Collision.)

So, that got me thinking. What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

As religion loses power, the government fills the gap. It is amazing how may people now talk about government and laws like they are talk about God and God's rules, for which breaking those rules/laws is inherently considered wrongful as in evil. To may, proving something is "against the law" means the person was acting in morally wrong way.

From what little I understand of governments and histories - at the two extremes of controlling theocratic government and controlling atheistic government there is very little difference in lacking human rights.

Religion is curious in that such people put a set of laws above the laws of government and even social norms.

 

[Black Dog]

Not for my amusement. I assume the Vatican will keep apologising for the Inquisition. They;d better. It drenched European soil in blood, and filled your continent with refugees. Not a good environment for opposing thoughts and thus rather destructive to science.

In other words you were wrong and had nothing to add.

Thanks.

 

[Surtr]

What would the world be like if there weren't any religions at all? What do you think?

Relatively the same.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Yeah, but is that because of good "christian" values or because we were just better at war?

Couldn't it be a bit of both?

 

[Ikari]

Couldn't it be a bit of both?

It could perhaps be from both.

 

[Sig]

 

[Djoop]

In other words you were wrong and had nothing to add.

Thanks.

Nah, you didnt even know they apologised for the whole of the Inquisition as well as the murder of Giordano Bruno. But I guess you want to make sure everyone knows. Well done!

 

[Black Dog]

Nah, you didnt even know they apologised for the whole of the Inquisition as well as the murder of Giordano Bruno. But I guess you want to make sure everyone knows. Well done!

I mean I am not Catholic to begin with, so I don't care all that much. However them apologizing has nothing to do with what actually happened. They did not in any way apologies for burning Bruno according to anything I have read so far. In fact they defended the prosecutors as I showed not once, but twice. You have not produced a single reputable shred of evidence, nothing.

With recently released Vatican records we do know the time and more importantly scale of the Inquisitions were more hyperbole than truth...

"The opposite is true. They affirm the conclusions of recent academic studies that show the torture chambers, witch-burning, and vindictive power-crazed churchmen were nonexistent, part of the “black legend” invented by the Protestants, emphasized by partisans of the French Revolution, and broadly spread throughout Europe and the United States. - Another papal apology for the Inquisition

In the end it does not matter as it has literally nothing to do with religions contributions to science. Your whole primes is nothing more then a big red herring. With even less evidence.

 

[Djoop]

I mean I am not Catholic to begin with, so I don't care all that much. However them apologizing has nothing to do with what actually happened. They did not in any way apologies for burning Bruno according to anything I have read so far. In fact they defended the prosecutors as I showed not once, but twice. You have not produced a single reputable shred of evidence, nothing.

With recently released Vatican records we do know the time and more importantly scale of the Inquisitions were more hyperbole than truth...

"The opposite is true. They affirm the conclusions of recent academic studies that show the torture chambers, witch-burning, and vindictive power-crazed churchmen were nonexistent, part of the “black legend” invented by the Protestants, emphasized by partisans of the French Revolution, and broadly spread throughout Europe and the United States. - Another papal apology for the Inquisition

In the end it does not matter as it has literally nothing to do with religions contributions to science. Your whole primes is nothing more then a big red herring. With even less evidence.

Who are ‘we’, Jerry Falwell´s pseudo science club?

You must have forgotten how this discussion started a few posts ago. I gave you two examples of scientists who were persecuted by the Church, who made discoveries despite of religion. So far you've only made a rather foolish attempt to justify Bruno's murder. But even if you would be right about Bruno, you'd still have all the work left ahead of you. Because he’s only one of many persecuted scientists. I gave two examples, there are hundreds, and a 13 yr old could have known that simply by paying attention in school.

To avoid admitting your small mistake, you made things worse by suggesting that the Vatican didn’t apologize for the evils of the Inquisition. Which, according to you now, are made up by the enemies of the Church. It just keeps getting worse. You want a shovel?

List of apologies made by Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* The Church's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation (May 1995, in the Czech Republic).

I'm always willing to discuss these subjects, or to clarify my position, but I have no desire to be your tutor. I will have none of your baseless accusations. It's not worth my time.

 

[Black Dog]

Who are ‘we’, Jerry Falwell´s pseudo science club?

Personal attacks are the resort of someone who has no argument, lol.

You must have forgotten how this discussion started a few posts ago. I gave you two examples of scientists who were persecuted by the Church, who made discoveries despite of religion. So far you've only made a rather foolish attempt to justify Bruno's murder. But even if you would be right about Bruno, you'd still have all the work left ahead of you. Because he’s only one of many persecuted scientists. I gave two examples, there are hundreds, and a 13 yr old could have known that simply by paying attention in school.

I have forgotten nothing. Your strawman was noted and proved wrong.

Now we are up to hundreds huh? Already proved you wrong on Bruno, and come back for more? Please post some evidence of the "hundreds" of persecuted scientists. Until then it is just another unfortunate exaggeration like the rest.

To avoid admitting your small mistake, you made things worse by suggesting that the Vatican didn’t apologize for the evils of the Inquisition. Which, according to you now, are made up by the enemies of the Church. It just keeps getting worse. You want a shovel?

Please point out where I suggested such nonsense? I said specifically they did not apologies for Bruno, nothing beyond that. So please point it out.

List of apologies made by Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* The Church's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation (May 1995, in the Czech Republic).

#1 I never said anything about the church not apologizing in other than the case of Bruno.
#2 The religious wars in the Czech Republic were Protestants vs Catholics and had nothing to do with science???
#3 This again has absolutely nothing to do with religions contributions to science and is again just a red herring.

I'm always willing to discuss these subjects, or to clarify my position, but I have no desire to be your tutor. I will have none of your baseless accusations. It's not worth my time.

In other words you have been schooled yet again and resort to personal attacks and fallacy's. Got ya.

 

[German guy]

That's not true. It was a leader in science that it believed in, accepted, and thought did not contradict the bible. Science outside of that was condemned, violently and murderously so, for some time. Religion totally coming into science wasn't something that really began until the theocracies of old started to die. And even now they don't fully accept everything, and I wonder if society had not changed such that burning people at the stake was bad, how many creationists would be calling for such for the evolutionists. A non-zero number likely.

I'd say that every religion was progress at some point in history (Christianity refined antique morals and ethics, and Islam did not just elevate the brute barbarians in Arabia to civilization, but even made their science skyrocket), until it had outlived its purpose, and its followers (especially the authorities abusing the respective religion such as the Catholic church) lost their true spirituality and made their religion petrify to empty rituals, authority structures and means to preserve power.

 

[head of joaquin]

I'd say that every religion was progress at some point in history (Christianity refined antique morals and ethics, and Islam did not just elevate the brute barbarians in Arabia to civilization, but even made their science skyrocket), until it had outlived its purpose, and its followers (especially the authorities abusing the respective religion such as the Catholic church) lost their true spirituality and made their religion petrify to empty rituals, authority structures and means to preserve power.

Well put. The progress of societies is complex, involving religious, political, cultural, ideological and other components interacting in complex way. Christainity (or Islam or Judaism or Confusionism) in one period and context, may be productive and it may be reactionary in another.

Thus early Islam preserved a great deal of ancient learning from the Greco-Roman world that was lost to European Christianity, but political Islam in the 21st century finds itself supporting reactionary policies against women and other minorities. Christianity in the 12th century inspired an early Renaissance in philosophy and science; in the 1Enlightenmen it reacted in reactionary and counterproductive ways to scientific discovery.

Simplistic statements about religion being good or bad are almost meaningless out of historical context.