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A REALLY bad day for liberals

I concede that it is not a purely partisan phenomenon.

However, i would be remiss to claim that the republican party is not more pronounced in the idea of giving as much money to the rich as possible, e aisle.

(head scratcher). Giving?
I guess the liberal mindset is that all earnings are the rightful domain of the king and the king , in his benifence, let's the earner keep some. Tthat's giving I suppose?
 
Dude.. look at your own chart..

the lowest quintile paid.. 3%
the second quintile.. paid an effective rate of 9%
the Middle paid 12%
the fourth paid 15%
And the highest paid 20%

Lets see.. the poor and middleclass pay 3% to 9 percent

The highest quintel pay 20 %.. So from 6x to 2x MORE in percentage than the poor and middle class.

Yet you claim its not progressive.. :doh

Wait.. I see.. so its progressive all the way for the top 1% of americans...

but because 400 people.. frigging 400 people out of the whole united states.... their effective tax rate went down due to capital gains... you claim its not progressive.. even though by the way.. that rate is STILL 5 x higher than the percentage the lowest quintile pays!

I can tell you from many discussions with liberals over the years, you are tilting at windmills.
As long as sombody can 'affford' to pay more ,they aren't paying their 'fair share' and thus could be taxed more. This is just because the govt acts in the common good and the wealthy only in self interest.
 
(head scratcher). Giving?
I guess the liberal mindset is that all earnings are the rightful domain of the king and the king , in his benifence, let's the earner keep some. Tthat's giving I suppose?

Yes, GIVING.

Going to the tax law, changing the law so that your friend Bill Gates gets to reduce his tax burden by a million dollars has the EXACT SAME EFFECT as the Federal Government simply gifting Billy a million dollars tax free.

That's another million dollars pushing us toward budget deficit.

That's another million dollars in Bill Gates hands.

I'm not sure how any independent thinker can possibly conclude anything else.
 
lowest quintile paid.. 3%
second quintile.. paid an effective rate of 9%
Middle paid 12%
fourth paid 15%
the highest paid 20%

How would you feel about numbers like these:

lowest quintile 3%
second quintile 8%
Middle 13%
fourth 16%
highest 25%
highest five percent 28%
highest one percent 36%

I'm not saying it would raise a lot of revenue, but if it pulled in an extra $60-80 billion annually, that would fund about half of what I'd like to see, at a minimum, added to the budget for education, infrastructure, and research. I'd then be looking for more growth out of that spending, and one of those virtuous cycles.

I think people earning more than a million dollars a year (the top one percent) should be encouraged by the tax code to make this important contribution to the capitalist society that values their skill, hard work, and public-minded participation in wealth creation for all Americans.
 
How would you feel about numbers like these:

lowest quintile 3%
second quintile 8%
Middle 13%
fourth 16%
highest 25%
highest five percent 28%
highest one percent 36%

I'm not saying it would raise a lot of revenue, but if it pulled in an extra $60-80 billion annually, that would fund about half of what I'd like to see, at a minimum, added to the budget for education, infrastructure, and research. I'd then be looking for more growth out of that spending, and one of those virtuous cycles.

I think people earning more than a million dollars a year (the top one percent) should be encouraged by the tax code to make this important contribution to the capitalist society that values their skill, hard work, and public-minded participation in wealth creation for all Americans.

There is NO excuse to limiting access to education by a refusal to publicly fund it. It is the BEST long-term investment of money, it is in the BEST interest of the American public, and it's shown great results in Germany.

Limiting access to higher education through letting individuals foot the bill plainly reduces the eligible pool of potential students- the students at the best colleges aren't there based on merit, they're there based on a combination of both eligibility to pay and merit with a strong reliance on eligibility to pay.
 
So, we can better handle the debt than the Greeks can, but we still have way too much of it.

That first point was exactly my reason for bringing that up. I agree with the second point. There's an easy way to drastically reduce that debt. It was how the even more massive per capita debt was after WWII. In 1946 our national debt stood a $14T and our population was 141M. That means the per capita debt was right at $100,000. It's called taxation. It's how every war has been paid for since the country started.
 
How would you feel about numbers like these:

lowest quintile 3%
second quintile 8%
Middle 13%
fourth 16%
highest 25%
highest five percent 28%
highest one percent 36%

I'm not saying it would raise a lot of revenue, but if it pulled in an extra $60-80 billion annually, that would fund about half of what I'd like to see, at a minimum, added to the budget for education, infrastructure, and research. I'd then be looking for more growth out of that spending, and one of those virtuous cycles.

