A Thread About Björn Höcke

[MrNiceGuy]

Ok, there is some news popping up about a guy by the name of Björn Höcke in Germany. Björn Höcke is the head of the Alternative für Deutschland party in the German state of Thuringia. I read that he is leading ahead of a Sept. 1 regional ballot, according to an Aug. 13 survey by the INSA polling group. That puts him in the lead in to be the first postwar far-right politician to win a German state election. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/the-man-who-would-make-germany-right-wing-again-fd2b97f4

So, any Germans here might be able to elucidate on this - what's the big deal? Is this guy really "far right" and what does he believe or propose that is "far right?"

The article in the WSJ points to comments the guy made about opposing immigration to Germany and the push to make Germany "multicultural." I don't see that as "far right." I mean, Germany is Germany - it's natives are Germanic. I don't see any push for multiculturalism in Asia or Africa. It's always puzzled me that Europe and North America are the only regions that have to affirmatively take steps to pluralize their cultures and ethnicities, but nobody ever says -- hey, man, what about China, the Koreas, Japan, India, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, etc. etc etc? They aren't "far right" when they want to protect their indigenous cultural groups and when they don't take affirmative action to bring in European ethnicities or North American ethnicities, etc., they aren't considered racist far rightists.

Anyway - I have no trouble with Hungarians wanting to preserve their Hungarianness, Austrians preserving their Austrianness, Finns preserving their Finnishness, etc., Germans too. Not sure why it's good for some countries, but not others. But, more to the point, what policies does this bloke offer that are considered "far right" in Germany.

​

 

[Tigerace117]

Ok, there is some news popping up about a guy by the name of Björn Höcke in Germany.

“Höcke has links with neo-Nazi circles in Germany.[1][2] Höcke has written with Thorsten Heise, a leader of NPD.[37][38] In 2015 Höcke was accused of having contributed to Heise's journal People in Motion (Volk in Bewegung) and The Reichsbote under a pseudonym ("Landolf Ladig"). Höcke denied having ever written for NPD papers, but refused to give a statutory declaration as demanded by the AfD Federal Executive Board.[39][40]

In a 2014 email to party colleagues, Höcke advocated the abolition of section 86 of the German Criminal Code (which prohibits the spread of propaganda by unconstitutional organizations) and section 130 of the German Criminal Code (which criminalizes incitement to hatred towards other groups).[41] This would also have legalized Holocaust denial, which is illegal in Germany.[42]”

“Höcke gave a speech in Dresden in January 2017, in which, referring to the Holocaust memorial in Berlin (the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe), he stated that "we Germans are the only people in the world who have planted a memorial of shame in the heart of their capital"[43] and suggested that Germans "need to make a 180 degree change in their commemoration policy".[44][45]”

“In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, Höcke claimed that "Hitler was regarded as only bad".[45][48] [49]

Björn Höcke is accused by the Halle (Saale) public prosecutor's office of having proclaimed the slogan: "Everything for our homeland, everything for Saxony-Anhalt, everything for Germany!" at the end of a speech he gave at an election event for his party in Merseburg on May 29, 2021. The slogan "Everything for Germany" ("Alles für Deutschland") was introduced by the SA and its public use is punishable by law in Germany. Höcke claimed he did not know the origin of the saying, and argued he was "completely innocent".[51] [52]He was charged in September 2023 and convicted in May 2024. He was fined €13,000.[53][54][55]”

Björn Höcke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Uh.....seems pretty unequivocally far right to me.

 

[Gozaburo]

Ok, there is some news popping up about a guy by the name of Björn Höcke in Germany. Björn Höcke is the head of the Alternative für Deutschland party in the German state of Thuringia. I read that he is leading ahead of a Sept. 1 regional ballot, according to an Aug. 13 survey by the INSA polling group. That puts him in the lead in to be the first postwar far-right politician to win a German state election. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/the-man-who-would-make-germany-right-wing-again-fd2b97f4

So, any Germans here might be able to elucidate on this - what's the big deal? Is this guy really "far right" and what does he believe or propose that is "far right?"...

It depends on context.

In Western Europe where all politicians are either progressives, neoliberals, or green liberals, then yes he is "far right". Whether "far right" is a legitimate descriptor here is another conversation, as we all know that terms like this are normally used to bad jacket political opponents.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally immoral about a self interested domestic and foreign policy. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with immigration restrictionist policy. If Germans prefer a certain quality of life and cultural fabric and believe that is changed by lots of immigration, they have the right to exercise the levers of their democracy to change policy.

