• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

A wonderful Article

Technocratic_Utilitarian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
670
Reaction score
0
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
My Hero

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings.
The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God” should be obliged to present evidence for his existence -- and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm “of biblical proportions” would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. And yet, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence: their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.
 

ddoyle00

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
246
Reaction score
0
Location
3000 miles east of you
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
You know Techno, the definition of atheist is flawed from the beginning. In the Oxford Englsih Dictionary, an atheist is desc. as one who has no belief in God. Not a god. God. The def. was written by theist, so as not to empower a theist I desc. myself as a secular humanist. I unfortunatley live in the south where grown men attend classes sponsored by their church on how to spot witches and they are encouraged to disbelieve in dinosuars and that we were ever on the moon. I like to use Eip's riddle and when asked to explain it, they always say "free will". Free will, huh? So a theist will say god is all-powerfull and all-knowing, therefore he knows when you were born and when you will die. He knows everything that will happen in between. He knows your lifeline to the exact second you will die and they call that free will? Like they can juke fast enough to throw off god and do something he isnt ready for? No, if you say he is all powerful and knowing, you have no free will.
 

MrFungus420

Legend in my own mind!
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,018
Reaction score
345
Location
Midland, MI
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
ddoyle00 said:
You know Techno, the definition of atheist is flawed from the beginning. In the Oxford Englsih Dictionary, an atheist is desc. as one who has no belief in God. Not a god. God. The def. was written by theist, so as not to empower a theist I desc. myself as a secular humanist. I unfortunatley live in the south where grown men attend classes sponsored by their church on how to spot witches and they are encouraged to disbelieve in dinosuars and that we were ever on the moon. I like to use Eip's riddle and when asked to explain it, they always say "free will". Free will, huh? So a theist will say god is all-powerfull and all-knowing, therefore he knows when you were born and when you will die. He knows everything that will happen in between. He knows your lifeline to the exact second you will die and they call that free will? Like they can juke fast enough to throw off god and do something he isnt ready for? No, if you say he is all powerful and knowing, you have no free will.
That's interesting. I've got The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary of the English Language, Encyclopedic Edition, and it has the same definition of "atheist". What I find truly interesting is that the definition of "theism" is "the belief in a god or gods, esp. belief in the one God who created the rules of the universe." So, theism is just the belief in a diety or dieties, but atheism is restricted to not having a belief in God.

I think the definition from www.thefreedictionary.com is better: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

But, even so, I have a problem with these definitions. I've heard the terms tacit and declarative atheism, and I like those best. A declarative atheist states that there is no god, and that takes just as much faith as to state that there is a god. A tacit atheist says that they don't believe in a god, because they have seen nothing to make them think that there is one.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

ddoyle00 said:
You know Techno, the definition of atheist is flawed from the beginning. In the Oxford Englsih Dictionary, an atheist is desc. as one who has no belief in God. Not a god. God. The def. was written by theist, so as not to empower a theist I desc. myself as a secular humanist. I unfortunatley live in the south where grown men attend classes sponsored by their church on how to spot witches and they are encouraged to disbelieve in dinosuars and that we were ever on the moon. I like to use Eip's riddle and when asked to explain it, they always say "free will". Free will, huh? So a theist will say god is all-powerfull and all-knowing, therefore he knows when you were born and when you will die. He knows everything that will happen in between. He knows your lifeline to the exact second you will die and they call that free will? Like they can juke fast enough to throw off god and do something he isnt ready for? No, if you say he is all powerful and knowing, you have no free will.
just because he knows, doesn't mean we are his puppets or that he controls what we will do, just that he knows...nothing more or less....

and in reference to the article...more specifiaclly about human suffering and death...ok honestly...only so many people can fit on thsi earth and if God let everyone live...how comfertable will YOU be? heh, exactly
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
670
Reaction score
0
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
just because he knows, doesn't mean we are his puppets or that he controls what we will do, just that he knows...nothing more or less....