I think people earning more than a million dollars a year (the top one percent) should be encouraged by the tax code to make this important contribution to the capitalist society that values their skill, hard work, and public-minded participation in wealth creation for all Americans.

We had higher marginal rates at the top than that from 1993-2001, had the longest sustained economic growth in history in those 8 years, 22 million jobs created and the last 4 years produced a total of around $500B in revenue surpluses. Republican fiscal policy during the Reagan/Bush and later Bush disasters has been a complete catastrophe for this country (and that's not counting the military and economic cluster****s they spawned).
 
I concede that it is not a purely partisan phenomenon.

However, i would be remiss to claim that the republican party is not more pronounced in the idea of giving as much money to the rich as possible, under the assumption that what's good for the rich is good for everyone. This is the cornerstone of supply-side economics and it's not a stance that has equal endorsement on the other side of the aisle.

You, like every other Leftist is clueless when it comes to Supply side economics.

Your opposition is based on a partisan knee jerk response more than it is a comprehensive understanding of what drives Free market economies.

If you oppose Supply side economics on principle, what's the chance that you ever spent more than 3 minutes trying to understand how it works ?

Supply side does work and it works well. Incentivizing private sector investment leads to job creation.

The State of Texas has led the Nation in Job Creation for most of Obama's Presidency.

And thats includes high paying jobs.

A great State run by Conservatives it applies Supply side principles and it shows.

Economic refugees from all over the US have picked up everything they own and have moved here looking for opportunities that are not available in their Blue Plague States.

If Supply side doesn't work ( it most definitely does ) whats the alternative ?

Arbitrary Government spending on infrastructure ? Nationalization of major industries so the Government can " guarantee " employment ?
 
You, like every other Leftist is clueless when it comes to Supply side economics.

Your opposition is based on a partisan knee jerk response more than it is a comprehensive understanding of what drives Free market economies.

If you oppose Supply side economics on principle, what's the chance that you ever spent more than 3 minutes trying to understand how it works ?

Supply side does work and it works well. Incentivizing private sector investment leads to job creation.

The State of Texas has led the Nation in Job Creation for most of Obama's Presidency.

And thats includes high paying jobs.

A great State run by Conservatives it applies Supply side principles and it shows.

Economic refugees from all over the US have picked up everything they own and have moved here looking for opportunities that are not available in their Blue Plague States.

If Supply side doesn't work ( it most definitely does ) whats the alternative ?

Arbitrary Government spending on infrastructure ? Nationalization of major industries so the Government can " guarantee " employment ?

Actually that has more to do with national resources than smart investment, innovation, or production.

Supply side economics failed under President Reagan. That's why he famously raised taxes later on.

Supply side economics failed again under President Bush 2.

The alternative is to collect taxes using a progressive scheme, and use the taxes to provide services that enable American individuals the financial security that provides the freedom to pursue education, to formulate business plans, and to put Americans to work.
 
That first point was exactly my reason for bringing that up. I agree with the second point. There's an easy way to drastically reduce that debt. It was how the even more massive per capita debt was after WWII. In 1946 our national debt stood a $14T and our population was 141M. That means the per capita debt was right at $100,000. It's called taxation. It's how every war has been paid for since the country started.
Yes, but first the war tax has to be blamed on something else.
 
Hold on a second.

You're claiming that our tax system has gotten increasingly progressive over time, correct?

The capital gains tax rates and dividend tax rates, over time, tell a different story. Moreover, ignoring the changes in wealth and income distributions allows you to make misleading claims about how "progressive" tax policy changes have been.

Yeah.. wrong.. because while capital gains rates have decreased taxes for the rich.. the poor and middle classes have also has a great decreases in taxes... something you conveniently forget in your ideology.. as pointed out by the CBPP..That's why they have become more progressive because while the rich have had a decrease in taxes.. so have the poor and middle class.. which has caused the burden of taxes to fall more heavily on the rich.

Fact.

There is no "ignoring changes in wealth and income distributions".. from me.. I am simply providing facts that you find uncomfortable because they don't fit your ideology.
 
How would you feel about numbers like these:

lowest quintile 3%
second quintile 8%
Middle 13%
fourth 16%
highest 25%
highest five percent 28%
highest one percent 36%

I'm not saying it would raise a lot of revenue, but if it pulled in an extra $60-80 billion annually, that would fund about half of what I'd like to see, at a minimum, added to the budget for education, infrastructure, and research. I'd then be looking for more growth out of that spending, and one of those virtuous cycles.

I think people earning more than a million dollars a year (the top one percent) should be encouraged by the tax code to make this important contribution to the capitalist society that values their skill, hard work, and public-minded participation in wealth creation for all Americans.

how about this..