 

[zincwarrior]

Bjorn is not a German name. Auslander Raus!

 

[Chagos]

Höcke is a neo-Nazi, period.

neo-Nazi Höcke

Thread can now be closed as "solved"..

 

[Nomad4Ever]

So, any Germans here might be able to elucidate on this - what's the big deal? Is this guy really "far right" and what does he believe or propose that is "far right?"

The article in the WSJ points to comments the guy made about opposing immigration to Germany and the push to make Germany "multicultural." I don't see that as "far right."

@Tigerace117 provided some good context for this specific individual, but maybe you are just ignorant...but the AfD is literally just the NeoNazi party?

The keep getting banned and arrested because they are just incredibly antisemitic and constantly break Germany's hate speech laws. It is pretty safe to assume that the leader of any part of the AfD is going to be far right. It is like being shocked that a Grand Wizard in the KKK is called far right by the press.

I don't see any push for multiculturalism in Asia or Africa. It's always puzzled me that Europe and North America are the only regions that have to affirmatively take steps to pluralize their cultures and ethnicities

You can't be serious. We carved up Africa with no concern for ethnic groups. Almost every country in Africa is multicultural because we made them so. Ethiopia has 5 official languages and at least 46 spoken languages. India is so multicultural that large parts of the population don't even speak the same language as the other half of the country.

I genuinely have a hard time believing this is an actual opinion anyone who has graduated middle school could sincerely hold.

They aren't "far right" when they want to protect their indigenous cultural groups

Yes they are.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Höcke is a neo-Nazi, period.

neo-Nazi Höcke

Thread can now be closed as "solved"..

Wow, he is legally a fascist and the specific chapter of the AfD he leads is a verified right wing extremist group lol.

The book is full of radical statements and was later used as the basis for a court ruling in 2019 that Björn Höcke can legally be described as a "fascist," based on a "verifiable factual basis." The Thuringian regional AfD chapter has been classified as "verified right-wing extremist" by the state's intelligence agency, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.

Man, no wonder he is in charge of that AfD chapter. He has the Fascist certifications straight from the state. Those are some strong credentials.

 

[BitterPill]

Höcke is a neo-Nazi, period.

neo-Nazi Höcke

Thread can now be closed as "solved"..

Rubbish.

Höcke is a German equivalent to those 'very fine people' from the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville that Trump lauded:

Left wing fact checker admits Trump never called Charlottesville neo-Nazis ‘very fine people’

“While Trump did say that there were ‘very fine people on both sides,’ he also specifically noted that he was not talking about neo-Nazis and white supremacists and said they should be &#8216…

nypost.com

MAGA.

 

[german hick]

you forgot to post a picture

 

[german hick]

Bjorn is not a German name. Auslander Raus!

That´s the reason we call him Bernd. - (was a missspelling in a comedy show that became such a running gag, that even in the news he was accidently called "Bernd" )

 

[german hick]

It depends on context.

In Western Europe where all politicians are either progressives, neoliberals, or green liberals, then yes he is "far right". Whether "far right" is a legitimate descriptor here is another conversation, as we all know that terms like this are normally used to bad jacket political opponents.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally immoral about a self interested domestic and foreign policy. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with immigration restrictionist policy. If Germans prefer a certain quality of life and cultural fabric and believe that is changed by lots of immigration, they have the right to exercise the levers of their democracy to change policy.

sorry for getting personal, but may it be you call yourself "moderate" in trying to shift the center in a specific direction?

 

[Juin]

Bjorn is not a German name. Auslander Raus!

How'd you know? I am impressed

 

[Juin]

That´s the reason we call him Bernd. - (was a missspelling in a comedy show that became such a running gag, that even in the news he was accidently called "Bernd" )

If Bjorn is not a German, then where is it from? And is Hocke a German name?

 

[german hick]

If Bjorn is not a German, then where is it from? And is Hocke a German name?

Scandinavian - I think Höcke is German - it has an "ö"

 

[Juin]

Scandinavian - I think Höcke is German - it has an "ö"

Danke Schon. Lol they both- Bjorn and Schon- sounded German to me.

 

[german hick]

Danke Schon. Lol they both- Bjorn and Schon- sounded German to me.