and in reference to the article...more specifiaclly about human suffering and death...ok honestly...only so many people can fit on thsi earth and if God let everyone live...how comfertable will YOU be? heh, exactly
So you are suggesting God kills hoards of people to limit the population, instead of simply asking people not to produce so many kids? Nice. One more reason God's an asshole.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
So you are suggesting God kills hoards of people to limit the population, instead of simply asking people not to produce so many kids? Nice. One more reason God's an asshole.
Wrong, I figured since it was you that posted this article, that a biblical answer is apparently something you wouldn't bother paying attention to nor care for,clearly you have already hardend your heart, so why should i take my time telling you about someone you don't care to know about? You already decided.
so i gave you a pratical one....an answer of 'reason' as you claim that atheist are.
plus its not me that needs to work on your heart and mind, its the Lord's place to do that.
 
Last edited:

Canuck

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
849
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
My Hero

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings.
The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God” should be obliged to present evidence for his existence -- and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm “of biblical proportions” would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. And yet, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence: their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.


very nice article
just the same
 
Last edited:

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
So you are suggesting God kills hoards of people to limit the population, instead of simply asking people not to produce so many kids? Nice. One more reason God's an asshole.
HOW CAN HE ASK PEOPLE NOT TO REPRODUCE? Do you think about what you say? He gave us free will and he doesn't just suddenly appear on Larry King every Friday night and say,

"Hey guys, it's God. Listen, can you please not reproduce anymore cause like, you know, the world's getting pretty darn crowded. Ok? Thanks. Back to you, Larry."
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
670
Reaction score
0
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
HOW CAN HE ASK PEOPLE NOT TO REPRODUCE? Do you think about what you say? He gave us free will and he doesn't just suddenly appear on Larry King every Friday night and say,

"Hey guys, it's God. Listen, can you please not reproduce anymore cause like, you know, the world's getting pretty darn crowded. Ok? Thanks. Back to you, Larry."
Yes. I do think about what I say, which ends up bringing the other opinions around me into a reductio ad absurdum. The previous guy said god kills people to limit population, but at the same time, you are saying God wants reproduction. Thats silly.

If God can take the time to send a monsoon to kill people to limit population, he can surely take time from his infinite existence to come down, have a cup of joe, and ask you nicely.
 

ddoyle00

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
246
Reaction score
0
Location
3000 miles east of you
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Imagine Teen, if you can, your life as a dvd. It has a start, a middle, and an ending. When you start the movie, you can rewind or fastforward to the end. But no matter how you watch it, the ending is always going to be the same. You have control over how you watch the movie, but you dont have control over the ending or what takes place in the middle.
The director (your god) has already directed and filmed that movie and sent it to Best Buy (earth) so other ppl. can enjoy it (live your life). Do you get it now? Your sense of free will is an illusion that has already been written. You are nothing beter than a marionette on a string dancing for a sick sick being.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

i voiced my opinion and i and what you say isn't going to sway me, I am a living witness to my God's loving exsistence in my life...and again...Techno read my second post if you will.
Plainly, i don't have to defend God...he does fine on his own...he gives you the choice to choose him...i think your the one living an illusion, one the devil has put on you, and clearly youve made it your own.
I'm usually choose to avoid these ttypes of thread, but for some reason i just couldn't ignroe this one.
It really hurts me to see how sheilded you are from the true living God, i can only pray that God will un-harden your heart...so you can experience life for what it truly is, walking in the light of teh Lord....my life has never been so happy, sure i get down at times, but i just spend time with the Lord...1..2 hours...and 'just be still and know that He is God'(Psalm 46:10)...its amazing
I feel really sorry for the ones who don't have the joy I have, and pray that they soon will, and if God willing, i could help.
 