Lowest 0
Second 0
Middle 3% of all income
fourth: 6% of all income
and beyond that 17% of all income

That's basically a flat tax with a 50,000 deduction for everyone. It would bring in billions extra and probably would actually need to be lower than 17% because of all the income it would capture.

tie it to a balanced budget amendment or law that the percentage of tax must increase with spending increases.
 
how about this..

Lowest 0
Second 0
Middle 3% of all income
fourth: 6% of all income
and beyond that 17% of all income

That's basically a flat tax with a 50,000 deduction for everyone. It would bring in billions extra and probably would actually need to be lower than 17% because of all the income it would capture.

tie it to a balanced budget amendment or law that the percentage of tax must increase with spending increases.

I like it.
But, how could it possibly bring in more in revenues than the government has now?
 
Actually that has more to do with national resources than smart investment, innovation, or production.

Supply side economics failed under President Reagan. That's why he famously raised taxes later on.

Supply side economics failed again under President Bush 2.

The alternative is to collect taxes using a progressive scheme, and use the taxes to provide services that enable American individuals the financial security that provides the freedom to pursue education, to formulate business plans, and to put Americans to work.


No, it has more to do with Texas's Conservative Governor and GOP State House using the principles of Supply Side economics to incentivize new private sector investment. For example, Texas offered Toyota a 40 Million dollar tax break so they would spend 300 Million dollars building their new headquarters in Plano Texas.

It also provided 3000 well paying Jobs for Texans and Californians. That's called a " investment " and that's how supply side works.

Your " alternative " ? It's ridiculous. And you have the nerve to critique Supply side.

Your saying that if the Rich pay more, the Government will offer these " services " that put Americans to work ? What "services " ?? Your saying that if the Rich pay more taxes, Americans will magically gain " financial security " and from the Government no less ?

How does that work ??

Your just offering up a bunch of generic ideological nonsense. It's just more redistribution. Ridiculous progressive policies predicated on toxic human emotions like Envy and hatred that NEVER work.

When the Socialist kook French President François Hollande raised taxes on " the rich " to 75 %, did it fix income disparity ? Did it offer up a sense of " financial security " for the Middle Class ? Nope.

It of-course backfired big time as all Progressive initiatives do.

​France to quietly give up Hollande's flagship 75% 'supertax' — RT News

Foreign investment dropped off the following year by 75 %.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-30/foreign-investment-france-crashes-77-2013-most-record-26-year-lows

Liberals should be limited to things like Arts and crafts, creative writing, etc. NOT be allowed to affect economic policy on a National Scale. The damage that left wing policies can do is incredible.

Progressive policies ran two iconic American Financial institutions Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into the ground. The Democrat party bankrupted the GSEs with the same " economic and social justice " nonsense that defines most initiatives that come from the left.
 
Yes, but first the war tax has to be blamed on something else.

Isn't at least $2T (and climbing) of our accumulated debt due to just the borrowing and interest on Bush's Grand Cluster**** of Iraq alone? Just raising taxes on the wealthy to pay that off in 5 years would be a great start on debt reduction. Adding the tax cuts and the massive deficit spending in general from the Reagan and Bush presidencies account for at least half of our current debt so if rightwingers were really serious about entire debt reduction undoing all those tax cuts is the solution. It's the principle reason we have the debt we have now.
 
Isn't at least $2T (and climbing) of our accumulated debt due to just the borrowing and interest on Bush's Grand Cluster**** of Iraq alone? Just raising taxes on the wealthy to pay that off in 5 years would be a great start on debt reduction. Adding the tax cuts and the massive deficit spending in general from the Reagan and Bush presidencies account for at least half of our current debt so if rightwingers were really serious about entire debt reduction undoing all those tax cuts is the solution. It's the principle reason we have the debt we have now.
Well, yes, it probably is.

But, we must find something else to blame for all that money wasted. Otherwise, how are we going to have another limited, unfunded, and unnecessary war in the future? War is peace, you know.
 
You, like every other Leftist is clueless when it comes to Supply side economics.

Your opposition is based on a partisan knee jerk response more than it is a comprehensive understanding of what drives Free market economies.

If you oppose Supply side economics on principle, what's the chance that you ever spent more than 3 minutes trying to understand how it works ?

Supply side does work and it works well. Incentivizing private sector investment leads to job creation.

The State of Texas has led the Nation in Job Creation for most of Obama's Presidency.

And thats includes high paying jobs.

A great State run by Conservatives it applies Supply side principles and it shows.

Economic refugees from all over the US have picked up everything they own and have moved here looking for opportunities that are not available in their Blue Plague States.