In original, Björn is written with a scandinavian letter we don´t have here. Some kind of a canceled o

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Höcke is a neo-Nazi, period.

neo-Nazi Höcke

Thread can now be closed as "solved"..

I would be concerned as a voter if he was using the exact phrase of an SA slogan which was barred by the law.

Is there any defense of this? I have never heard the slogan "Everything for Germany" associated with the SA. I was familiar with famous phras Deutschland Uber Alles (Germany Over All), but I the one they fined him for I was unaware of. How prominent is that slogal in terms of general understanding among the Germany people? Is it something that he "had to know what he was doing" kind of thing?

He seems to deny knowing it was a banned slogan. Is there a list, or was this an ad hoc determination by the Court?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

In original, Björn is written with a scandinavian letter we don´t have here. Some kind of a canceled o

That's how I cut and pasted from the article I read. Not sure how he really spells his name, but if he identifies as a Scandinavian, who are we to not affirm his identity?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

@Tigerace117 provided some good context for this specific individual, but maybe you are just ignorant...but the AfD is literally just the NeoNazi party?

Well, plainly, as I do not follow every fringe party from every country, and I think the OP is clear that I had never heard of this fellow before. I never heard of him, his party, or even the state in Germany which the article referenced.

There is nothing wrong with being ignorant of things, as no person knows everything. Some things we're just unaware of, and a small time politician an some eastern German state who might make a splash at some point is not someone that makes it high up on the charts of what is important to people outside of Germany. So, if you're trying to insult me, try again.

The keep getting banned and arrested because they are just incredibly antisemitic and constantly break Germany's hate speech laws.

I'd be interested to see what it is they are getting fined for.

As much as I would certainly not support a party that is fascist and uses known Nazi slogans, I do support free speech, and I would actually prefer they use the Nazi slogan proudly and openly - and I would rather they publicly state their antisemitism -- so I know who they are and who to avoid. I don't agree with hate speech laws, but this isn't really a thread about hate speech laws per se. I was just trying to figure out what the fuss was about.

It is pretty safe to assume that the leader of any part of the AfD is going to be far right. It is like being shocked that a Grand Wizard in the KKK is called far right by the press.

Nothing is "safe to assume." Any allegation needs evidence. It isn't quite like the Grand Wizard of the KKK being called far right by the press, because Hocke himself apparently doesn't claim to be the leader of a racist organization. A Grand Wizard by definition would be that. In other words, if you're just assuming it because he is the leader of the AfD, then you are begging the question, because the question in the OP asked for what views they hold and what things have they said that makes them what they are accused to be. So far, there hasn't been much identified, other than the catch-phrase he was fined for and the general accusation (from their political opponents) that the are the bad folks that they claim to be.

You can't be serious. We carved up Africa with no concern for ethnic groups. Almost every country in Africa is multicultural because we made them so. Ethiopia has 5 official languages and at least 46 spoken languages.

Ethiopia's languages predate colonialism. Afar, Amharic, Oromo, Somali, and Tigrinya - those are African languages. The Italians were in there for a few years, but they lost it when they lost in WW2. Their languages are African. There are barely any white people in Ethiopia at all.

India is so multicultural that large parts of the population don't even speak the same language as the other half of the country.

Sure, they have cultures within their ethnic populations that are native to their own country, but they don't import ethnicities to become multicultural.

I genuinely have a hard time believing this is an actual opinion anyone who has graduated middle school could sincerely hold.


Yes they are.

Canada has always had laws to protect Canadian culture and ethnicities. They aren't racist, but they protect their distinct Canadian society and cultures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_cultural_protectionism Not "right wing." I woldn't expect other countries, like Japan, to be affirmative programs to increase their white population, would you? How many Syrians is Japan looking to bring in? A total of like 1100 live in Japan altogether. In the US, we have about 70,000 people born in Syria living in the US. For the US to have the same population of Syrians as Japan has relative to population - the US would only have about 3,000. Japan is mostly racially/ethnically homogeneous, and yet they are not generally called upon by the Progressive Left to change that-- for example.

 

[Chagos]

I would be concerned as a voter if he was using the exact phrase of an SA slogan which was barred by the law.

Is there any defense of this? I have never heard the slogan "Everything for Germany" associated with the SA.