ddoyle00

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
246
Reaction score
0
Location
3000 miles east of you
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Heh, I am actually getting some use from my logic class. Ok, Mr. Teen here we go. You say you dont have to defend god, he does fine on his own, etc, etc. What you are babbling about is a circular arguement. Your premises are all wrong. You say your god is real (a best guess or an assumption) and to prove your guess, you point out life and from that you draw your conclusion. That your god is real. Do you see what a shaky foundation your faith is based on? Ive only been posting for ehh, two days and I will tell you one thing Ive noticed:that the ppl. who are atheists are not going to be swayed by an emotional arguement. And the only way my heart will un harden is if i stop eating those monster burgers from Hardees.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

ddoyle00 said:
Heh, I am actually getting some use from my logic class. Ok, Mr. Teen here we go. You say you dont have to defend god, he does fine on his own, etc, etc. What you are babbling about is a circular arguement. Your premises are all wrong. You say your god is real (a best guess or an assumption) and to prove your guess, you point out life and from that you draw your conclusion. That your god is real. Do you see what a shaky foundation your faith is based on? Ive only been posting for ehh, two days and I will tell you one thing Ive noticed:that the ppl. who are atheists are not going to be swayed by an emotional arguement.
Well first, I'm not trying to sway anyone here...I'm letting YOU people know that what you say won't sway me and why.
like the song says 'hehe...you can't take my joy devil...'

And the only way my heart will un harden is if i stop eating those monster burgers from Hardees.
:bright: hehe...thats what you think.
youll be in my prayers.:cool:
 

ddoyle00

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
246
Reaction score
0
Location
3000 miles east of you
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
youll be in my prayers.:cool:[/QUOTE]


Do me a favor and write those prayers on a $20 and mail them to me. I will get more use out of them.
 

ngdawg

conliberaservatarianist
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,149
Reaction score
24
Location
trackside
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
:rofl :rofl

I think you might have hit on an idea for a new evangelical tv show:
"Pray for us Atheists" .
Yes, Brethren, we are atheists, but with YOUR help..maybe, just MAYBE we can change..Yes!!! Just write your prayer for our ever-hardening hearts on a $20 bill....send it to our home.....
Now, you would not be lying, because you will be changing...your small house for a big one...your old car for a new one....;)
Keeping in mind that Teen is but a 15 year old girl just trying to find her way, I must say to her, "Honey, you are out of your league here"....
 
T

teenonfire4him77

ngdawg said:
:rofl :rofl

I think you might have hit on an idea for a new evangelical tv show:
"Pray for us Atheists" .
Yes, Brethren, we are atheists, but with YOUR help..maybe, just MAYBE we can change..Yes!!! Just write your prayer for our ever-hardening hearts on a $20 bill....send it to our home.....
Now, you would not be lying, because you will be changing...your small house for a big one...your old car for a new one....;)
Keeping in mind that Teen is but a 15 year old girl just trying to find her way, I must say to her, "Honey, you are out of your league here"....
I have found my way, in Jesus.
Who are you to say what league i am in or out of? Certainly not you or anyone else here on this board.
I am perfectly capable of knowing what I can and can't handle.
Don't you dare use my age to take credibility away from my posts.
If you don't have anything relevent and useful to add to this discussion, then don't post at all.
 

Maxmillian

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
God exists because it says so in the bible. Man, you're going to hell. [/sarcasm]

First things first: awesome article. That pretty much sums it up.

Second, why do you cling onto religion like a life preserver? Religion causes more suffering than anything else out there. Ever seen anyone out there shoot each other because of differing views on atheism?

In fact, I wrote an article about this awhile ago. I hope you enjoy it; I sure didn't:

"First, what do you base all of your claims on?

You say god created this, a virgin gave birth, two of every species was put on a ship by an 800 year old guy, and the entire world was covered by water, but what proof do you have? You try and poke holes in evolutionist theories, and you make all these claims right out of the Bible, with guys in pointy hats, but in the end, that’s all you have; a book. “I’m going to heaven. How do I know? A book with no scientific relevance tells me” There’s absolutely no concrete proof that this all-powerful being even exists, except a book written thousands of years ago with no reference to any place in the world other than the middle east. You say the “evolution is implausible”, “your claims can’t be proven”, etc. That all leaves questions, why did god put fossils on earth? For fun? Some things in the evolutionist theory aren’t proven and never will be, but that’s a helluva lot better than religion can say.