If Supply side doesn't work ( it most definitely does ) whats the alternative ?

Arbitrary Government spending on infrastructure ? Nationalization of major industries so the Government can " guarantee " employment ?

Supply side economics---oh yeah, that what Reagan used to triple the national debt and BushII to double it again. Right. Here's a little reality check about that TX "miracle":

Texas has a gross state product of $1.648 trillion (2014)[15] the second highest in the U.S.[16][17] Texas's household income was $48,259 in 2010 ranking 25th in the nation. The state debt in 2012 was calculated to be $121.7 billion, or $7,400 per taxpayer.[18]

So, that's what a supply side economy works: great for millionaires, ****ty for everyone else. Here's a Forbes article that shows the TX ranks 3rd from their very perspective behind two very "blue" states WA (no.1) and MN (no. 2) in "best places to work in the country."
The Best And Worst States To Make A Living In 2014 - Forbes

Median income in CA, the no. 1 GDP state in the country, was over $60,000 in 2013. The percentage of people making less than 100% of the poverty level in TX is 16.8 and below 50% of the pov. level 6.7. In CA, the percentages are 14.9 and 6.6. There's no TX miracle. There's just rightwing, supply-side spinning of one.

Supply side economics was the greatest fiscal hoax and failure ever perpetrated on this country.
 
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Well, yes, it probably is.

But, we must find something else to blame for all that money wasted. Otherwise, how are we going to have another limited, unfunded, and unnecessary war in the future? War is peace, you know.

Okay, I see what you're doin' there.
 
how about this..

Lowest 0
Second 0
Middle 3% of all income
fourth: 6% of all income
and beyond that 17% of all income

I think income shares in a typical year look something like this:

top 1% — 21%
96-99 — 16%
81-95 — 22%
second — 19%
third — 11.5%
fourth — 7%
bottom — 3.5%

Applying a GDP of $17.7 trillion, that yields income shares of:

top 1% — $3.72 trillion
96-99 — 2.83
81-95 — 3.89
second — 3.36
third — 2.04
fourth — 1.24
bottom — .62

Under that breakdown, yer proposal would bring in less than $900 billion. Mine would generate just a bit more than $4 trillion, enough to cover the president's FY2016 proposal. In other words, a balanced budget. Worked out better than I thought.

Now these are of course rough calculations, but it does look like my rates would produce a few hundred billion more in annual revenues. I'm guessing you see them as too burdensome.

+++++

Just to make it easier to see how I got those numbers, here's my proposal again, with the revenue projections, in trillions, included:

lowest quintile 3% — .0186
second quintile 8% — .0992
Middle 13% — .2652
fourth 16% — .5376
highest 25% — .9725
highest five percent 28% — .7924
highest one percent 36% — 1.3392

TOTAL — 4.025

+++++

The super rich are mere fodder for mindless Democrat voters.

Do you mean "fodder" in the sense of something useful for only one particular purpose? I see them as useful for a number of purposes. I figure they, as a group, tend to be creative, hard-working, and very effective at generating wealth, both for themselves and for others. Since they manage to get their hands on more than twenty percent of national income, I do see them as a good source of funding for the public sector.

>>You need to evolve beyond simple rhetoric you hear on your cable news channels.

I'm guessing a lot of the liberal opinion expressed here comes from other sources.
 
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H
The super rich are mere fodder for mindless Democrat voters. You need to evolve beyond simple rhetoric you hear on your cable news channels.

Those poor oppressed rich people.
 
Yes, GIVING.

Going to the tax law, changing the law so that your friend Bill Gates gets to reduce his tax burden by a million dollars has the EXACT SAME EFFECT as the Federal Government simply gifting Billy a million dollars tax free.

That's another million dollars pushing us toward budget deficit.

That's another million dollars in Bill Gates hands.

I'm not sure how any independent thinker can possibly conclude anything else.
So was the previous tax law TAKING then? Or that was just the gov't rightful share?
 
Do you mean "fodder" in the sense of something useful for only one particular purpose? I see them as useful for a number of purposes. I figure they, as a group, tend to be creative, hard-working, and very effective at generating wealth, both for themselves and for others. Since they manage to get their hands on more than twenty percent of national income, I do see them as a good source of funding for the public sector.

We have examples of schemes for compensating public employees that are pretty much abject failures in that within a generation or two they result in massive indebtedness pinned on the next generation. We should fund the government services we can afford to fund, not pay for it by creating liabilities for people who aren't old enough to vote yet.

Those poor oppressed rich people.

It's a red herring argument to bleat some more about the super rich in a thread that highlights state and/or municipal governmental sector fiscal problems.
 
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