Most Germans (AFAIK) with knowledge of history are fully aware of the meaning and context.

I was familiar with famous phras Deutschland Uber Alles (Germany Over All),

That one, interestingly perhaps, was written in1841 and the "Germany overall" passage in the first verse referred to the desire of having a German state, rather than the hodge podge of petty principalities that existed at the time. Not at all directed at supremacy over other nations.

That particular passage is no longer sung but the Nazis, of course, used it with enthusiasm.

but I the one they fined him for I was unaware of. How prominent is that slogal in terms of general understanding among the Germany people? Is it something that he "had to know what he was doing" kind of thing?

Yes, he's a history teacher.

He seems to deny knowing it was a banned slogan. Is there a list, or was this an ad hoc determination by the Court?

Like all neo-Nazis he always denies the obvious. It's their go-to strategy for wishing to appear harmless.

The court worked in accordance with the law that includes this particular slogan.

 

[Chagos]

Scandinavian - I think Höcke is German - it has an "ö"

Björn means bear, Höcke means asshole.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Most Germans (AFAIK) with knowledge of history are fully aware of the meaning and context.

Ok, but is there a reference to that exact phrase being used by the SA. I am fairly knowledgeable about WW2, and I never heard that exact phrasse.

That one, interestingly perhaps, was written in1841 and the "Germany overall" passage in the first verse referred to the desire of having a German state, rather than the hodge podge of petty principalities that existed at the time. Not at all directed at supremacy over other nations.

That particular passage is no longer sung but the Nazis, of course, used it with enthusiasm.


Yes, he's a history teacher.

Like all neo-Nazis he always denies the obvious. It's their go-to strategy for wishing to appear harmless.

The court worked in accordance with the law that includes this particular slogan.

Maybe so, but when you say the Court worked in accordance with the law -- is this slogan, like, actually listed as banned - the exact words?

Anyway - I was able to find Alles fur Deutschland -- the SA had it on their daggers. Strange I must have forgotten it over the years. I am now recovering a vague recollection of it, from when I studied WW2 informally. I was a teenager and read quite a lot about WW2 having had my interest piqued by a neighbor who had fought in combat in Europe. I was fascinated by some pieces that he had managed to save from the War, including a helmet, a bayonet, and some other pieces.

Not cool to use Nazi Stormtrooper slogans, IMO.

I am still curious about their party platform or political views, but I would think a German would generally know which things were specifically banned. I don't agree with banning even Nazi slogans, but I do not agree with using them.

 

[Rumpelstil]

Danke Schon. Lol they both- Bjorn and Schon- sounded German to me.

i give you some ööööö

 

[Chagos]

Ok, but is there a reference to that exact phrase being used by the SA. I am fairly knowledgeable about WW2, and I never heard that exact phrasse.

As far as your knowledge of WW2 is concerned, you need to consider that the SA was already liquidated (in the true sense of the word) well before that, in fact at the end of 1934 in a venture commonly referred to as "night of the long knives" .

Hitler had the whole leadership and even many others murdered.

Maybe so, but when you say the Court worked in accordance with the law -- is this slogan, like, actually listed as banned - the exact words?

No idea what your beef is here, if German law outlaws the use of Nazi slogans, it outlaws their use. If you want to implement a thesaurus on this, give it a try.

Anyway - I was able to find Alles fur Deutschland -- the SA had it on their daggers. Strange I must have forgotten it over the years. I am now recovering a vague recollection of it, from when I studied WW2 informally. I was a teenager and read quite a lot about WW2 having had my interest piqued by a neighbor who had fought in combat in Europe. I was fascinated by some pieces that he had managed to save from the War, including a helmet, a bayonet, and some other pieces.

Not cool to use Nazi Stormtrooper slogans, IMO.

I am still curious about their party platform or political views, but I would think a German would generally know which things were specifically banned. I don't agree with banning even Nazi slogans, but I do not agree with using them.

Well, I'm not German but have worked (and consequently lived) there for some years. So I feel quite confident that most Germans wouldn't be particularly bothered over what someone the other side of the pond thinks of their speech laws.

As to their (AfD) political views, that's already been covered.

 

[Chagos]

In original, Björn is written with a scandinavian letter we don´t have here. Some kind of a canceled o

The Scandinavian "ø" can be generated by pressing Alt+0248 on the numbers pad of your keyboard (you have to turn that on first of all, though).