When is the last time a government or military decision was not based on religion?

Probably not since religion didn’t exist. The separation of church and state is the best idea since..... Okay, it’s the best idea ever. The last time the church had absolute power, great minds like Galileo was under house-arrest by the Inquisition, and alchemy was banned. In short, science and free literature was at a crawl, if not a complete standstill. And it’s happening now. Stem cell research, genetic research, speaking out against the church, even regular science is under attack. When most of these religions were created, the world didn’t know a whole lot about the world. They thought 5 elements existed, so what do they do? They say a divine entity made it all, because they couldn’t find a better answer. Now that we’re probing deeper into the fabric of the universe, we’re uncovering things that we were previously ignorant of. Now that were have more information, we’re beginning to around more facts in opposition of religion, those who “believe” get panicky that they’re answer to everything might not be the right answer. The problem is, most (99%) of the religious people out there were told all these things when they were defenseless, malleable children. I used to be a Catholic, but then I turned 11.

Science > Religion.

When is the last time a disease was cured by a simple prayer? Was penicillin created from the ether? Did Sir Rutherford discover the nucleus by putting his hands together? Science has benefitted the world much more than religion. Has there ever been a war started over a scientific discovery? Religion causes more wars than anything out there. The 9/11 attacks were spawned out of religion. People say religion helps by giving people hope, but, then again, it’s false hope, so does it really benefit humanity that much?

Religion has been bringing out the big guns on science, mostly because most scientists are atheist. Don't believe me? Look for yourself:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
One guy I talked to said that 60% of all doctors disapprove evolutionism (the actual number turned out to be a lot lower, but bear with me). Yes, but this is flawed because doctors view not only the most complex organism of all, but only the end result, not the steps up to it.

Here's a good theory I JUST came up with, unless it's somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure I didn't read it anywhere.

Toy poodles.

Damn right, toy poodles. These little *****s couldn't survive for a minute in the wild. They couldn't have been created by God, their species would be wiped out immeadiatly. That's because people selectively bred these hellions, the same process evolution utilizes. If people, that horribly inept species that can't get two deutrium atoms to fuse and start a chain reaction, created poodles, so why can't nature manipulate and change species to that extent? if we had a couple thousand years to change wolves into ankle-biters, surely the great mechanism of Nature can create us in a few short milliards (milliard=billion years)
 
Last edited:

ngdawg

conliberaservatarianist
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,149
Reaction score
24
Location
trackside
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Don't know why you didn't enjoy it-I did, actually. (Love the line 'I used to be Catholic-then I turned 11').
To Teen: I will bring up the age issue is this instance because it is relevant. You have a limited life experience. Decisions made are based on that very limited life experience. At some point in your time, you will see illness and death, hard times, wonderful times, and all will require some hard thinking and hard choices. And with them come responsibilities, something most if not all teenagers don't have a lot of. (and I don't mean cooking dinner or walking the dog). You have lived less of a life than a 20 year old who has lived less of one than a 50 year old and things change continuously.
Your beliefs may work for you now, which is fine, if they keep you truly as a charitable, accepting and loving person. Judging by your response, they do not.
 
T

teenonfire4him77

Maxmillian said:
God exists because it says so in the bible. Man, you're going to hell. [/sarcasm]

First things first: awesome article. That pretty much sums it up.

Second, why do you cling onto religion like a life preserver? Religion causes more suffering than anything else out there. Ever seen anyone out there shoot each other because of differing views on atheism?

In fact, I wrote an article about this awhile ago. I hope you enjoy it; I sure didn't:

"First, what do you base all of your claims on?

You say god created this, a virgin gave birth, two of every species was put on a ship by an 800 year old guy, and the entire world was covered by water, but what proof do you have? You try and poke holes in evolutionist theories, and you make all these claims right out of the Bible, with guys in pointy hats, but in the end, that’s all you have; a book. “I’m going to heaven. How do I know? A book with no scientific relevance tells me” There’s absolutely no concrete proof that this all-powerful being even exists, except a book written thousands of years ago with no reference to any place in the world other than the middle east. You say the “evolution is implausible”, “your claims can’t be proven”, etc. That all leaves questions, why did god put fossils on earth? For fun? Some things in the evolutionist theory aren’t proven and never will be, but that’s a helluva lot better than religion can say.

When is the last time a government or military decision was not based on religion?

Probably not since religion didn’t exist. The separation of church and state is the best idea since..... Okay, it’s the best idea ever. The last time the church had absolute power, great minds like Galileo was under house-arrest by the Inquisition, and alchemy was banned. In short, science and free literature was at a crawl, if not a complete standstill. And it’s happening now. Stem cell research, genetic research, speaking out against the church, even regular science is under attack. When most of these religions were created, the world didn’t know a whole lot about the world. They thought 5 elements existed, so what do they do? They say a divine entity made it all, because they couldn’t find a better answer. Now that we’re probing deeper into the fabric of the universe, we’re uncovering things that we were previously ignorant of. Now that were have more information, we’re beginning to around more facts in opposition of religion, those who “believe” get panicky that they’re answer to everything might not be the right answer. The problem is, most (99%) of the religious people out there were told all these things when they were defenseless, malleable children. I used to be a Catholic, but then I turned 11.

Science > Religion.

When is the last time a disease was cured by a simple prayer? Was penicillin created from the ether? Did Sir Rutherford discover the nucleus by putting his hands together? Science has benefitted the world much more than religion. Has there ever been a war started over a scientific discovery? Religion causes more wars than anything out there. The 9/11 attacks were spawned out of religion. People say religion helps by giving people hope, but, then again, it’s false hope, so does it really benefit humanity that much?

Religion has been bringing out the big guns on science, mostly because most scientists are atheist. Don't believe me? Look for yourself:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
One guy I talked to said that 60% of all doctors disapprove evolutionism (the actual number turned out to be a lot lower, but bear with me). Yes, but this is flawed because doctors view not only the most complex organism of all, but only the end result, not the steps up to it.

Here's a good theory I JUST came up with, unless it's somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure I didn't read it anywhere.

Toy poodles.

Damn right, toy poodles. These little *****s couldn't survive for a minute in the wild. They couldn't have been created by God, their species would be wiped out immeadiatly. That's because people selectively bred these hellions, the same process evolution utilizes. If people, that horribly inept species that can't get two deutrium atoms to fuse and start a chain reaction, created poodles, so why can't nature manipulate and change species to that extent? if we had a couple thousand years to change wolves into ankle-biters, surely the great mechanism of Nature can create us in a few short milliards (milliard=billion years)
Religion doesn't cause the most suffering, people do.
I can't speak for the other religions, but Christiniaty...correction: TRUE Christianity is a relationship between the individual and the Lord...and then all of us who have that relationship are connected in teh fact that we are God's children...that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
You don't have to be apart of any church to be a Christian, its a great way to be surronded by other (true) Christians and through those relationships they can help you grow in the Lord.
Granted, I am not denying the fact that people, and their distorted view of christianity has called a lot of pain in the world.
But that doesn't prove that all religions are bad.

I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion, but what I am trying to get you to do is realize you can't Catagorize religions because of the acts of certain individuals and/or a group of people in that sect. THeir are loving and caring atheist just as their are loving and caring christians/muslims/hindu's etc...

ngdawg said:
Don't know why you didn't enjoy it-I did, actually. (Love the line 'I used to be Catholic-then I turned 11').
To Teen: I will bring up the age issue is this instance because it is relevant. You have a limited life experience. Decisions made are based on that very limited life experience. At some point in your time, you will see illness and death, hard times, wonderful times, and all will require some hard thinking and hard choices. And with them come responsibilities, something most if not all teenagers don't have a lot of. (and I don't mean cooking dinner or walking the dog). You have lived less of a life than a 20 year old who has lived less of one than a 50 year old and things change continuously.
Your beliefs may work for you now, which is fine, if they keep you truly as a charitable, accepting and loving person. Judging by your response, they do not.
You don't know my life experience. I have been through more then msot people go through in a lifetime. My belief in Jesus is what saved me...because believe it or not i was convinced at one point that there was no God, not with all this crap that is going on.

Your beliefs may work for you now, which is fine, if they keep you truly as a charitable, accepting and loving person. Judging by your response, they do not.
He has changed me, and I am not going to be perfect, and certainly not claiming to be. THe devil is out there ready to trip people up when he sees them on the side of God, and as we grow more in Christ...the devil has less and less power over us.
So forgive me when I feel that my opinion is not going ot be taken seriously just because of my age, and i get angry. Treat me like you would anyone else, be fair.
 

ngdawg

conliberaservatarianist
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,149
Reaction score
24
Location
trackside
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
teenonfire4him77 said:
Religion doesn't cause the most suffering, people do.
I can't speak for the other religions, but Christiniaty...correction: TRUE Christianity is a relationship between the individual and the Lord...and then all of us who have that relationship are connected in teh fact that we are God's children...that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
You don't have to be apart of any church to be a Christian, its a great way to be surronded by other (true) Christians and through those relationships they can help you grow in the Lord.
Granted, I am not denying the fact that people, and their distorted view of christianity has called a lot of pain in the world.
But that doesn't prove that all religions are bad.

I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion, but what I am trying to get you to do is realize you can't Catagorize religions because of the acts of certain individuals and/or a group of people in that sect. THeir are loving and caring atheist just as their are loving and caring christians/muslims/hindu's etc...


You don't know my life experience. I have been through more then msot people go through in a lifetime. My belief in Jesus is what saved me...because believe it or not i was convinced at one point that there was no God, not with all this crap that is going on.



He has changed me, and I am not going to be perfect, and certainly not claiming to be. THe devil is out there ready to trip people up when he sees them on the side of God, and as we grow more in Christ...the devil has less and less power over us.
So forgive me when I feel that my opinion is not going ot be taken seriously just because of my age, and i get angry. Treat me like you would anyone else, be fair.
I am as fair as anyone can be as I don't resort (like others here) to name-calling or putting one down because of their beliefs, which seems to be quite the game around these boards.
You are correct, I do not know your experiences, but I do know that you have had only a short time on earth and as a human being, you have barely touched the surface of what lies ahead. And that is why, as I do take your opinions seriously, I take them as they are from whom they are given the worst-case scenarios of what you may have endured to come to this point.
You also have to realize that, as an elder, my and other lives have seen more than you could imagine, which also gives you the job of being fair and unjudging.
If these beliefs work for you-great, but part of being a fair adult in this or any debate is to simply debate, share knowledge and not preach fire and brimstone. Only fair, right?
 
T

teenonfire4him77

ngdawg said:
I am as fair as anyone can be as I don't resort (like others here) to name-calling or putting one down because of their beliefs, which seems to be quite the game around these boards.
You are correct, I do not know your experiences, but I do know that you have had only a short time on earth and as a human being, you have barely touched the surface of what lies ahead. And that is why, as I do take your opinions seriously, I take them as they are from whom they are given the worst-case scenarios of what you may have endured to come to this point.
You also have to realize that, as an elder, my and other lives have seen more than you could imagine, which also gives you the job of being fair and unjudging.
If these beliefs work for you-great, but part of being a fair adult in this or any debate is to simply debate, share knowledge and not preach fire and brimstone. Only fair, right?
I agree completly. I dont recall sharing a personal experience as being 'prechy', but I am sorry if I came off that way.
Realize that I also deserve your respect, I did not laugh or make jokes at the fact that your an atheist, and beleive in something that I believe is untrue, and I expect you to do teh same.
 

Maxmillian

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
ngdawg said:
Don't know why you didn't enjoy it-I did, actually. (Love the line 'I used to be Catholic-then I turned 11').
Yep, that was two years ago. I'm thirteen, I've surprised many people by writing droning essays. I wrote 1,800 words or so on nulear fission theory for my science fair. I didn't win, mostly because the attention span of my teachers is less than mine. In fact, I'm such a strange person that when I was younger, the counselor at our school thought I had Asperger syndrome, a form of High-Functioning Autism(and he might be right).

I usually agree with people who think young'ins are cranially lacking. Adolescents are malleable, and are duped easily. Ever wonder why most teens listen to Greenday, wear jeans, and tote iPods (I, however, listen to Beethoven and The Doors, wear sweatpants, and memorize all my songs, which is infinitely better than any portable hard-drive)?

In the case of teenonfire, this is mostly of a lack of wisdom.

However, view me as an exception. Why? I have wisdom beyond my years (IQ, 128). One can learn all they need in a few short years if they are observant. I have a photographic memory, and I notice and observe every little detail of even the most trivial situations. I can comphensively read faster than my english teacher, and my knowledge of the mainstream sciences are on par with those doing their first year at university in such subjects.

This is a fair warning to everyone on this forum: treat me as you would a grown man.
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
670
Reaction score
0
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I usually agree with people who think young'ins are cranially lacking. Adolescents are malleable, and are duped easily. Ever wonder why most teens listen to Greenday, wear jeans, and tote iPods (I, however, listen to Beethoven and The Doors, wear sweatpants, and memorize all my songs, which is infinitely better than any portable hard-drive)?
Heh. I sincerely doubt you know why most "teens" listen to green day, wear jeans, and tote ipods, or anything else for that matter. No one can verify anything you say, because it's all a lot of hokey anecdotes set forth for the ostensible purpouse of self-aggrandizement. There are people who claim to be master markesmen, archery teachers, and kung-fu experts as well as astrophysicists on the side. Most of which is highly spurious. However, if you must "know," Ipods are fairly convenient, and consumerism is a good thing for the economy. Moreover, jeans are utilitarian depending on the make, are usually comfortable, and well, some people like the rich harmony of GD music.

I don't really see the comfort of sweatpants, and memorizing songs is fairly pointless, unless you feel the overwhelming need to:

A. Waste time
B. Listen to music in your head

However, view me as an exception. Why? I have wisdom beyond my years (IQ, 128). One can learn all they need in a few short years if they are observant. I have a photographic memory, and I notice and observe every little detail of even the most trivial situations. I can comphensively read faster than my english teacher, and my knowledge of the mainstream sciences are on par with those doing their first year at university in such subjects.
Oh yea, I am sure you really do have an IQ of 128. The last one I took said 132, but that really doesn't matter, since I can hardly tie my shoelaces, and IQ is not even an accurate measure of knowledge. If you have such a photographic memory, are so pedantic, and have a mind better that storage media, why cannot you remember simple grammar rules that you would learn in 5th grade, such as the confusion of pronouns. You began your second sentence with "one" and then switched to "they" half-way through the sentence.

The rest of your paragraph is more of the same masturbation material that you promulgated in the first paragraph, which is entirely intended to make people believe you are some prodigy. Most likely you are a liar or someone in desperate need of attention.

This is a fair warning to everyone on this forum: treat me as you would a grown man.
Yea. And I would like a pony. Googling is an almost indistinguishable fascade for real knowledge when online, Mr. Fantastic. Do you really expect anyone to sift through your wank material and believe you? You sound like something farted out of Kim Jong Ill's propaganda matrix.
 
Top Bottom